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Post by inavalan on Jan 15, 2024 22:14:53 GMT -5
Yes, and often more than that. Many people encounter the Divine and afterwards still think that they are separate volitional entities that at one time encountered the Divine. This is probably the most basic pitfall on the pathless path. What's pointed to beyond encountering the Divine AND realizing that what one is is not separate from the Divine, is probably what Zen people call a state of "no mind" in which reflective thought becomes so inconsequential that intentionality, in any conventional sense, is no longer in play. There is joy in helping other people find and feel joy, happiness, freedom, peace, equanimity, etc, but without reflective thoughts ABOUT any such activity. One lives as a manifested aspect of the Divine in what the words "Nirvana/the Kingdom of God" point to but without reflecting about such a state or way of life. This is why ZM's often say that even enlightenment and Nirvana must be left behind. I just finished watching my 4 year old grandson for several hours. He moves from one moment to the next without ever looking back. Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of heaven one needs to become as a little child. Seems Jesus was saying what you are saying here. Jesus said that, but it's up to each one to interpret what that actually means. For someone, that might mean to wear a diaper.  |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 15, 2024 22:47:12 GMT -5
Yes, and often more than that. Many people encounter the Divine and afterwards still think that they are separate volitional entities that at one time encountered the Divine. This is probably the most basic pitfall on the pathless path. What's pointed to beyond encountering the Divine AND realizing that what one is is not separate from the Divine, is probably what Zen people call a state of "no mind" in which reflective thought becomes so inconsequential that intentionality, in any conventional sense, is no longer in play. There is joy in helping other people find and feel joy, happiness, freedom, peace, equanimity, etc, but without reflective thoughts ABOUT any such activity. One lives as a manifested aspect of the Divine in what the words "Nirvana/the Kingdom of God" point to but without reflecting about such a state or way of life. This is why ZM's often say that even enlightenment and Nirvana must be left behind. I just finished watching my 4 year old grandson for several hours. He moves from one moment to the next without ever looking back. Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of heaven one needs to become as a little child. Seems Jesus was saying what you are saying here. Yes indeed. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2024 22:53:08 GMT -5
I just finished watching my 4 year old grandson for several hours. He moves from one moment to the next without ever looking back. Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of heaven one needs to become as a little child. Seems Jesus was saying what you are saying here. Jesus said that, but it's up to each one to interpret what that actually means. For someone, that might mean to wear a diaper. And we come full circle, now we know what diaper guy was all about.  |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 16, 2024 1:19:00 GMT -5
I don't believe that, I have directly noticed the integrated movement. No one can act independently from the rest of the universe. Like the Pilgrim said, it's not about independence in the grand scheme of things where it reflects separation. You have your own set of beliefs in regard to what you believe an individual is in reflection of what the universe is etc. That's not the belief, that's the direct seeing. I was believing once that I was acting independently. But later it became very clear that I am not separate from the movement of rest of the universe. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 16, 2024 10:12:26 GMT -5
Like the Pilgrim said, it's not about independence in the grand scheme of things where it reflects separation. You have your own set of beliefs in regard to what you believe an individual is in reflection of what the universe is etc. That's not the belief, that's the direct seeing. I was believing once that I was acting independently. But later it became very clear that I am not separate from the movement of rest of the universe. But how things are now, doesn't mean things will always be that way. That's an assumption on your part. (Almost) all NDtists make this assumption. Ever read Jonathan Livingston Seagull? It's a great little book, you can read it in one sitting. All the other seagulls kept telling Jonathan he was nuts not accepting he was just a seagull. Gopal, you are not just a seagull. They actually made a film from the book, it wasn't bad, I don't know why it just disappeared. Neil Diamond did the music. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 19, 2024 14:48:37 GMT -5
It is a serious response with a touch of humour. Why is it that after so long interacting with N.D. peeps who speak about S.R. often don't you know what they are talking about regarding realisation? Don't get me wrong, I don't put blame at your door, I am still having the same conversations too, in order to get to the bottom of what certain peeps say. I understand all up one side and down the other as much as can be understood about realization, without actually having the SR-TR they write about. That's the point they all come back to. Realization can't be put into words. It's incommunicable. They continually point this out in various ways. It's not that complicated. But that's why they point, with pointers. So why would you say that not all pointers are reflecting the same thing? So one peep might point to the dream world and one to the real world. Why would you also say that some would argue their pointers and hold a strong stance even though they are only pointers that cannot explain what can't be explained. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 19, 2024 15:11:30 GMT -5
Like the Pilgrim said, it's not about independence in the grand scheme of things where it reflects separation. You have your own set of beliefs in regard to what you believe an individual is in reflection of what the universe is etc. That's not the belief, that's the direct seeing. I was believing once that I was acting independently. But later it became very clear that I am not separate from the movement of rest of the universe. No one is talking about separation only you are for some reason. I am speaking about being an individual that isn't separate from the rest of anything else. You have a belief in what the universe means to you don't you. You don't have a direct seeing in what the universe is without having a belief that the universe is the universe. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 20, 2024 3:32:46 GMT -5
That's not the belief, that's the direct seeing. I was believing once that I was acting independently. But later it became very clear that I am not separate from the movement of rest of the universe. No one is talking about separation only you are for some reason. I am speaking about being an individual that isn't separate from the rest of anything else. You have a belief in what the universe means to you don't you. You don't have a direct seeing in what the universe is without having a belief that the universe is the universe. It's a belief that I am not a separate individual, it's a direct seeing. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 20, 2024 7:23:02 GMT -5
No one is talking about separation only you are for some reason. I am speaking about being an individual that isn't separate from the rest of anything else. You have a belief in what the universe means to you don't you. You don't have a direct seeing in what the universe is without having a belief that the universe is the universe. It's a belief that I am not a separate individual, it's a direct seeing. Again for the record, no one is speaking about directly seeing through separation only you are. No-one is disputing that either from what I can see. You have a belief in what the universe is and means to you don't you or did you have a direct seeing that the universe is the universe based upon something else that wasn't previously known to you. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 21, 2024 5:28:16 GMT -5
It's a belief that I am not a separate individual, it's a direct seeing. Again for the record, no one is speaking about directly seeing through separation only you are. No-one is disputing that either from what I can see. You have a belief in what the universe is and means to you don't you or did you have a direct seeing that the universe is the universe based upon something else that wasn't previously known to you. I was believing something to be true but later that turned out to be false. One of the thing is, I believe that I am doing things here but later I came know that I am just experiencing the thought and reality. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 25, 2024 12:08:49 GMT -5
Being lonely makes you play with a fragment of yourself, while using your imagination? I was referring to Gopal's realization. He believes (or has 'realized' has he claims) that he cannot know if there are other perceivers. And in case there actually are other perceivers, they cannot know either. Which makes for awkward conversations with those 'others', of course, because potentially, he's always just talking to the figments of his own imagination, but he'll never know for sure. He can only assume. What a way to live!  Now, seen from the SVP perspective, however, and taking a purely logical approach, Gopal nevertheless has reached the correct conclusion. From the SR perspective though, it's the wrong conclusion, because you cannot have realized Self and then be in doubt about Self (appearing as 'others'). But then again, Gopal has no claim to SR (as opposed to some others who believe the same), so in that sense he's reached a final conclusion, even though, in actuality, it is the wrong conclusion. So at best, this is just a provisional truth, that will have to be discarded later. SR will blow that apart. But that kind predicament just comes with the territory. A purely intellectual approach will forever leave you in doubt about your answers and conclusions to existential questions. That's why mental kungfu cannot give you peace of mind. |
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