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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 16:31:48 GMT -5
I don't think it's really important whether it's called a practice or not. The thing that bugs me about the concept of practice is that it implies someone applying some methodology for improvement in some way. I don't really see it that way so I don't really think of ATA as a practice. I think it's important to be honest about the intentions. ATA is a practise and it's done with the intention of getting enlightened. Or, let's turn it around to find the negative proof of this. ATA is a very basic phenomenon, right? It happens to people all day long one way or another. So why don't they make a habit out of it, just for its own sake, without spiritual reasons? Because then it would require effort and from it come neither pleasure nor any other quantifiable results, so it's a waste of effort. So, nobody on his own ever gets the idea of systematically doing ATA for its own sake, it's only in the spiritual context that this idea ever arises. What I really dislike is this attitude of ZD when he recommends ATA as this open-ended activity with impossible requirements such as dropping all ideas, dropping self, total wilingness, etc. No mortal creature can ever fulfill such requirements and this then simply amounts to a refusal to accept criticism or to engage in honest discussion, because the blame is always on the seeker, and the accusation always is of character flaws or that one should do it longer and more intense. Top for example goes so far that even obvious failure, such as frustration, is interpreted as a sign of the success of the practise. It's a closed narraive, perfectly defended from all criticism. Some things you can only understand by looking in the rear view mirror.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 16:50:04 GMT -5
I think it's important to be honest about the intentions. ATA is a practise and it's done with the intention of getting enlightened. Seems reasonable. Even ZD admits to doing it with this intention. Why else would one do it. Or, let's turn it around to find the negative proof of this. ATA is a very basic phenomenon, right? It happens to people all day long one way or another. So why don't they make a habit out of it, just for its own sake, without spiritual reasons? Because then it would require effort and from it come neither pleasure nor any other quantifiable results, so it's a waste of effort. So, nobody on his own ever gets the idea of systematically doing ATA for its own sake, it's only in the spiritual context that this idea ever arises. Again, seems reasonable. No normal person would see this as valuable and would think to themselves 'this seems like a colossal risk trading known pleasure for potentially... diddly-squat'. But remember ZD had had some cosmic consciousness experiences and he was very definitely aiming to get back to 'no mind'. This is one of the reasons I would say I have a problem with ATA. I have no 'navigation beacon' because I didn't have a cosmic consciousness/kensho type experience. Wasn't it Rumi that said '15 seconds of truth and I was a slave for life'? Lucky Rumi. :-) If ZD had a proper glimpse to go on, no wonder he could muster the 'willpower' to do ATA until the cows came home. Or, let's turn it around to find the negative proof of this. ATA is a very basic phenomenon, What I really dislike is this attitude of ZD when he recommends ATA as this open-ended activity with impossible requirements such as dropping all ideas, dropping self, total wilingness, etc. No mortal creature can ever fulfill such requirements and this then simply amounts to a refusal to accept criticism or to engage in honest discussion, because the blame is always on the seeker, and the accusation always is of character flaws or that one should do it longer and more intense. Top for example goes so far that even obvious failure, such as frustration, is interpreted as a sign of the success of the practise. It's a closed narraive, perfectly defended from all criticism. I agree it is very difficult to do ATA coming from a place of not having a kensho type experience. However, I do see it as being a logical approach. If one does not pay attention to self, then self will wither away. ZD's way was ZD's way. Perhaps your way will be to rage yourself into it. Anything is possible.
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Post by topology on Jul 2, 2013 16:59:57 GMT -5
I think it's important to be honest about the intentions. ATA is a practise and it's done with the intention of getting enlightened. Seems reasonable. Even ZD admits to doing it with this intention. Why else would one do it. Or, let's turn it around to find the negative proof of this. ATA is a very basic phenomenon, right? It happens to people all day long one way or another. So why don't they make a habit out of it, just for its own sake, without spiritual reasons? Because then it would require effort and from it come neither pleasure nor any other quantifiable results, so it's a waste of effort. So, nobody on his own ever gets the idea of systematically doing ATA for its own sake, it's only in the spiritual context that this idea ever arises. Again, seems reasonable. No normal person would see this as valuable and would think to themselves 'this seems like a colossal risk trading known pleasure for potentially... diddly-squat'. But remember ZD had had some cosmic consciousness experiences and he was very definitely aiming to get back to 'no mind'. This is one of the reasons I would say I have a problem with ATA. I have no 'navigation beacon' because I didn't have a cosmic consciousness/kensho type experience. Wasn't it Rumi that said '15 seconds of truth and I was a slave for life'? Lucky Rumi. :-) If ZD had a proper glimpse to go on, no wonder he could muster the 'willpower' to do ATA until the cows came home. Or, let's turn it around to find the negative proof of this. ATA is a very basic phenomenon, What I really dislike is this attitude of ZD when he recommends ATA as this open-ended activity with impossible requirements such as dropping all ideas, dropping self, total wilingness, etc. No mortal creature can ever fulfill such requirements and this then simply amounts to a refusal to accept criticism or to engage in honest discussion, because the blame is always on the seeker, and the accusation always is of character flaws or that one should do it longer and more intense. Top for example goes so far that even obvious failure, such as frustration, is interpreted as a sign of the success of the practise. It's a closed narraive, perfectly defended from all criticism. I agree it is very difficult to do ATA coming from a place of not having a kensho type experience. However, I do see it as being a logical approach. If one does not pay attention to self, then self will wither away. ZD's way was ZD's way. Perhaps your way will be to rage yourself into it. Anything is possible. Yes, I would say I was one whose existential frustrations were brought to a rolling boil and that put me into the state which set my bearings, a slave for life... haha. Appropriate. But it didn't kill the ego, just put it into perspective. I did, however, hit a territory that I described as "no-mind". The mind felt like an empty tunnel with a steady cool breeze.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 17:06:00 GMT -5
Yes, I would say I was one whose existential frustrations were brought to a rolling boil and that put me into the state which set my bearings, a slave for life... haha. Appropriate. But it didn't kill the ego, just put it into perspective. I did, however, hit a territory that I described as "no-mind". The mind felt like an empty tunnel with a steady cool breeze. I know the ordinary 'no mind' feeling (it's simply an absence of thought), and I get more doses of it as time goes on, but I don't liken it to cosmic consciousness. What you say about not killing the ego makes sense. I don't think killing the ego is really the point, it is likely rather either a waypoint (to) or a side-effect (of) truth realization. I'm doing ego work because it reduces mind clutter and increases silence. I.e. it's a waypoint, a stepping stone. It's actually a bit less intellectual than that, I am just following my nose. But that is kind of the gist of it.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 17:20:58 GMT -5
Some things you can only understand by looking in the rear view mirror. That's what people say when they're out of arguments.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 17:26:41 GMT -5
I agree it is very difficult to do ATA coming from a place of not having a kensho type experience. However, I do see it as being a logical approach. If one does not pay attention to self, then self will wither away. I agree with you that having had a spiritual experience is a huge factor. I think the teachers have to differentiate between people who come from a background with no experience whatsoever and people who did have an experience. These are totally different types of people who perceive life completely differently. In ATA we're not paying attention to self, instead we're paying attention to sounds, colours, feelings, etc. What self is is a complete mystery to us and is supposed to be answered one day within an experience allegedly resulting from having performed ATA. I'm not an angry person. As for ZD, he is very old and ATA is his one somewhat original contribution to the discourse, so naturally he will defend it. But the arguments he defends it with throw a bad light on him. If he wants to stick to ATA then at least he needs to clearly define the limits of it. As it is right now his model is completely untenable.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 17:27:42 GMT -5
Some things you can only understand by looking in the rear view mirror. That's what people say when they're out of arguments. That's what Q says when he reads what Top says but has had no personal experience and so can't relate to it.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 17:31:26 GMT -5
That's what people say when they're out of arguments. That's what Q says when he reads what Top says but has had no personal experience and so can't relate to it. Top didn't say anything except that he is right and I am wrong.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 17:40:47 GMT -5
In ATA we're not paying attention to self, instead we're paying attention to sounds, colours, feelings, etc. What self is is a complete mystery to us and is supposed to be answered one day within an experience allegedly resulting from having performed ATA. Enlightenment is surely a 'divine accident' and so the universe has to 'conspire' for it to happen. It can certainly happen without ATA. Maybe it won't happen even if you do ATA. I would say there are no guarantees. But to me it makes sense that no-self is a likely outcome of starving self of attention. However, I am having trouble doing it diligently, quite possibly for reasons stated. This, like so much else, I cannot control. I can only do what I can do. As for ZD, he is very old and ATA is his one somewhat original contribution to the discourse, so naturally he will defend it. But the arguments he defends it with throw a bad light on him. If he wants to stick to ATA then at least he needs to clearly define the limits of it. As it is right now his model is completely untenable. ATA at its core does not seem entirely original to me. It seems to fit in pretty well with a whole bunch of other pointers. Stopping mental activity (fantasy) and only seeing 'what is' is to me a common theme. Your comments on ZD 'needing' to 'clearly define the limits of it', and on his 'model' being untenable are f.ucking hillarious. You are welded into your own intellectual prison, IMO, and seem to be pretty unaware of it. Suck on it. PS I am also welded into my own intellectual prison, but at least I know I'm a f.ucking idiot.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 17:44:19 GMT -5
That's what Q says when he reads what Top says but has had no personal experience and so can't relate to it. Top didn't say anything except that he is right and I am wrong. I think you need a good zen b1tch slap from somebody. Except it will need to be a good hard one and delivered expertly, because you're such a f.ucking know-it-all bastard and you have built your ego so freaking thick that it will take a real 'bunker buster' to get through. I say that with genuine kindness. Which you will no doubt hate me for. PS I pray that someone can deliver me the same type of zen b1tch slap.
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Post by laughter on Jul 2, 2013 18:00:46 GMT -5
At core, in terms of the experience of the practice itself, and also conceptually, ATA seems the same to me as "watching the thinker" (Tolle) and "refuse all thoughts but 'I AM'" (Niz). In my experience each of these three prescriptions fits into a moment-to-moment practice and which one is the most effective varies by situation. I find ATA particularly effective while in apparent focused action. This doesn't have to be physical but in the physical situations I find it particularly useful in transitions from one phase of an activity to the next. For example, I've been plumbing the supply of a bathroom over this past week and I insist on using copper. While cutting or soldering the attention sticks naturally but the ATA pointer helps in the transition and in those gaps where I have to stop, measure, think, plan how the pipes are going to route/attach etc. The pointer does help while doing mind work also. "Watching the thinker" is a pointer that if it's followed and followed diligently and honestly can get the thinker to a place where there's not much to watch, and pretty quickly. These days if I notice daydreaming or wandering I'll fall back into the habit. This noticing of course happens during times when there's no focus in front of me ... when I run for example, or if I'm sitting on a chair lift or channel flipping. Of course, when I first started it a few years back now ... wow. What a circus! I'd actually start laughing at myself spontaneously sometimes. The most notable use of "refuse all thoughts but 'I AM'" is to get to sleep quickly and soundly! ... it is sort of like an express elevator to a complete and sublime inner silence. I am seeing these practices fall off in moment-to-moment frequency these days and that seems to be following a an up and down but overall damped cycle that is similar to what I experienced at the outset, and before that point last year where the integration to moment-to-moment was reached. When I wrote this they were pretty active but much less so these days. I still do notice a bit of a difference when I sit for 10-20 minutes once or twice a day and when I don't though, and this is an indicator of a sorts, although what I'm seeing is that I'm "going under" deeper and deeper over time and more quickly and consistently as well.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 18:09:59 GMT -5
what I'm seeing is that I'm "going under" deeper and deeper over time and more quickly and consistently as well. I can relate to that. But I have no idea 'where I am' really. Just a relative sense of having moved. I just keep on playing the role given to me and doing what's to be done. What else can I do? I have an amazing lack of suffering compared to previous times. Bits of suffering behavior just keep falling off.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 2, 2013 18:10:40 GMT -5
Your comments on ZD 'needing' to 'clearly define the limits of it', and on his 'model' being untenable are f.ucking hillarious. You are welded into your own intellectual prison, IMO, and seem to be pretty unaware of it. Suck on it. If his audience is bored housewifes and clueless teenagers then he can say whatever he wants and they'll still believe him. If he wants to impress a guy like me then he needs to put more work into his theory. I hear he his writing a book about ATA, so now would be a good time for it. You have no idea about where I'm at intellectually. Whatever I write here is old stuff to me unless I'm experimenting/bluffing. What I am pretty certain of is that yours a silly and completely misunderstood fantasy you've picked up from the anti-intellectual non-dualists. What I'm not certain of is whether you really do think I'm an idiot or you're just trying too hard.
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Post by james on Jul 2, 2013 18:18:29 GMT -5
If he wants to impress a guy like me then he needs to put more work into his theory. LOL You have no idea about where I'm at intellectually. Whatever I write here is old stuff to me unless I'm experimenting/bluffing. Intellectually I think you're probably a superman. Which probably translates to being 'special needs' in this game. But I'm probably talking bollocks, who knows - certainly not me. I would hazard that the universe will crack onto itself via you - you seem so intense I think something will have give eventually. That's my 2c. Just keep pushing on, dude. Intensity probably counts for a lot. What I am pretty certain of is that yours a silly and completely misunderstood fantasy you've picked up from the anti-intellectual non-dualists. What I'm not certain of is whether you really do think I'm an idiot or you're just trying too hard. You keep mentioning stuff ZD 'needs' to do. This really is just plain funny to me. PS it would be the same funny if you were talking about how the grocer 'needs' to supply you with better quality produce.
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Post by laughter on Jul 2, 2013 18:35:26 GMT -5
what I'm seeing is that I'm "going under" deeper and deeper over time and more quickly and consistently as well. I can relate to that. But I have no idea 'where I am' really. Just a relative sense of having moved. I just keep on playing the role given to me and doing what's to be done. What else can I do? I have an amazing lack of suffering compared to previous times. Bits of suffering behavior just keep falling off. Yes, I can relate to all of this. There is absolute certainty over here that this is "freedom from".
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