Nightmare scenario

[frankshank]

May 26, 2010 6:52:27 GMT -5 @Jimmy said:

Hey Frankshank stop making fake accounts.

I fear you may be suffering from cabin fever Jimmy. My advice is to get some fresh air!

[WimDeVos]

Though I won't quote stuff already written here above, though I agreed at times, and didn't for other parts, let's just say I really liked (parts of) the posts by Frankshank, Zendancer, Robert, Karen... and the discussion as a whole. An addition I would like to make :

About 5 years ago, I was totally living in the Now, kinda "Zen" (let's just call it that, I had been practising with chakra, medidation, reading books, etc). So I felt what I felt without an "uncontrolled" response to it, I managed my thoughts & emotions. I lived a life of instant forgiveness & letting go, while not neglecting my borders or getting my values harmed. Let's say I did pretty well on the waking up part, and managed to do that for almost two years.

Then, let's say 3 years ago, quite a few heavy emotional circumstances occurred in my life, one after the other. Destroying bit by bit my physical & mental strenghts, bringing an end to the controlled conscious way of "being". The body & unconsciousness took over, literally, without having a say in it. A regression (= going back to a previous phase of life namely early childhood in my case) took place. Now & Here were Never & Nowhere to be found anymore.

All this to say : You can't be sure of anything...that's my lesson.

The more I get to learn about "spirituality" (let's just call it that again too, in lack of better terms), whether dual/non-dual, whether it is guidance towards a goal of becoming more actualised, or whether it is a path of unlearning and listening to/looking at the truth within... the more I notice that there is no one teaching, no one way, and certainly no magic potion that frees you for life. No matter how strenghtened one might feel at a certain time in life.

I do believe our unconsciousness is filled with "wrong" beliefs & convictions of others (teachers in our past days)... I do believe as an adult you owe it to yourself to go a path of self-actualisation, to live your life to the fullest (within the limits of socialisation)... I do believe we are distanciated of our tue nature of a human being, and that looking within is the proper exercise to be performed... But I also believe that we are emotional beings, capable of perceiving & expressing, thinking & (re)acting... I believe one grows in emotional intelligence (according the consciousness level of this personality-build on that date) throughout the experiences he encounters in life. I think a nice experiment would be to see how kids would grow out to be, when no "teachers" (none, zero) were involved in life, when they didn't get to eat the Apple... (eg Summerhill school) but that's another discussion...

So whether you see it as a path and call it "becoming a better being", or whether we have to get off the path to "retrieve the truth that you're nor good nor bad"... I believe you can "strenghten" yourself, but one can never predict, never take a skill for granted. So in this case, you can never say how you would react, even when you feel freed from ego. There are too many other things that play a role in this body/mind...That's the only true "now" there is according to me. At least to this date, maybe I'm just not (t)here yet...or maybe beyond.

[Linny]

Frank what is your job in real life? And why do you contemplate nighmares? Just some questions i would like to know. Are you married?

[GUEST]

Hi Alpha

To those questions i would answer no. God did not create us with the potential for evil or duality or to suffer it all came about as error and those things are not real. Those things are all illusion, unreal. The good thing is they can be destroyed as Good is the reality. The reality is spiritual it is all around us we are inside it, it is inside us, it is everywhere infinite. it says in the bible 'the kingdom of God is within you' this is the reality a perfect state of consciouness, there is no sin for love (God) is omnipresent. Sin, disease, evil, suffering and death are only found in the material world which is an illusion.

Good and God are synonymous terms. God and love are synonymous terms.

The Christ is the spiritual selfhood of Jesus it is the spiritual idea of the divine principle, love, the true idea of God.

Both Paul and John in the bible pointed out we are in Christ.

Each of us is an individualisation of the Christ consciouness, an individualation of the Christ. All the spiritual beings together are the Christ. There is no sin in the Christ this has been proven and is explained in the bible where it says 'In him there is no sin' I John 3 Ver 5.

We are not sinful or material. God created man in his own image and God saw everything that he made and behold it was very good Gen 1 Ver 27 31. We are all perfect beings in a perfect spiritual world in heaven the kingdom of harmony. One with the infinite mind. We are governed by a good perfect God.

We are ideas in the mind of God.

Amen to that.

[enigma]

May 26, 2010 5:20:35 GMT -5 frankshank said:

Enigma: Fascinating read. That's the sort of response I was looking for. Thanks for the openness.

You're mucho welcome, Frank. I see it as an account of what is'real' whereas the account of Enigma's seeking or finding never happened at all.

[frankshank]

May 26, 2010 10:48:26 GMT -5 @Linny said:

Frank what is your job in real life? And why do you contemplate nighmares? Just some questions i would like to know. Are you married?

Job: I'm a senior tester. I test couches, TVs, games machines & HIFI equipment. It often involves days of hardly moving, which can be very tiring.

Nightmares: One persons nightmare is another persons dream. Try to open your mind up. It's OK to sit on the fence. You don't have to be certain about everything. There is no right or wrong even if it seems that way at times.

Marriage: I'm not married no. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that most females seem to expect their other half to fill gaps for them when they should be taking care of it themselves. As I have so much in common with myself I find myself laughing at my own jokes all the time. I really am great company. I'm thinking about entering another battle sometime soon but I'll be buying a sturdy cage if I do.

[enigma]

May 26, 2010 7:51:46 GMT -5 @WimDeVos said:

About 5 years ago, I was totally living in the Now, kinda "Zen" (let's just call it that, I had been practising with chakra, medidation, reading books, etc). So I felt what I felt without an "uncontrolled" response to it, I managed my thoughts & emotions. I lived a life of instant forgiveness & letting go, while not neglecting my borders or getting my values harmed. Let's say I did pretty well on the waking up part, and managed to do that for almost two years.

Then, let's say 3 years ago, quite a few heavy emotional circumstances occurred in my life, one after the other. Destroying bit by bit my physical & mental strenghts, bringing an end to the controlled conscious way of "being". The body & unconsciousness took over, literally, without having a say in it. A regression (= going back to a previous phase of life namely early childhood in my case) took place. Now & Here were Never & Nowhere to be found anymore.

All this to say : You can't be sure of anything...that's my lesson.

The more I get to learn about "spirituality" (let's just call it that again too, in lack of better terms), whether dual/non-dual, whether it is guidance towards a goal of becoming more actualised, or whether it is a path of unlearning and listening to/looking at the truth within... the more I notice that there is no one teaching, no one way, and certainly no magic potion that frees you for life. No matter how strenghtened one might feel at a certain time in life.

The underlying assumption is that there is something to be controlled, managed, strengthened, that something can be 'more actualized' or learn equanimity. Since none of this is actually true, all such experiences will have a beginning, and will have an ending. That's the lesson I would take away from it.

If you were operating under the delusion that you were a tree, you might experience the joy of growing new leaves and fruit, and you might experience the horror of broken limbs and the woodsman's axe, and while it is not irrelevant, it is still illusion based upon delusion, and it will have a beginning and an ending, returning you precisely to where you began because you haven't moved at all; only the tree has 'moved'.

That which knows of beginnings and endings cannot, itself, begin or end, and has no need of becoming. It is, however, delighted at the sensation of the wind blowing through it's leaves and the drama of being felled by the woodsman's axe. Only from within the innocence of not knowing can it be known that this has always been known.

[enigma]

May 26, 2010 11:39:17 GMT -5 frankshank said:

May 26, 2010 10:48:26 GMT -5 @Linny said:

Frank what is your job in real life? And why do you contemplate nighmares? Just some questions i would like to know. Are you married?

Job: I'm a senior tester. I test couches, TVs, games machines & HIFI equipment. It often involves days of hardly moving, which can be very tiring.

Is there at least popcorn and bathroom breaks? What about vacation benefits??

[GUEST]

Job: I'm a senior tester. I test couches, TVs, games machines & HIFI equipment. It often involves days of hardly moving, which can be very tiring.

How did you get this job? So you get payed alot of money?

[frankshank]

May 26, 2010 12:28:00 GMT -5 @GUEST said:

Job: I'm a senior tester. I test couches, TVs, games machines & HIFI equipment. It often involves days of hardly moving, which can be very tiring.

How did you get this job? So you get payed alot of money?

I'm just poking fun at myself really. I don't work. Various issues (in my dream?) have resulted in a four and a half year lull - ouch. I've been looking in my crystal ball though and I see change occurring sometime soon.

[WDV]

Hi Enigma, i really like your postings, and learn a lot from them. Indeed you are absolute right in your reply... I do follow on that one (I actually didn't describe very well what I wanted to express in my posting neither - I'm not English native).

I can only dream of reaching that point that you describe and apparently have reached yourself... Referring to the described emotional circumstance & question in the inital posting by Frankshank... I know that every other reaction than the one you describe, would just be a neurotic, emotional behaviour, egodriven whatever we want to call it, that can't last forever anyhow... One would have to come to his senses sooner or later and deal with the actuality of "Now" again anyway... But what if 5 of this type of circumstances would happen in one year in your life ? And, please do not think that I'm negative minded, and I do understand that this is purely hypothetical...at least, in my life it kinda wasn't.

So I really ask this as a valid question, to have an understanding of what this "Awakeness-point" would need to feel like... cause right now it appears almost unhuman to me (in theory not, in practice yes)... Though I do understand it, the teachings, I cannot grasp it fully... After my own experiences (both the LivingNow & Regressed State) I just can't imagine that my hard-wired body, semihard-wired mind, genes, emotions, subconscious conditionning can be dealing with any given circumstance any given time... Maybe I'm still too young/unexperienced... need to travel some more... But as I feel it, and experienced it, with my current set of skills, one can only bear so much.... as much as his current level of emotional intelligence can sustain (heavily defined by the conditionning to my belief). And that's where this "control" comes in play in the way I meant it... Difficult to explain, but if there is nothing to be controlled really, than how can there be an emotion ? And don't get me wrong, I don't mean "control" as in "resist" or "hide", just as in "dealt with" with the current set of skills, the EQ you got...

My real opinion ? I believe the danger is that quite some people THINK they've reached a certain state, until... life shows them otherwise...

Let's put it this way : is it possible to unlearn & rewire 20y (=youth) of subconscious conditionning, defining your EQ & emo-behavioural reactions, in a fairly amount of time (let's say a couple of years of spiritual searching) to a point where one is able to remain unhurt (cause as in an Awareness-state, nothing really makes you suffer, only you-self) in any given set of conditions such as the one described in the initial discussion ? Being unattached to any event, any one, life itself, own false-belief ? Or is one just "strengthened" enough to remain on top of his unconsciousness. (I know you're going to say that nothing needs to be strengthened really)

Or do most of us just think to have reached the "livingnow-state", hoping that no circumstance has the power to draw us away from it, ending our lives in a search really.

My personal belief ? When I'd get 50 (and even more "experienced" in life) and would have to deal with the circumstances described, or with my own experiences again... I suppose my reaction would be different yes, but the heartache would be the same. Pain <-> Suffering. Only, I SUPPOSE, I dare not tell anymore for sure... cause even then I think a bad enough set of circumstances could make me balance, being the limited Being I am. I think no skillset is to be taken for granted when it comes to body/mind/emotions.

Thanks for your clarification.

[frankshank]

May 26, 2010 12:22:30 GMT -5 enigma said:

May 26, 2010 11:39:17 GMT -5 frankshank said:

Job: I'm a senior tester. I test couches, TVs, games machines & HIFI equipment. It often involves days of hardly moving, which can be very tiring.

Is there at least popcorn and bathroom breaks? What about vacation benefits??

Popcorn on tap and free use of my own toilet whenever the need arises. I love the job that much it really has been like one long vacation!

[Guest2]

Frankshank is everything you post a joke? Are you a comedian

[enigma]

Thanks for your interest in discussing this stuff. Seems like it can potentially be very useful.
I want to make it clear that I have not reached some point, which is part of the point being discussed here. I'm not trying to be humble or spiritually correct or play with semantics. Of course we know conceptually that there is no person to have reached some point, but I mean that there is no sense that there was ever a person having tried to reach either, and that the 'reacher' never needed to be found. It must be the 'real' you that is trying to reach yourself, right? And the reaching' is just you admiring your new leaves and such, which is fine.

May 26, 2010 14:02:08 GMT -5 @WDV said:

Hi Enigma, i really like your postings, and learn a lot from them. Indeed you are absolute right in your reply... I do follow on that one (I actually didn't describe very well what I wanted to express in my posting neither - I'm not English native).

I can only dream of reaching that point that you describe and apparently have reached yourself... Referring to the described emotional circumstance & question in the inital posting by Frankshank... I know that every other reaction than the one you describe, would just be a neurotic, emotional behaviour, egodriven whatever we want to call it, that can't last forever anyhow... One would have to come to his senses sooner or later and deal with the actuality of "Now" again anyway... But what if 5 of this type of circumstances would happen in one year in your life ? And, please do not think that I'm negative minded, and I do understand that this is purely hypothetical...at least, in my life it kinda wasn't.

Maybe it was Zen who mentioned that hypotheticals aren't happeneing, and I mentioned that I'm not good at the imagining thingy. There's a saying "God doesn't give you what you can't handle." The reason for this is not that there is a God somewhere deciding this but because your focus of attention is Awareness itself. To suggest something can happen that 'you' can't handle places the events outside of you and in a position to impose themselves upon you to a point that is beyond your ability to attend, and yet you are this attention itself.

I don't know if that makes sense so let me try to give an example with which you might be familiar. Have you ever struggled and suffered to such a degree that surrender was your only option, and in that surrender there simnply was no problem. Or perhaps just a little mopping up to do and nothing more? The suffering arises in mind and the attention on mind maintains it, and so how would it be possible for the attention to exceed it's capacity to attend?

I used to have lucid dreams that, regardless of their lucid nature, would sometimes turn into nightmares. This actually means that I know I'm creating a dream that is about to unfold beyond my willingness to continue to participate in my own creation, which is, itself, interesting, which is why it happens, but anyhoo, what I would do, both as the dream character and the 'real' physical person, is pinch my arm, which would cause me to wake up. In waking life, surrender is the 'pinch'. You are never a victim of your own creative attention, though it can seem so.

So I really ask this as a valid question, to have an understanding of what this "Awakeness-point" would need to feel like... cause right now it appears almost unhuman to me (in theory not, in practice yes)... Though I do understand it, the teachings, I cannot grasp it fully... After my own experiences (both the LivingNow & Regressed State) I just can't imagine that my hard-wired body, semihard-wired mind, genes, emotions, subconscious conditionning can be dealing with any given circumstance any given time...

You can see theoretically that you are the one 'giving' those circumstances, right? Perhaps we could say the greater the willingness to wake up, the stronger the pinch you give yourself. You're familiar with the relationship between suffering and awakening. It can appear that suffering results in awakening, but really, the longing to awaken results in a lot of self pinching. Hehe. 'You' have 'the fire'...... so burn. Burning is easier than stomping out fires.

Maybe I'm still too young/unexperienced... need to travel some more... But as I feel it, and experienced it, with my current set of skills, one can only bear so much.... as much as his current level of emotional intelligence can sustain (heavily defined by the conditionning to my belief). And that's where this "control" comes in play in the way I meant it... Difficult to explain, but if there is nothing to be controlled really, than how can there be an emotion ?

There are lots of things that need to be controlled. If your car going down the freeway were not being controlled, it would no doubt be a good time to pinch your arm and wake up from the nightmare. Hehe. However, the person is not doing the controlling. What is 'needed' is what is happening. Sometimes what is needed for awakening to happen can be quite dramatic. Sometimes there's not much interest in going that route.

My real opinion ? I believe the danger is that quite some people THINK they've reached a certain state, until... life shows them otherwise...

Agreed. The 'spiritual path' is made up entirely of ego traps. Or since ego actually looks for these traps to jump into, maybe we could say 'ego receptors'?

Let's put it this way : is it possible to unlearn & rewire 20y (=youth) of subconscious conditionning, defining your EQ & emo-behavioural reactions, in a fairly amount of time (let's say a couple of years of spiritual searching) to a point where one is able to remain unhurt (cause as in an Awareness-state, nothing really makes you suffer, only you-self) in any given set of conditions such as the one described in the initial discussion ? Being unattached to any event, any one, life itself, own false-belief ? Or is one just "strengthened" enough to remain on top of his unconsciousness. (I know you're going to say that nothing needs to be strengthened really)

Unattachment and equanimity are pointers, but don't really apply to the individuated expression. They point to your true nature prior to the expression. Remember that the expression is not what you are, and is really the most minuscule aspect of an incomprehensibly massive, integrated movement of creation. In this understanding, you don't need to find the implied dividing line between a desire and an attachment (Is wanting to see a sunset a desire or an attachment?) or between equanimity and emotion (does feeling a deep love disturb one's equanimity?). The individual is a wondrous, beautiful expression of imagination, creativity, joy and sorrow, love and fear. Let it be what it is. None of it can harm You.

[WDV]

Thx Enigma, you really bring me the next insights...