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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 11:58:50 GMT -5
That's what people say when they're out of arguments. That's what Q says when he reads what Top says but has had no personal experience and so can't relate to it. Here's an odd hypomythethetical to ponder. Suppose that your conditioning has reached such a configuration that you are primed to release the most constrictive attention on your self centered struggle. The struggle is recognized along with the role attention and thought plays, but mind often does something weird at this point. Even when mind knows something about the problem, instead of changing, it goes to war with it's own desires and can't seem to stop doing what it doesn't want to do because it also wants to do it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be doing it in the first place. There are various solutions to this dilemma, one of which is to create a structure of practice. In this scenario, it is not the practice that causes the turning away of attention, but rather the arising of the desire to turn away attention. The practice is merely a framework to remind mind that it wants to put an end to the split mind process. If the conditioning is not primed for it, the practice will not be appropriate or effective. Pointing to the results and assigning a cause may be erroneous. |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 3, 2013 13:21:53 GMT -5
You don't know what the game is. Unfortunately there is this sadistic fixation on "no pain no gain", but it doesn't have to be that way. I don't play games that frustrate me, I play games that are fun, relaxing and challenging. The plain fact is that most people are like me in this regard, they too wouldn't play a game where they only get frustrated all the time. I don't care about all this philosophizing about the merits of frustration, the simple fact is that I sign off when I get frustrated and so do most people. Whoever wants to help people needs to respect this simple fact. |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 3, 2013 13:25:25 GMT -5
That's sort of what Ruthless Truthers were doing. Advance from level to level. Keep a count/rank system. Those dudes at dharmaunderground have the level thing going on too, as I recall. It might work for some. The competitive edge part of it doesn't sit well with me -- there's something distracting about having a goal in the picture. With RT there was too much violence, pressure and humiliation, and above all it was just one giant mindfúck, no beginner actually knew what the hell he was supposed to do and I'm pretty sure that a large percentage merely faked their "liberation" because of the crazy dynamics there. With Dharmaunderground I don't know, I browsed it some but it was a mess, I couldn't even find proper definitions and rules. It doesn't have to be competetive (as in against other people). There is nothing distracting about having clearly defined goals. Or, what does destroy an activity for me is when the shadow of the unattainble ideal is constantly hanging over all my efforts, where I do excel (and most people) is when I have an easily attainable goal, and then the next, and the next, one after another. Consider how ordinary schools function. There is a lot of wisdom in how they are structured. |
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Post by james on Jul 3, 2013 14:09:57 GMT -5
The notion is based on the assumption that the self is like a conversation happening at the next table that one can simply turn attention away from. For ZD I'm guessing it was based on having had a kensho (or whatever) and then working out a way to get back there. I think it's common in the anecdotes for people to have the CC experience and then go chasing the '24x7' version. The self is a fundamental belief system. In fact it's the self that wants to make self wither away so's it can get something for itself. Yeah... but so what. A goodly number of the enlightened peeps did their utmost to 'get it' at one point. All part of their journey. Possibly a necessary one, for all I know. How long does the self have to ignore the self before the self finds that there is no self? I have no idea. Do you think you do? For ZD it was many years, IIRC (like, 10 years after CC experience - I could be wrong). This is why I talk about noticing what's really going on. If you knew the nature of this imaginary self, why would you have any interest in it? How much effort would be required to turn attention away from it? Noticing has proved 'useful' to me (useful in terms of illusion-popping, which reduces suffering), for sure, and so I hope it continues (I doubt that it wouldn't). As illusions get popped, the mental behaviors drop away. Natural. Can you please help me notice more stuff? This is why I'm here on this board. |
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Post by james on Jul 3, 2013 14:21:12 GMT -5
That's what Q says when he reads what Top says but has had no personal experience and so can't relate to it. Here's an odd hypomythethetical to ponder. Suppose that your conditioning has reached such a configuration that you are primed to release the most constrictive attention on your self centered struggle. The struggle is recognized along with the role attention and thought plays, but mind often does something weird at this point. Even when mind knows something about the problem, instead of changing, it goes to war with it's own desires and can't seem to stop doing what it doesn't want to do because it also wants to do it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be doing it in the first place. There are various solutions to this dilemma, one of which is to create a structure of practice. In this scenario, it is not the practice that causes the turning away of attention, but rather the arising of the desire to turn away attention. The practice is merely a framework to remind mind that it wants to put an end to the split mind process. If the conditioning is not primed for it, the practice will not be appropriate or effective. Pointing to the results and assigning a cause may be erroneous. In your example I would say the mind going to war with its own desires IS a kind of changing, and therefore part of the journey. If that's what is happening, then that's what is required at that moment to learn the necessary lesson - that's how it appears to me. When it comes to waking up, I very much agree that pointing to a cause would often be erroneous. But how could I discount it. I am not God, I do not know. If I claim to know then I am instantly ignorant. My intuition tells me an awakening event is some sort of conspiration of the universe, or to put it another way, it is likely somehow dependent on trillions of conditions, near and far, big and small. In any case, likely contributing factors can probably be identified. I've heard lots of who-I-would-regard-as-awakened peeps talk about the efforts they put in, even recommending some (I guess what the practice is depends on the condition of the aspirant). You yourself are advocating a practice. The practice of noticing. And why not? A useful practice I have found it. Although practice might be too-strong a word for it, it can't be helped. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 14:37:11 GMT -5
The notion is based on the assumption that the self is like a conversation happening at the next table that one can simply turn attention away from. For ZD I'm guessing it was based on having had a kensho (or whatever) and then working out a way to get back there. I think it's common in the anecdotes for people to have the CC experience and then go chasing the '24x7' version. The self is a fundamental belief system. In fact it's the self that wants to make self wither away so's it can get something for itself. Yeah... but so what. A goodly number of the enlightened peeps did their utmost to 'get it' at one point. All part of their journey. How long does the self have to ignore the self before the self finds that there is no self? I have no idea. Do you think you do? For ZD it was many years, IIRC (like, 10 years after CC experience - I could be wrong). This is why I talk about noticing what's really going on. If you knew the nature of this imaginary self, why would you have any interest in it? How much effort would be required to turn attention away from it? Noticing has proved 'useful' to me (useful in terms of illusion-popping, which reduces suffering), for sure, and so I hope it continues (I doubt that it wouldn't). As illusions get popped, the mental behaviors drop away. Natural. Can you please help me notice more stuff? This is why I'm here on this board. Well, I was trying to point out something about the idea of turning attention away from the self in order to wither it away, and I don't feel like that was heard. I'm not saying don't do ATA. If anything, I'm saying do it with conscious awareness of what you are doing. In that sense, Bambi has had some valid points. It IS a practice. There IS a goal. It IS hard to do and nobody wants to do it and the failure rate is likely very close to 100%. My interest isn't so much on practices as it is on clarity, and so I'm somewhat interested in being clear about the practice. What I was trying to talk about is whether or not the self referential thoughts permanently cease as a result of repeatedly not paying attention to them. Fundamentally, that's what ATA does, so it's important to understand if that's really true, or if something else is happening that may point in an even more useful direction. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 14:42:37 GMT -5
My intuition tells me an awakening event is some sort of conspiration of the universe, or to put it another way, it is likely somehow dependent on trillions of conditions, near and far, big and small. The whole universe DID conspire to bring you to this moment. It conspired to bring you the breath you just exhaled, and it is conspiring to bring you the next breath you breathe in. So breathing is a spiritual experience. It can be used as the inspiration to deepen our present moment awareness. In fact, the word inspiration come from the latin- inspirare, which was born of the latin- spirare: to breathe. There's a clue there. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 3, 2013 14:48:00 GMT -5
Here's an odd hypomythethetical to ponder. Suppose that your conditioning has reached such a configuration that you are primed to release the most constrictive attention on your self centered struggle. The struggle is recognized along with the role attention and thought plays, but mind often does something weird at this point. Even when mind knows something about the problem, instead of changing, it goes to war with it's own desires and can't seem to stop doing what it doesn't want to do because it also wants to do it. Otherwise, it wouldn't be doing it in the first place. There are various solutions to this dilemma, one of which is to create a structure of practice. In this scenario, it is not the practice that causes the turning away of attention, but rather the arising of the desire to turn away attention. The practice is merely a framework to remind mind that it wants to put an end to the split mind process. If the conditioning is not primed for it, the practice will not be appropriate or effective. Pointing to the results and assigning a cause may be erroneous. In your example I would say the mind going to war with its own desires IS a kind of changing, and therefore part of the journey. If that's what is happening, then that's what is required at that moment to learn the necessary lesson - that's how it appears to me. When it comes to waking up, I very much agree that pointing to a cause would often be erroneous. But how could I discount it. I am not God, I do not know. If I claim to know then I am instantly ignorant. My intuition tells me an awakening event is some sort of conspiration of the universe, or to put it another way, it is likely somehow dependent on trillions of conditions, near and far, big and small. In any case, likely contributing factors can probably be identified. I've heard lots of who-I-would-regard-as-awakened peeps talk about the efforts they put in, even recommending some (I guess what the practice is depends on the condition of the aspirant). You yourself are advocating a practice. The practice of noticing. And why not? A useful practice I have found it. Although practice might be too-strong a word for it, it can't be helped. I'm not saying don't practice. I have never said don't practice. All I've ever done is try to bring conscious awareness to what's actually being done. Practices are almost never what they seem to be. It isn't about learning new doggie tricks. It's always about clarity, so be clear about what's being practiced. In the post you responded to, I was suggesting something about what is actually happening in the practice aside from what appears to be happening. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 3, 2013 14:56:24 GMT -5
In your example I would say the mind going to war with its own desires IS a kind of changing, and therefore part of the journey. If that's what is happening, then that's what is required at that moment to learn the necessary lesson - that's how it appears to me. When it comes to waking up, I very much agree that pointing to a cause would often be erroneous. But how could I discount it. I am not God, I do not know. If I claim to know then I am instantly ignorant. My intuition tells me an awakening event is some sort of conspiration of the universe, or to put it another way, it is likely somehow dependent on trillions of conditions, near and far, big and small. In any case, likely contributing factors can probably be identified. I've heard lots of who-I-would-regard-as-awakened peeps talk about the efforts they put in, even recommending some (I guess what the practice is depends on the condition of the aspirant). You yourself are advocating a practice. The practice of noticing. And why not? A useful practice I have found it. Although practice might be too-strong a word for it, it can't be helped. I'm not saying don't practice. I have never said don't practice. All I've ever done is try to bring conscious awareness to what's actually being done. Practices are almost never what they seem to be. It isn't about learning new doggie tricks. It's always about clarity, so be clear about what's being practiced. In the post you responded to, I was suggesting something about what is actually happening in the practice aside from what appears to be happening. Yes, keep the treats out of the game 'cause dogs got great noses. No treat, no dog. edit -- wait, come to think of it, that should be said: where there's treats there's dogs .... I can imagine how the other way around or the certainty of attracting a dog with a treat aren't necessarily always the case. The practice is merely a framework to remind yes |
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Post by james on Jul 3, 2013 15:02:34 GMT -5
Well, I was trying to point out something about the idea of turning attention away from the self in order to wither it away, and I don't feel like that was heard. Glad you're trying again then. I'm not saying don't do ATA. If anything, I'm saying do it with conscious awareness of what you are doing. To my mind my 'conscious awareness of what I am doing' is based on a shady kind of 'logic' slash intuition that starving the self of attention by turning away from it might well be a good idea. In that sense, Bambi has had some valid points. It IS a practice. There IS a goal. It IS hard to do and nobody wants to do it and the failure rate is likely very close to 100%. My interest isn't so much on practices as it is on clarity, and so I'm somewhat interested in being clear about the practice. Of course, it is a practice. Of course, there is a goal. I can attest to the fact it is very hard to do 'more than you can do'. That's like anything though. What I was trying to talk about is whether or not the self referential thoughts permanently cease as a result of repeatedly not paying attention to them. Fundamentally, that's what ATA does, so it's important to understand if that's really true, or if something else is happening that may point in an even more useful direction. I don't know whether self referential thoughts permanently cease as a result of this practice or not. For all I know ZD does have self-referential thoughts even now (I'd imagine that he does, but they're just not associated with an entity called 'me'). I never heard him claiming he doesn't, anyway. To end them was probably his goal though (from what I know) since he was (IIRC) chasing the 24x7 version of kensho. Still, sometimes maybe it is useful to charge at windmills. So what else is happening that may point in a more useful direction? You may have said it already but I didn't hear it. In which case I'd be grateful for a rephrase. |
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Post by james on Jul 3, 2013 15:04:55 GMT -5
My intuition tells me an awakening event is some sort of conspiration of the universe, or to put it another way, it is likely somehow dependent on trillions of conditions, near and far, big and small. The whole universe DID conspire to bring you to this moment. It conspired to bring you the breath you just exhaled, and it is conspiring to bring you the next breath you breathe in. So breathing is a spiritual experience. It can be used as the inspiration to deepen our present moment awareness. In fact, the word inspiration come from the latin- inspirare, which was born of the latin- spirare: to breathe. There's a clue there. Yes, I know it did. I call it intuition because I wouldn't call it 'normal' knowledge. "I've realized that" might be appropriate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 15:10:02 GMT -5
The whole universe DID conspire to bring you to this moment. It conspired to bring you the breath you just exhaled, and it is conspiring to bring you the next breath you breathe in. So breathing is a spiritual experience. It can be used as the inspiration to deepen our present moment awareness. In fact, the word inspiration come from the latin- inspirare, which was born of the latin- spirare: to breathe. There's a clue there. Yes, I know it did. I call it intuition because I wouldn't call it 'normal' knowledge. "I've realized that" might be appropriate. I've been using mindful breathing for the better part of the day today. Had a few chores to do in and around the house. With a gentle focus on the breathing, the mind began to slow down. I finished with the chores in a jiffy. |
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Post by james on Jul 3, 2013 15:19:40 GMT -5
I'm not saying don't practice. I have never said don't practice. All I've ever done is try to bring conscious awareness to what's actually being done. Practices are almost never what they seem to be. It isn't about learning new doggie tricks. It's always about clarity, so be clear about what's being practiced. In the post you responded to, I was suggesting something about what is actually happening in the practice aside from what appears to be happening. I'm not even sure what you mean by new doggie tricks? The reason I would do ATA (if I had to come up with one) is to get into the habit of having fewer self-referential thoughts. Of becoming conditioned to being 'used to' and 'comfortable' with not thinking about a me. If I'm reading you right, practice can be a 'reminder of the will to change' as well. Sure, I can see that. I wonder whether it is necessary to be conscious of that in order for it to be useful though. It sounds like something you might realize in retrospect. Wouldn't you say it could work the same way in either case (conscious slash non-conscious)? IThe practice is merely a framework to remind mind that it wants to put an end to the split mind process. If the conditioning is not primed for it, the practice will not be appropriate or effective. Pointing to the results and assigning a cause may be erroneous. I'm pretty sure I do get what you're saying, because it's not exactly esoteric. If you do something before it's the right time/place for you, then you might well think it's a bunch of hooey. Are you trying to point at something to do with me specifically, because if you are - that bit I still don't get. |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 3, 2013 16:05:28 GMT -5
The whole universe DID conspire to bring you to this moment. It conspired to bring you the breath you just exhaled, and it is conspiring to bring you the next breath you breathe in. bs |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 16:08:53 GMT -5
The whole universe DID conspire to bring you to this moment. It conspired to bring you the breath you just exhaled, and it is conspiring to bring you the next breath you breathe in. bs Well, yes.  |
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