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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 10:06:17 GMT -5
re: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/128917/threadATA is not a practice. It's just another reminder appearing like a loud CAW! from a crow or a horn or stubbing your toe or tender succulance in a kiss.... Only it takes place via thinking and not via the 5 sensations. No effort is needed. It's a label that happens as attention shifts to sensations and perceptions. Frustration is a set of qualia that happens when the signified is never attained. Enlightenment is never attained. ATA is not the vehicle to Enlightenment. It is just a passing thought as thinking is left behind. A good baker puts his best bread out front. A tennis pro demonstrates his skills on the court. ATA is ZD's contribution to our mental landscape. Personalamente, I don't see ATA as out of the ballpark of Mindfulness teachings. ATA emphasizes the contrast between sensations and thinking moreso than mindfulness, but the activity is very similar.
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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 11:19:41 GMT -5
re: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/128917/threadATA is not a practice. It's just another reminder appearing like a loud CAW! from a crow or a horn or stubbing your toe or tender succulance in a kiss.... Only it takes place via thinking and not via the 5 sensations. No effort is needed. It's a label that happens as attention shifts to sensations and perceptions. Frustration is a set of qualia that happens when the signified is never attained. Enlightenment is never attained. ATA is not the vehicle to Enlightenment. It is just a passing thought as thinking is left behind. A good baker puts his best bread out front. A tennis pro demonstrates his skills on the court. ATA is ZD's contribution to our mental landscape. Personalamente, I don't see ATA as out of the ballpark of Mindfulness teachings. ATA emphasizes the contrast between sensations and thinking moreso than mindfulness, but the activity is very similar. My response is on that thread. I think ATA can be applied as a practice. Like lifting weights, the more you ATA, the stronger you'll be at resisting the mind's siren call and more aware of when the mind is running amok.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 11:24:29 GMT -5
re: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/128917/threadATA is not a practice. It's just another reminder appearing like a loud CAW! from a crow or a horn or stubbing your toe or tender succulance in a kiss.... Only it takes place via thinking and not via the 5 sensations. No effort is needed. It's a label that happens as attention shifts to sensations and perceptions. Frustration is a set of qualia that happens when the signified is never attained. Enlightenment is never attained. ATA is not the vehicle to Enlightenment. It is just a passing thought as thinking is left behind. A good baker puts his best bread out front. A tennis pro demonstrates his skills on the court. ATA is ZD's contribution to our mental landscape. Personalamente, I don't see ATA as out of the ballpark of Mindfulness teachings. ATA emphasizes the contrast between sensations and thinking moreso than mindfulness, but the activity is very similar. My response is on that thread. I think ATA can be applied as a practice. Like lifting weights, the more you ATA, the stronger you'll be at resisting the mind's siren call and more aware of when the mind is running amok. Train in ATA to up your NPMs. Don't you think 'practice' has a whole lotta volition in it? I'm just saying that if you happen to be reading Bob's books or hang out here or stumble on the zd gita, you'll possibly then have a new handle for a phenomena that happens. Maybe NPMs go up, maybe not. My opinion is that ATA is a great little reminder. It's a clear signpost. It puts things in perspective (and that's part of its effectiveness and clarity).
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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 11:36:04 GMT -5
My response is on that thread. I think ATA can be applied as a practice. Like lifting weights, the more you ATA, the stronger you'll be at resisting the mind's siren call and more aware of when the mind is running amok. Train in ATA to up your NPMs. Don't you think 'practice' has a whole lotta volition in it? I'm just saying that if you happen to be reading Bob's books or hang out here or stumble on the zd gita, you'll possibly then have a new handle for a phenomena that happens. Maybe NPMs go up, maybe not. My opinion is that ATA is a great little reminder. It's a clear signpost. It puts things in perspective (and that's part of its effectiveness and clarity). The "volition" follows the inspiration to practice, or intentionally cultivating the environment to induce thoughts and reminders of "Oh its time to practice ATA". On Saturdays I sit up at the coffee shop where they do the zen sit in the back room. I'm right there when it comes time, nothing else is vying for my attention. Ultimately I'm just following inspiration or self-maintenance routines. But before I got to this point, it was a chore to fight the mind in my initial practice. Still following inspiration, but the mind didn't want to sit and be still. Even getting into energy work, there was a part of me that was freaking out. The mind has calmed down a lot, but not completely.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 13:50:14 GMT -5
My response is on that thread. I think ATA can be applied as a practice. Like lifting weights, the more you ATA, the stronger you'll be at resisting the mind's siren call and more aware of when the mind is running amok. Train in ATA to up your NPMs. Don't you think 'practice' has a whole lotta volition in it? I'm just saying that if you happen to be reading Bob's books or hang out here or stumble on the zd gita, you'll possibly then have a new handle for a phenomena that happens. Maybe NPMs go up, maybe not. My opinion is that ATA is a great little reminder. It's a clear signpost. It puts things in perspective (and that's part of its effectiveness and clarity). You would say it is effective would you? On what grounds? Did you self-realize (or whatever you like to call it) using this technique, or know somebody who has (apart from ZD himself)? I think it makes sense to starve the sense of self out, but I couldn't comment as to whether it is 'effective', hence the question to you. Or do you mean 'effective' in some other way?
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 14:05:05 GMT -5
I don't understand why people think that ATA is not a practise. It obviously is, there is nothing to debate here.
ATA is basically paying attention to qualia and ignoring thoughts in the hope that one day a miracle will happen and enlightenment occurs. It really is as primitive as that. Obviously it is an activity that is extremely difficult to sustain. There are only two solutions. Either the desire is greater than the pain, or, as they hope, miraculously ATA grows into an automatism.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 14:09:38 GMT -5
Train in ATA to up your NPMs. Don't you think 'practice' has a whole lotta volition in it? I'm just saying that if you happen to be reading Bob's books or hang out here or stumble on the zd gita, you'll possibly then have a new handle for a phenomena that happens. Maybe NPMs go up, maybe not. My opinion is that ATA is a great little reminder. It's a clear signpost. It puts things in perspective (and that's part of its effectiveness and clarity). You would say it is effective would you? On what grounds? Did you self-realize (or whatever you like to call it) using this technique, or know somebody who has (apart from ZD himself)? I think it makes sense to starve the sense of self out, but I couldn't comment as to whether it is 'effective', hence the question to you. Or do you mean 'effective' in some other way? I don't claim to know anything about Realization or Truth or any other capitalized thingy. And I don't mean that in some clever way referring to the meaning of 'know.' I just can't imagine a way of genuinely applying those type of terms to anything I've experienced, or state of being or whatever. To me ATA has been useful for providing a clear perspective around reconnecting to presence. It's effective in this way because it clearly encapsulates the activity of presence. Just nonconceptual awareness. Attending the actual (where actual is sensory experience, or as Bambi put it: qualia minus thinking). Whereas 'Mindfulness,' in my understanding, points to the same activity, it also brings with it a cloud of confusion and alternate meanings and a context of buddhism and theory and such. I do think by intentionally intending to ATA, my NPMs have increased. Maybe I'm fooling myself. Moreso than Enlightenment, I resonate with ZD's concept of being a man of action. 100% attention to whatever is happening. ATA just seems to be that in practice. And, as I understand the model, the pattern of thinking that distracts one from being a man of action loses it's grip with ATA.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 14:12:16 GMT -5
What is NPM?
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 14:18:56 GMT -5
You would say it is effective would you? On what grounds? Did you self-realize (or whatever you like to call it) using this technique, or know somebody who has (apart from ZD himself)? I think it makes sense to starve the sense of self out, but I couldn't comment as to whether it is 'effective', hence the question to you. Or do you mean 'effective' in some other way? I don't claim to know anything about Realization or Truth or any other capitalized thingy. And I don't mean that in some clever way referring to the meaning of 'know.' I just can't imagine a way of genuinely applying those type of terms to anything I've experienced, or state of being or whatever. To me ATA has been useful for providing a clear perspective around reconnecting to presence. It's effective in this way because it clearly encapsulates the activity of presence. Just nonconceptual awareness. Attending the actual (where actual is sensory experience, or as Bambi put it: qualia minus thinking). Whereas 'Mindfulness,' in my understanding, points to the same activity, it also brings with it a cloud of confusion and alternate meanings and a context of buddhism and theory and such. I do think by intentionally intending to ATA, my NPMs have increased. Maybe I'm fooling myself. Moreso than Enlightenment, I resonate with ZD's concept of being a man of action. 100% attention to whatever is happening. ATA just seems to be that in practice. And, as I understand the model, the pattern of thinking that distracts one from being a man of action loses it's grip with ATA. Cool, thanks for the response, I understand. Being a 'man of action' has increased for me recently, and I would say that has definitely been effective in alleviating suffering. More and more I just do what is in front of me. What specifically I'm doing doesn't matter so much. I don't have so much self invested in activity, so I'm not resenting that 'I don't get time to myself', or 'why do I have to do the dishes' (and a zillion other things) etc. Whole wodges of suffering have just dropped off. Whether or not that is actually conducive to waking up I have no idea. And I've pretty much stopped thinking in those terms - I go with intuition and 'the flow' mostly now. If I ever feel like I'm swimming against the current it's a good sign that I'm not 'in flow' and minding has started. Weirdly, even what one might call confrontational/interpersonally-difficult activities can be 'in flow', there don't seem to be any hard and fast rules. What are NPMs? Is it some new mad metric for how likely something is to help get enlightened? :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 14:24:58 GMT -5
I don't understand why people think that ATA is not a practise. It obviously is, there is nothing to debate here. ATA is basically paying attention to qualia and ignoring thoughts in the hope that one day a miracle will happen and enlightenment occurs. It really is as primitive as that. Obviously it is an activity that is extremely difficult to sustain. There are only two solutions. Either the desire is greater than the pain, or, as they hope, miraculously ATA grows into an automatism. I don't think it's really important whether it's called a practice or not. The thing that bugs me about the concept of practice is that it implies someone applying some methodology for improvement in some way. I don't really see it that way so I don't really think of ATA as a practice. To me ATA is akin to the concept of 'effortless meditation.' Really what happens in EM is that we apply a label of meditation to an experience that includes sitting. It's a time when we intentionally do not attend to thinking related activities on purpose -- like the to-do list, or counting breaths, or ruminating about some philosophical problem. The activity is such that one notices one has been distracted within the context of 'just sitting.' Naturally attention is redirected from thought to sensations. That's what happens throughout the day anyhoo. There's a recognition that one's attention has been on thoughts of some kind and then attention naturally comes right back to the present. ATA is just a label given to that shift. Also, by attending the actual, there is increased mass given to the intention to remember to make that shift. It's like you condition yourself to include little reminders in thinking. If you read Ikkyu, he uses crows as a signal. Having read his poetry, now whenever I hear a crow it brings me back to the sensations of the present. For example, if I'm thinking and I run across thoughts relating to attention or actual, I'm more likely to recognize that I've been thinking, then there is that natural shift. There are myriad other little embedded signals that help one recognize being lost in thought. ATA just helps bring out those signals.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 14:25:21 GMT -5
noticing per minute edit: from Joseph Goldstein. Increased npms happen with mindfulness practice.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 14:30:19 GMT -5
Noticing what? That you are doingly thinking rather than unthinkingly doing (which is how I see it)? Or something else?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 14:32:03 GMT -5
Noticing what? That you are doingly thinking rather than unthinkingly doing (which is how I see it)? Or something else? Noticing one has been thinking and not aware of what is actually happening (qualia minus thinking, or the five sensations).
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 14:34:30 GMT -5
Noticing what? That you are doingly thinking rather than unthinkingly doing (which is how I see it)? Or something else? Noticing one has been thinking and not aware of what is actually happening (qualia minus thinking, or the five sensations). OK, that is the same as 'unthinkingly doing' for me. I'd also say it's like becoming aware of 'what isn't', hehe. Cheers.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 16:26:04 GMT -5
I don't understand why people think that ATA is not a practise. It obviously is, there is nothing to debate here. ATA is basically paying attention to qualia and ignoring thoughts in the hope that one day a miracle will happen and enlightenment occurs. It really is as primitive as that. Obviously it is an activity that is extremely difficult to sustain. There are only two solutions. Either the desire is greater than the pain, or, as they hope, miraculously ATA grows into an automatism. I don't think it's really important whether it's called a practice or not. The thing that bugs me about the concept of practice is that it implies someone applying some methodology for improvement in some way. I don't really see it that way so I don't really think of ATA as a practice. I think it's important to be honest about the intentions. ATA is a practise and it's done with the intention of getting enlightened. Or, let's turn it around to find the negative proof of this. ATA is a very basic phenomenon, right? It happens to people all day long one way or another. So why don't they make a habit out of it, just for its own sake, without spiritual reasons? Because then it would require effort and from it come neither pleasure nor any other quantifiable results, so it's a waste of effort. So, nobody on his own ever gets the idea of systematically doing ATA for its own sake, it's only in the spiritual context that this idea ever arises. What I really dislike is this attitude of ZD when he recommends ATA as this open-ended activity with impossible requirements such as dropping all ideas, dropping self, total wilingness, etc. No mortal creature can ever fulfill such requirements and this then simply amounts to a refusal to accept criticism or to engage in honest discussion, because the blame is always on the seeker, and the accusation always is of character flaws or that one should do it longer and more intense. Top for example goes so far that even obvious failure, such as frustration, is interpreted as a sign of the success of the practise. It's a closed narraive, perfectly defended from all criticism.
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