|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 14, 2024 14:43:01 GMT -5
I honestly don't know if this is a serious response or not. It is a serious response with a touch of humour. Why is it that after so long interacting with N.D. peeps who speak about S.R. often don't you know what they are talking about regarding realisation? Don't get me wrong, I don't put blame at your door, I am still having the same conversations too, in order to get to the bottom of what certain peeps say. I understand all up one side and down the other as much as can be understood about realization, without actually having the SR-TR they write about. That's the point they all come back to. Realization can't be put into words. It's incommunicable. They continually point this out in various ways. It's not that complicated. But that's why they point, with pointers. |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 14, 2024 18:17:10 GMT -5
It is a serious response with a touch of humour. Why is it that after so long interacting with N.D. peeps who speak about S.R. often don't you know what they are talking about regarding realisation? Don't get me wrong, I don't put blame at your door, I am still having the same conversations too, in order to get to the bottom of what certain peeps say. I understand all up one side and down the other as much as can be understood about realization, without actually having the SR-TR they write about. That's the point they all come back to. Realization can't be put into words. It's incommunicable. They continually point this out in various ways. It's not that complicated. But that's why they point, with pointers. I should stop beating a dead horse (what an awful idiom!) ... I'll attempt to do that. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 14, 2024 19:50:42 GMT -5
I understand all up one side and down the other as much as can be understood about realization, without actually having the SR-TR they write about. That's the point they all come back to. Realization can't be put into words. It's incommunicable. They continually point this out in various ways. It's not that complicated. But that's why they point, with pointers. I should stop beating a dead horse (what an awful idiom!) ... I'll attempt to do that. Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. All that just does not compute for the Self-Realized AKA the Truth Realized. They say how can there be more than All That Is? So I just try to express my view, they just keep trying to convert me, meaning, trigger a Realization. They basically say: You can't imagine. I basically say: You can't imagine. They say, you just don't understand. I say, you just don't understand.  But yes, I see their perspective as putting a stick in the spokes, subverting the intended process, a stuckness. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aside, there used to be an absolutely malicious atmosphere here. [Think Animal Farm, that image just came to mind]. New people would drop in, share their truth, and get ripped to shreds, and leave. There were regular 'food fights', malicious debates, nasty picture-memes, just out and out attacks on each other. Then Reefs took over the moderation, asked to be the moderator, took it upon himself to clean up Dodge City. He made some rules, enforced them. Some people left, some people were banned. So it's like paradise here now. This is a nice place now. I'm not sure why we don't get more new people, participating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ someNOTHING opening up and posting about his exploration of Plotinus and the Enneads, and his diagram, is highly unusual, and a good thing. ...I think he has to depart from time to time, and maybe refuel. He'll be back. Plotinus is a kind of middle-ground. |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 14, 2024 21:50:14 GMT -5
I should stop beating a dead horse (what an awful idiom!) ... I'll attempt to do that. Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. All that just does not compute for the Self-Realized AKA the Truth Realized. They say how can there be more than All That Is? So I just try to express my view, they just keep trying to convert me, meaning, trigger a Realization. They basically say: You can't imagine. I basically say: You can't imagine. They say, you just don't understand. I say, you just don't understand. But yes, I see their perspective as putting a stick in the spokes, subverting the intended process, a stuckness. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aside, there used to be an absolutely malicious atmosphere here. [Think Animal Farm, that image just came to mind]. New people would drop in, share their truth, and get ripped to shreds, and leave. There were regular 'food fights', malicious debates, nasty picture-memes, just out and out attacks on each other. Then Reefs took over the moderation, asked to be the moderator, took it upon himself to clean up Dodge City. He made some rules, enforced them. Some people left, some people were banned. So it's like paradise here now. This is a nice place now. I'm not sure why we don't get more new people, participating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ someNOTHING opening up and posting about his exploration of Plotinus and the Enneads, and his diagram, is highly unusual, and a good thing. ...I think he has to depart from time to time, and maybe refuel. He'll be back. Plotinus is a kind of middle-ground. During one of my very first out-of-body experiences, I encountered a feminine entity that irradiated a feeling of bliss, supreme peace and happiness that engulfed me; I lay down next to her, and I needn't anything else, like forever. Years later, I got the explanation that that experience was to encourage me in my exploration beginnings, to calm down all fears. In other lucid dreams I had experiences in which everything seemed clear to me, I understood everything, but then I woke up with that feeling, without recalling any details. The subsequent explanation was that those experiences were meant to show me that there is a sense in everything, although I am not yet able to understand it. So my critical factor had been turned off, to have the feeling of knowing without actually knowing. From where I am now, it just doesn't matter what people claim. Occasionally, I express my views. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 14, 2024 23:11:07 GMT -5
Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. All that just does not compute for the Self-Realized AKA the Truth Realized. They say how can there be more than All That Is? So I just try to express my view, they just keep trying to convert me, meaning, trigger a Realization. They basically say: You can't imagine. I basically say: You can't imagine. They say, you just don't understand. I say, you just don't understand. But yes, I see their perspective as putting a stick in the spokes, subverting the intended process, a stuckness. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aside, there used to be an absolutely malicious atmosphere here. [Think Animal Farm, that image just came to mind]. New people would drop in, share their truth, and get ripped to shreds, and leave. There were regular 'food fights', malicious debates, nasty picture-memes, just out and out attacks on each other. Then Reefs took over the moderation, asked to be the moderator, took it upon himself to clean up Dodge City. He made some rules, enforced them. Some people left, some people were banned. So it's like paradise here now. This is a nice place now. I'm not sure why we don't get more new people, participating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ someNOTHING opening up and posting about his exploration of Plotinus and the Enneads, and his diagram, is highly unusual, and a good thing. ...I think he has to depart from time to time, and maybe refuel. He'll be back. Plotinus is a kind of middle-ground. During one of my very first out-of-body experiences, I encountered a feminine entity that irradiated a feeling of bliss, supreme peace and happiness that engulfed me; I lay down next to her, and I needn't anything else, like forever. Years later, I got the explanation that that experience was to encourage me in my exploration beginnings, to calm down all fears. In other lucid dreams I had experiences in which everything seemed clear to me, I understood everything, but then I woke up with that feeling, without recalling any details. The subsequent explanation was that those experiences were meant to show me that there is a sense in everything, although I am not yet able to understand it. So my critical factor had been turned off, to have the feeling of knowing without actually knowing. From where I am now, it just doesn't matter what people claim. Occasionally, I express my views. Exactly, it doesn't matter, to me, what people claim. |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jan 15, 2024 0:13:02 GMT -5
During one of my very first out-of-body experiences, I encountered a feminine entity that irradiated a feeling of bliss, supreme peace and happiness that engulfed me; I lay down next to her, and I needn't anything else, like forever. Years later, I got the explanation that that experience was to encourage me in my exploration beginnings, to calm down all fears. In other lucid dreams I had experiences in which everything seemed clear to me, I understood everything, but then I woke up with that feeling, without recalling any details. The subsequent explanation was that those experiences were meant to show me that there is a sense in everything, although I am not yet able to understand it. So my critical factor had been turned off, to have the feeling of knowing without actually knowing. From where I am now, it just doesn't matter what people claim. Occasionally, I express my views. Exactly, it doesn't matter, to me, what people claim. I thought this sentence would catch your attention  |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 15, 2024 9:04:37 GMT -5
I should stop beating a dead horse (what an awful idiom!) ... I'll attempt to do that. Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. All that just does not compute for the Self-Realized AKA the Truth Realized. They say how can there be more than All That Is? So I just try to express my view, they just keep trying to convert me, meaning, trigger a Realization. They basically say: You can't imagine. I basically say: You can't imagine. They say, you just don't understand. I say, you just don't understand. But yes, I see their perspective as putting a stick in the spokes, subverting the intended process, a stuckness. I thought that this issue had been discussed thoroughly in the past, but let's give it another shot. THIS, in the form of a particular human, desires to understand something. In all cases, the individual initially thinks that he/she is a separate entity. Eventually, if the seeker searches and discovers something that results in peace of mind, there is satisfaction and the search comes to an end. For each seeker this happens in different ways, and what ends the search can vary enormously. I know many people who have never questioned the concensus paradigm. They're satisfied with a conventional understanding of reality (reality is composed of separate things being seen by a separate "me"), so there's nothing existential that they seek to know. Unlike that group of people I have a friend who, after seeking for many years, had a realization that the search, itself, was what he called "a mind game," and that's what it took for him to be satisfied. He felt like he then understood what he wanted to understand, and he considered his search finished. From my POV he stopped before finding THIS/Source/his True Self, but he's satisfied, so there's no longer a need to search for anything. I know someone else who wanted to understand ND. He contemplated the issue and read some books, and after about two years, he had a sudden realization that THIS is all there is, and that ended his active searching. From my POV, there are some other important things to see, but he's satisfied, so he's no longer actively seeking anything. This character/"I" had dozens of existential questions. That questioning resulted in many unusual events and realizations, and eventually THIS was discovered to be the only doer and that who I had once thought I was was fictional. That ended active searching because there was then an understanding that resulted in peace of mind. In short, THIS, in the form of this character, discovered what IT wanted to know. Is there more that might be discovered in the future? of course, because THIS is infinite and mysterious. As I've mentioned before, Hakuin had numerous CC's and realizations and eventually his search came to an end. He was satisfied and was no longer seeking anything. Two years after his search ended, he claimed that he had the deepest and most powerful kensho of his life triggered by the sound of falling snow while he was meditating. I assume that the kensho was a huge CC, but he never described what happened in detail so there's no way to know for sure exactly what happened. In short, active seeking can come to an end, but that doesn't mean that no other insights will occur. Discovering THIS and the illusory nature of the SVP is the primary insight that most ND sages point to, but I can't think of a single one of them who has claimed that no other insights will ever occur. The pathless path is infinite in depth and profundity, and seekers stop actively seeking when enough has been seen and understood to result in peace of mind. Peace of mind, however, does not imply that nothing else will ever be discovered. FWIW, in the Zen tradition "holy Buddhahood" is considered to be a state of being that is beyond the discovery of THIS. I assume that it's a state of such deep unity that only a tiny handful of people ever manifest what that phrase is pointing to. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2024 9:45:23 GMT -5
Exactly, it doesn't matter, to me, what people claim. I thought this sentence would catch your attention My critical factor had been turned off to have the feeling of knowing without really actually knowing, this sentence. Nope, didn't catch anything there. But I thought of a further respond to both you and tenka, concerning the question. I decided to start a thread concerning the question. It relates to your purpled sentence. First word of the new thread, Focus. I'll read ZD and come back to the new thread. I wouldn't be surprised if ZD's post-reply connects also. But the new thread is about trying to get everyone together, on the same page. Maybe they know things that you and tenka don't know, the NDtists, just as they have some things to learn from plural you. I try never to let my critical factor be turned off. But that's not so easy to do. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2024 10:26:18 GMT -5
Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. All that just does not compute for the Self-Realized AKA the Truth Realized. They say how can there be more than All That Is? So I just try to express my view, they just keep trying to convert me, meaning, trigger a Realization. They basically say: You can't imagine. I basically say: You can't imagine. They say, you just don't understand. I say, you just don't understand. But yes, I see their perspective as putting a stick in the spokes, subverting the intended process, a stuckness. I thought that this issue had been discussed thoroughly in the past, but let's give it another shot. THIS, in the form of a particular human, desires to understand something. In all cases, the individual initially thinks that he/she is a separate entity. Eventually, if the seeker searches and discovers something that results in peace of mind, there is satisfaction and the search comes to an end. For each seeker this happens in different ways, and what ends the search can vary enormously. I know many people who have never questioned the concensus paradigm. They're satisfied with a conventional understanding of reality (reality is composed of separate things being seen by a separate "me"), so there's nothing existential that they seek to know. Unlike that group of people I have a friend who, after seeking for many years, had a realization that the search, itself, was what he called "a mind game," and that's what it took for him to be satisfied. He felt like he then understood what he wanted to understand, and he considered his search finished. From my POV he stopped before finding THIS/Source/his True Self, but he's satisfied, so there's no longer a need to search for anything. I know someone else who wanted to understand ND. He contemplated the issue and read some books, and after about two years, he had a sudden realization that THIS is all there is, and that ended his active searching. From my POV, there are some other important things to see, but he's satisfied, so he's no longer actively seeking anything. This character/"I" had dozens of existential questions. That questioning resulted in many unusual events and realizations, and eventually THIS was discovered to be the only doer and that who I had once thought I was was fictional. That ended active searching because there was then an understanding that resulted in peace of mind. In short, THIS, in the form of this character, discovered what IT wanted to know. Is there more that might be discovered in the future? of course, because THIS is infinite and mysterious. As I've mentioned before, Hakuin had numerous CC's and realizations and eventually his search came to an end. He was satisfied and was no longer seeking anything. Two years after his search ended, he claimed that he had the deepest and most powerful kensho of his life triggered by the sound of falling snow while he was meditating. I assume that the kensho was a huge CC, but he never described what happened in detail so there's no way to know for sure exactly what happened. In short, active seeking can come to an end, but that doesn't mean that no other insights will occur. Discovering THIS and the illusory nature of the SVP is the primary insight that most ND sages point to, but I can't think of a single one of them who has claimed that no other insights will ever occur. The pathless path is infinite in depth and profundity, and seekers stop actively seeking when enough has been seen and understood to result in peace of mind. Peace of mind, however, does not imply that nothing else will ever be discovered. FWIW, in the Zen tradition "holy Buddhahood" is considered to be a state of being that is beyond the discovery of THIS. I assume that it's a state of such deep unity that only a tiny handful of people ever manifest what that phrase is pointing to. As far as sdp is concerned, peace of mind is a VERY low bar. It's so low a caterpillar can crawl over it. What sdp is interested in is this. I've read a lot of Zen, never came across this. That All That Is is All That Is, is a tautology for sdp. And no, there isn't anything outside All That Is, there isn't a separate person. I sorted through that in my '20s from reading Alan Watts. It didn't end anything, was significant only in that I remembered the process. I mentioned a new book, for me, I just started reading. I've read Cheri Huber for probably 20 years, had seen this her latest book, never pulled the trigger. The Big Bamboozle pulls together my view, your view, and hopefully speak to tenka and inavalan. Learning my practice, there is a state of exquisite bliss, a "good feeling". It's there most of the time for sdp. But our teacher, many years ago, over 45 years ago, said, just out of the blue, nobody asked him, this good feeling that you get, that's not what we're after. I'll be back, don't know how long it will take, I always try to be short, but usually fail. Focus, how the Con Artist (almost) always wins. Con Artist is Cheri Huber's language for the little man in the head, which is almost any dialogue, in the head. (People just think they're thinking, that's what the consensus crowd merely calls self, of course ZD knows that. But there is such a thing as intentional contemplation, or pondering, which isn't just thinking). |
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Jan 15, 2024 11:18:50 GMT -5
That requires a direct encounter with the Divine in one form or another. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 15, 2024 12:35:37 GMT -5
That requires a direct encounter with the Divine in one form or another. Yes, and often more than that. Many people encounter the Divine and afterwards still think that they are separate volitional entities that at one time encountered the Divine. This is probably the most basic pitfall on the pathless path. What's pointed to beyond encountering the Divine AND realizing that what one is is not separate from the Divine, is probably what Zen people call a state of "no mind" in which reflective thought becomes so inconsequential that intentionality, in any conventional sense, is no longer in play. There is joy in helping other people find and feel joy, happiness, freedom, peace, equanimity, etc, but without reflective thoughts ABOUT any such activity. One lives as a manifested aspect of the Divine in what the words "Nirvana/the Kingdom of God" point to but without reflecting about such a state or way of life. This is why ZM's often say that even enlightenment and Nirvana must be left behind. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 15, 2024 15:19:27 GMT -5
I should stop beating a dead horse (what an awful idiom!) ... I'll attempt to do that. Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. I've refrained, over the years, for the most part, from directly addressing those questions to you in reply. The realization that ended seeking for me wasn't even a proper, single-instant realization as we've modeled it here. My "model" (really, more aptly, my story) blurs both realization and experience and experience and informing of mind. I reconcile with the standard realization model (SRM TM) by acknowledging that the experiences sort of "wrap-around" a realization, and that's what I remember more clearly, the experiences, although there is one particular significant realization (that I regard the most significant) I can describe the moment of in detail. That said, there are three things that end with a particular realization: self-inquiry, confusion of mind, and the fear of death. At the end of self-inquiry is an absence of either certainty or uncertainty on the matter. The dichotomy simply doesn't apply. Anything more that I write beyond that might have the potential to help someone deepen their understanding, but it definitely has the potential to add to confusion. The "spiritual journey" doesn't "end". For as long as you or I are drawing breath, the mind and the body are subject to change. That is quite obvious, and, furthermore, you continually overlook what zd has written and said about this over the years. He even revised the 2nd version of Concrete to make that point. Not everyone who points to the existential truth points in exactly the same way. In fact, anyone who does sound exactly like someone else pointing is probably just repeating based on, at best, a sort of faith, or, at worst, an enthusiastic but misplaced parroting. So, with that in mind, let's take up your question about the "intent of Source". A common realization is that of the limit of intellect, and this can be expressed quite flatly as that nothing the intellect can express has any existential meaning. This can sound like nihilism to the heart, but there is something far more profound underlying. I can recognize the descriptions of this realization from both reefs' and zd's stories. Reefs refers to it as "Philosophy 101". ZD includes an amusing tale in Concrete where he first asks "why am I chanting in Korean??  ", and then suddenly realizes "why". Adyashanti used the metaphor of a wall, that, once hit, the mind either stops, in silence, or travels parallel to and along in a futile and endless rush. So in one sense no, "Source has no intent". Not the sort of intent you can map out or build any theory around. At one point in his debates with you, E' started flipping contexts between "you are God", and "there is no God". Personally, I'd say it's an improvement to recognize that the common-mind conception of the "will of God" is flawed rather than shaking your fists at the heavens for hurricanes and famines. And, this is another example of how you ignore what zd has written to you repeatedly. He uses the notion of "intelligence" to point. Reefs sometimes points similarly using LOA-based alignment as applied to the individual. The way I put it is this: there is no conception of human virtue that can be codified. There is no expression of ethics, no matter even if it contains the optimal measure of heart, that can't be broken by the right hypothetical. It is possible, however, for the appearance of human virtue to manifest spontaneously, in the moment. That's the human view. And then beyond the human view, there is the entirety of all perception at your disposal to regard that "intent" of "Source". Just look, listen, taste and feel. Even the mind has a hint of this, in the form of the theory of evolution. Nothing personal about it though. Ain't no bearded dude on a cloud playing fantasy Earth, and "Source" is only a pointer, which your mind has hazard to objectify. It's not that you haven't been provided answers to these questions. You have, in terms of pointing. But you have either not payed enough attention to notice, or ignored them and/or refused to accept them. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 15, 2024 15:37:39 GMT -5
Yea...join the club. Two things, I've tried to ask (them) for 15 years, how do you know that what you don't experience (they don't call it an experience), but have a realization of, is the final Ground-Base-Source-Absolute? How can you possibly know there isn't something deeper? The second thing is, even if you have realized the Source, why does that put an end to the spiritual journey? I used to try to put it (the question) in terms of maybe Source has an intention to ~construct by way of creativity~, to add to the expression of What Already Is? They say Source doesn't have any intentions, it just is. All that just does not compute for the Self-Realized AKA the Truth Realized. They say how can there be more than All That Is? So I just try to express my view, they just keep trying to convert me, meaning, trigger a Realization. They basically say: You can't imagine. I basically say: You can't imagine. They say, you just don't understand. I say, you just don't understand. But yes, I see their perspective as putting a stick in the spokes, subverting the intended process, a stuckness. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aside, there used to be an absolutely malicious atmosphere here. [Think Animal Farm, that image just came to mind]. New people would drop in, share their truth, and get ripped to shreds, and leave. There were regular 'food fights', malicious debates, nasty picture-memes, just out and out attacks on each other. Then Reefs took over the moderation, asked to be the moderator, took it upon himself to clean up Dodge City. He made some rules, enforced them. Some people left, some people were banned. So it's like paradise here now. This is a nice place now. I'm not sure why we don't get more new people, participating. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ someNOTHING opening up and posting about his exploration of Plotinus and the Enneads, and his diagram, is highly unusual, and a good thing. ...I think he has to depart from time to time, and maybe refuel. He'll be back. Plotinus is a kind of middle-ground. During one of my very first out-of-body experiences, I encountered a feminine entity that irradiated a feeling of bliss, supreme peace and happiness that engulfed me; I lay down next to her, and I needn't anything else, like forever. Years later, I got the explanation that that experience was to encourage me in my exploration beginnings, to calm down all fears. In other lucid dreams I had experiences in which everything seemed clear to me, I understood everything, but then I woke up with that feeling, without recalling any details. The subsequent explanation was that those experiences were meant to show me that there is a sense in everything, although I am not yet able to understand it. So my critical factor had been turned off, to have the feeling of knowing without actually knowing. From where I am now, it just doesn't matter what people claim. Occasionally, I express my views. Acid trippers know this exact feeling. It's amusing, but it ain't no joke. It's also a facet of what's been written about on the forum as a "Cosmic Consciousness" experience (CC tm). As far as this is concerned. The end of the common-mind's reliance on limited knowledge can be expressed in opposite terms. There is a translation of a stanza of the Tao Te Ching that goes "true words sound paradoxical". The way I point to "meaning" is by the notion that every instant, every perception, even the most subtle, is resplendent with an ineffable meaning that defies explanation, and so is absent any meaning within the grasp of mind. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 15, 2024 15:39:22 GMT -5
During one of my very first out-of-body experiences, I encountered a feminine entity that irradiated a feeling of bliss, supreme peace and happiness that engulfed me; I lay down next to her, and I needn't anything else, like forever. Years later, I got the explanation that that experience was to encourage me in my exploration beginnings, to calm down all fears. In other lucid dreams I had experiences in which everything seemed clear to me, I understood everything, but then I woke up with that feeling, without recalling any details. The subsequent explanation was that those experiences were meant to show me that there is a sense in everything, although I am not yet able to understand it. So my critical factor had been turned off, to have the feeling of knowing without actually knowing. From where I am now, it just doesn't matter what people claim. Occasionally, I express my views. Exactly, it doesn't matter, to me, what people claim. And yet, methinks thou dost protest too much.  |
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Jan 15, 2024 21:31:42 GMT -5
That requires a direct encounter with the Divine in one form or another. Yes, and often more than that. Many people encounter the Divine and afterwards still think that they are separate volitional entities that at one time encountered the Divine. This is probably the most basic pitfall on the pathless path. What's pointed to beyond encountering the Divine AND realizing that what one is is not separate from the Divine, is probably what Zen people call a state of "no mind" in which reflective thought becomes so inconsequential that intentionality, in any conventional sense, is no longer in play. There is joy in helping other people find and feel joy, happiness, freedom, peace, equanimity, etc, but without reflective thoughts ABOUT any such activity. One lives as a manifested aspect of the Divine in what the words "Nirvana/the Kingdom of God" point to but without reflecting about such a state or way of life. This is why ZM's often say that even enlightenment and Nirvana must be left behind. I just finished watching my 4 year old grandson for several hours. He moves from one moment to the next without ever looking back. Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of heaven one needs to become as a little child. Seems Jesus was saying what you are saying here. |
|
