Nightmare scenario

[frankshank]

There's a certain calm knowingness that those who have seen through the illusion of the ego seem to exude. What I'm interested in is how you'd react in a situation that most 'unenlightened' people would find difficult on an emotional level. Let me put a scenario to you and I'd like to know how you think you would feel and why:

You've been to work and you're as happy as larry driving home. Perhaps you're taking in nature or chuckling away about something. You drive into your driveway and get out of the car. Won't it be great to see the good wife again and my daughter too. You notice the front door is slightly ajar, which is strange as your wife has a habit of keeping the doors locked at all times. As you walk through the door you notice a blood stain on the floor. It seems to lead to the living room so you follow the trail. In the living room you find your wife and daughter battered to death and seemingly raped in the process. How do you feel? Is there anger? Is there a sense of loss? Do you feel hatred for the perpetrators even though you know that everything just happens? How do you feel?

[robert]

well, that's when you find out whether you have actually seen through the illusion of ego. and do you feel any anger or emotion, only if you are a human being. seeing though ego and existing without an ego, in my opinion, are two different things. i would imagine that emotion must exist in that type of situation with the difference being that one attached to ego will waste the next ten years of their life trying to make sure that someone pays for the crime with their life stuck to the belief that their hurt will be lessened when another dies. while a less attached person will at that point see through their suffering and move on with their life how ever they can.

[zendancer]

Frank/Andy: I confess that I find this kind of question somewhat irritating because I hear it so often. If I tell people that the world is perfect just as it is, the first question I get asked is something like, "If you were being tortured right now, would you still say its perfect?" I then respond, "I'm not being tortured right now." They then say, "And IF you were?" My response to this sort of thing varies depending upon my mood. I might scream, or simulate hitting them with a Zen stick, or explain how this kind of imaginative thinking keeps them separated from the truth that is always here and now.

I'm sure that I would feel overwhelming sadness if anyone I cared about got injured or killed, but I doubt that I would feel any hatred. I see people who inflict injury upon others as ignorant rather than evil. They may have to be locked up to prevent them from continuing to hurt others, but I oppose capital punishment for any reason. Even a murderer can wake up. As Christ said of his own tormentors, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

At any moment life can present us with an extreme situation involving life or death. We may go to the local store and walk in on a robbery in progress. We may pull out of our driveway and get involved in a huge car crash. A person eating dinner with us may suddenly choke on some food. In those kinds of situations we do whatever we have to do. Afterwards, we do whatever we have to do next. It is pretty simple. I live in the present, and I never waste any time worrying about what might happen in the future. As a person of action, I am content to deal with things as they occur.

[frankshank]

I certainly wasn't trying to irritate anyone. I do find some of the posts on here quite idealistic (but a great read) so I was interested as to how people would react in a difficult situation. If I'm being totally honest, you feeling irritated by the question is kind of disappointing. Not because I've taken offence but because to me these sorts of questions are a test. Irritation suggests defensiveness to me. If you really are as certain about everything as your posts suggest nothing should irritate you. I'm allowed though. LOL.

[cabinintheforest]

Frankshank what you posted is not a nice scenario.. why would you even want to think about that. Negative thinking is not good. I shall tell you what is good, positive thinking is.

You should read a book called the power of positive thinking by norman vincent peale. You need to get away from negative thinking and get thinking good and positive.

[frankshank]

I don't think I'm being negative. It's only negative if you perceive it that way and that's not my issue!

[Myself]

Frankshank: expecting Zendancer or others not get upset and sad in the situation you described is the same as expecting a deciduous tree not lose its leaves in the fall (northern hemisphere).

[enigma]

I would like to add to what Zen had to say, and maybe counter a myth or two, without risking placing myself in the 'enlightened people' category. Hehe.

If we assume that what you really are is that person, and that person has come to some realization that there is no problem no matter what, then your question, and the implied 'correct answer', makes perfect sense, but you are not the person and the person did not somehow become enlightened, which is the whole point.

As an example, the newborn laughs and cries and gets angry and yet there is no no at all in the newborn. It has yet to form such a concept, and so it is not ego that makes one angry or anything else. What we call the person is an individuated expression of the totality of creation, and the problematic ego is an identity overlaid on top of that expression. No thought or feeling or action is independent from this totality, so as it is all fully integrated we could even say there is just one thing happening here and all beings are involved and none are doing it. The experiences happening 'here' are not separate from the experiences happening 'there'. If I know beyond a doubt that gravity is an illusion, I still can't fly because I am not the one flying.

What I'm suggesting is that the person does not become something different, and certainly not an unfeeling, uncaring automaton. What is closer to the truth is that something is removed from the conditioning, namely the egoic overlay that says 'I am this person'. This is what results in suffering, not the thoughts, feelings or actions of the person. Essentially, what you are is reclaimed such that you move away from the mind/body and allow the mind/body to do what it does as a part of the unfolding of creation itself, which is what it did when it was born. This turns out to be precisely what's needed.

As a small example, a couple years ago, there was a problem with an old girlfriend visiting the house unannounced, and repeatedly. I wasn't particularly concerned but it wasn't to the liking of my current ladyfriend. (Oops!) The ex came by one day while the current live-in was in the shower, and I found myself screaming at her at the top of my voice. It was particularly odd because 'I' wasn't screaming but merely watching with a bit of amazement. There was NO anger detected at all, and no intention to pretend there was. However, she never returned. This was clearly what was called for in that situation, and since 'I' wasn't capable of working up any anger over the heartfelt sense of loss from an old friend, what was needed came about without my cooperation, which simply is not needed.

Over and over, such perfection is glimpsed but there is nothing and no-one here that is willing to lay claim to this perfection, nor to take responsibility for it should it seem to be something less than perfection to others.

Don't know if that's useful or not.

[zendancer]

Enigma: That's an excellent explanation. Fortunately, because there is no one who can become enlightened, it's lucky for me that I don't have to pretend to act in a way that is "special." That could be a lot of work! LOL. It's also lucky that I can exhibit irritation, anger, sadness, happiness, etc. without feeling defensive. These responses simply arise in the context of life. They do not arise for someone. An imagined someone is the fiction. The irritation probably arises because the usual jump to hyperbole or extreme imaginary situations is so unnecessary. A small jump every now and then would be a welcome change. LOL.

[enigma]

Zen, I wonder if you've had the experience of anger showing up, and watching with amusement at the same time. I don't really know what is so amusing, maybe the absurdity of the situation. I half expect laughter to happen at the same time, but I guess that would cancel out the anger and end the amusement. Hehe. Just kinda odd.

[Owned]

In the living room you find your wife and daughter battered to death and seemingly raped in the process.

This is the sort of thing you think about is it? You then say 'it is not negetive'? What?

So you are saying a wife and daughter being raped and killed is positive? :angry:

Let's hope the police are watching this board and arrest you.

[Thepolice]

Hello this is the police

[lol]

im joking but in all seriious dont post stuff like that it is not nice and cabin the book u reccomended is a good book.

[hellohello]

im not joining this forum i found it on a askjeeves seach lol who are u people and why are u disccusing this stuff

[goodbye]

God bless you all. Good bye.

back to my school work now