"There is only what you are" (Tenka stuff)

[zendancer]

Dec 7, 2019 4:07:22 GMT -5 tenka said:

Dec 6, 2019 16:27:59 GMT -5 zendancer said:

If there is no thinking, no thoughts like that occur.

Butt this makes no sense when one moves out of the way of the elephant ..

This is why I say what I say about thought and thinking ..

You say when there is no thinking there isn't the awareness of the sun on your face .

This means that one has transcended mind . There is no awareness of the elephant or the world, or the awareness of I AM ..

Previously when I spoke to you and the pilgrim and perhaps a few other's on this my thought's on this were not correct .

The thing is, and this is the crux of misunderstandings here is that I can attain a one pointed focus on the candle flame or as I do often sun gaze and I can be gazing without thinking about it .. Most can go running without thinking about it, my mum used to do the cleaning in a trance state but there is perception of the sun, there is perception of the hoover and where there is perception, there I AM and there is the world and there is the thought of it . (without thinking about it) .

Not thinking about stuff doesn't refer to mind and self being transcended . This is why you move out of the way of the elephant .

It makes no sense does it to have transcended thought, thinking mind and self and move out of the way of the elephant and yet not be aware of the sun on your face . It can't be true on both accounts .

There is either mind or there isn't, there is I AM awareness or there isn't and you can't be aware of I AM of the mind without thought, especially when moving out of the way of the elephant .

I didn't say that there's no awareness of the sun on one's face in the absence of thinking. I said that there are no thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening. There is a huge difference between the direct awareness of "what is" and thoughts.

[Deleted]

Dec 7, 2019 9:10:04 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 7, 2019 4:07:22 GMT -5 tenka said:

Butt this makes no sense when one moves out of the way of the elephant ..

This is why I say what I say about thought and thinking ..

You say when there is no thinking there isn't the awareness of the sun on your face .

This means that one has transcended mind . There is no awareness of the elephant or the world, or the awareness of I AM ..

Previously when I spoke to you and the pilgrim and perhaps a few other's on this my thought's on this were not correct .

The thing is, and this is the crux of misunderstandings here is that I can attain a one pointed focus on the candle flame or as I do often sun gaze and I can be gazing without thinking about it .. Most can go running without thinking about it, my mum used to do the cleaning in a trance state but there is perception of the sun, there is perception of the hoover and where there is perception, there I AM and there is the world and there is the thought of it . (without thinking about it) .

Not thinking about stuff doesn't refer to mind and self being transcended . This is why you move out of the way of the elephant .

It makes no sense does it to have transcended thought, thinking mind and self and move out of the way of the elephant and yet not be aware of the sun on your face . It can't be true on both accounts .

There is either mind or there isn't, there is I AM awareness or there isn't and you can't be aware of I AM of the mind without thought, especially when moving out of the way of the elephant .

I didn't say that there's no awareness of the sun on one's face in the absence of thinking. I said that there are no thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening. There is a huge difference between the direct awareness of "what is" and thoughts.

If you think this is an elephant charging at me, you'll be as Laughy says, a pancake. ZD makes a distinction between thinking, mind only words, images and stories and hearing, tasting, seeing, feeling, touching, smelling. You don't need to think to recognize an elephant, unless you consider instinct, a form of thinking, which is fine. It's just not what ZD is talking about. Hedderman calls it "living in what's not happening." In other words you're painting the house and thinking about your hot date the night before or whether you'll have enough money to pay the taxes or whether you accidentally sent your boss a pic of your naked arse.

[tenka]

Dec 7, 2019 9:10:04 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 7, 2019 4:07:22 GMT -5 tenka said:

Butt this makes no sense when one moves out of the way of the elephant ..

This is why I say what I say about thought and thinking ..

You say when there is no thinking there isn't the awareness of the sun on your face .

This means that one has transcended mind . There is no awareness of the elephant or the world, or the awareness of I AM ..

Previously when I spoke to you and the pilgrim and perhaps a few other's on this my thought's on this were not correct .

The thing is, and this is the crux of misunderstandings here is that I can attain a one pointed focus on the candle flame or as I do often sun gaze and I can be gazing without thinking about it .. Most can go running without thinking about it, my mum used to do the cleaning in a trance state but there is perception of the sun, there is perception of the hoover and where there is perception, there I AM and there is the world and there is the thought of it . (without thinking about it) .

Not thinking about stuff doesn't refer to mind and self being transcended . This is why you move out of the way of the elephant .

It makes no sense does it to have transcended thought, thinking mind and self and move out of the way of the elephant and yet not be aware of the sun on your face . It can't be true on both accounts .

There is either mind or there isn't, there is I AM awareness or there isn't and you can't be aware of I AM of the mind without thought, especially when moving out of the way of the elephant .

I didn't say that there's no awareness of the sun on one's face in the absence of thinking. I said that there are no thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening. There is a huge difference between the direct awareness of "what is" and thoughts.

When I asked where has the witness gone when you stop thinking but you feel the sun upon your face ..

You replied no thoughts like that occur ..

So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face .

You seem to think that you can be aware of stuff and not be of a mindful environment that entertains the thought of it .

So let me ask you again in a slightly different way without using the words thinking or thought and say where is the witness when you are aware of the sun burning your face ..

I will say that if there is awareness of the sun as a sense of the mind-body then the witness is present .

There is not the transcendence of mind ..

The absence of thinking doesn’t equate to the absence of the mindful witness .

This is why you move out the way of the elephant because you are more than just aware of the elephant .

If you didn’t have a thought of what being aware of a elephant means, then one wouldn’t move a muscle .

This is why you don’t have to be thinking about the elephant, a thought is suffice . Suffice enough to react accordingly .

You can't be aware of the world and not have a thought of the world .

To pretend otherwise would be a tad silly .

[zendancer]

Dec 7, 2019 10:02:33 GMT -5 tenka said:

Dec 7, 2019 9:10:04 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I didn't say that there's no awareness of the sun on one's face in the absence of thinking. I said that there are no thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening. There is a huge difference between the direct awareness of "what is" and thoughts.

When I asked where has the witness gone when you stop thinking but you feel the sun upon your face ..

You replied no thoughts like that occur ..

So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face .

You seem to think that you can be aware of stuff and not be of a mindful environment that entertains the thought of it .

So let me ask you again in a slightly different way without using the words thinking or thought and say where is the witness when you are aware of the sun burning your face ..

I will say that if there is awareness of the sun as a sense of the mind-body then the witness is present .

There is not the transcendence of mind ..

The absence of thinking doesn’t equate to the absence of the mindful witness .

This is why you move out the way of the elephant because you are more than just aware of the elephant .

If you didn’t have a thought of what being aware of a elephant means, then one wouldn’t move a muscle .

This is why you don’t have to be thinking about the elephant, a thought is suffice . Suffice enough to react accordingly .

You can't be aware of the world and not have a thought of the world .

To pretend otherwise would be a tad silly .

As Zazeniac correctly explained, there is a difference between mind talk and direct sensory perception. THIS (what we are) is intelligent, and in the form of humans most of what the body does is handled subconsciously and reflective thought is not necessary. We learn to tie our shoes or ride a bicycle when we are young, and no thoughts are necessary for learning those tasks. It's a case of "see and do." The learning is direct. As adults, we don't have to think about tying our shoes or riding a bicycle any more than we did when we were learning those tasks. In fact, most adults are thinking all kinds of other unrelated thoughts while tying their shoes.

By persistently shifting attention away from thoughts, mind talk (reflective thinking) can totally cease. When all mind talk ceases, there remains only awareness, intelligence, and subconscious processing based on past conditioning and learning. IOW, there are two different kinds of knowing--(1) direct knowing or (2) reflective/intellectual/discursive/symbolic/linguistic/imaginative knowing. Zen and Advaita people are primarily interested in "what is" rather than meta-realities ABOUT "what is" created by imagination. Zen refers to a silent mind as "no mind" because reflective thought is either totally absent or substantially absent. In Ramana's case I suspect that reflective thinking was totally absent.

When there is no reflective thinking, there are no verbal mental thoughts ABOUT what's happening. Everything is direct and obvious, and the body functions in total silence. No idea of a witness is present as well as any other idea.

[laughter]

Dec 7, 2019 9:28:37 GMT -5 zazeniac said:

Dec 7, 2019 9:10:04 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I didn't say that there's no awareness of the sun on one's face in the absence of thinking. I said that there are no thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening. There is a huge difference between the direct awareness of "what is" and thoughts.

If you think this is an elephant charging at me, you'll be as Laughy says, a pancake. ZD makes a distinction between thinking, mind only words, images and stories and hearing, tasting, seeing, feeling, touching, smelling. You don't need to think to recognize an elephant, unless you consider instinct, a form of thinking, which is fine. It's just not what ZD is talking about. Hedderman calls it "living in what's not happening." In other words you're painting the house and thinking about your hot date the night before or whether you'll have enough money to pay the taxes or whether you accidentally sent your boss a pic of your naked arse.

Not to imply that you don't know any of this already, but rather, just to throw two more cents into it:

The distinction between thought and action is a thing .. well .. because it is. Now, the potential for complexity in exploring the similarities, differences and relationships between thought and action is beyond huge.

But. There is a very simple bottom-line: action, free of thought, is quite possible.

[stardustpilgrim]

Dec 7, 2019 10:02:33 GMT -5 tenka said:

Dec 7, 2019 9:10:04 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I didn't say that there's no awareness of the sun on one's face in the absence of thinking. I said that there are no thoughts ABOUT whatever is happening. There is a huge difference between the direct awareness of "what is" and thoughts.

When I asked where has the witness gone when you stop thinking but you feel the sun upon your face ..

You replied no thoughts like that occur ..

So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face .

You seem to think that you can be aware of stuff and not be of a mindful environment that entertains the thought of it .

So let me ask you again in a slightly different way without using the words thinking or thought and say where is the witness when you are aware of the sun burning your face ..

I will say that if there is awareness of the sun as a sense of the mind-body then the witness is present .

There is not the transcendence of mind ..

The absence of thinking doesn’t equate to the absence of the mindful witness .

This is why you move out the way of the elephant because you are more than just aware of the elephant .

If you didn’t have a thought of what being aware of a elephant means, then one wouldn’t move a muscle .

This is why you don’t have to be thinking about the elephant, a thought is suffice . Suffice enough to react accordingly .

You can't be aware of the world and not have a thought of the world .

To pretend otherwise would be a tad silly .

tenka, I may have an example that will clear all this up for you. Take a newborn baby. The only way a newborn can communicate in some sense, and it really isn't even intended as communication, is to cry. I hope you will agree that a newborn baby does not have conceptual thinking. But when baby is hungry, baby cries. Is baby aware it is hungry? Yes, it cries. Does baby say in any way, verbally, to itself, internally, I'm hungry? No. When baby has an uncomfortable sensation at its bottom, wet, cold, mushy, baby cries. Does baby in any sense have a conceptual thought, Oh, f***, stinky diaper again? No, of course not. But baby is aware of wet, cold, mushy bottom. Crying is proof of awareness of.

In the same way, conceptual mirroring thinking is not necessary in experiencing life. Warm Sun on the face, one does not have to have a conceptual thought, sun on the face. Just do it right now, sensing is very easy. Sense your face. You will find tension there you didn't know was there. Thought pops up. Ignore thought, just sense face. You don't even have to think, sense face. Just try this for a few minutes, or as long as it takes. You will eventually have experiential knowledge concerning what people have pointed out to you hundreds of times. Thinking is/can be such a burden. Take a vacation from thinking...

Now, this could take a very long time to experience. Could. You could try for hours and a thought will keep popping up. You could try for hours a day, for days, and thoughts keep popping up. But, eventually, pure awareness can win out over thoughts popping up. It could be put this way. A newborn baby has no-place for conceptual thought, this is not even possible. But, tenka still has open empty awareness "space" ~just in the same manner~ as newborn tenka. You can discover that no-thinking empty "space".

And, not that you need to know, but that not-thinking space is very near and very real. It's your right brain hemisphere. Your right brain ~likes~ images, "thinks" in images. Images which are wordless. But awareness itself, is wordless and image-less. IOW, content-less.

[tenka]

Dec 7, 2019 10:32:58 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 7, 2019 10:02:33 GMT -5 tenka said:

When I asked where has the witness gone when you stop thinking but you feel the sun upon your face ..

You replied no thoughts like that occur ..

So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face .

You seem to think that you can be aware of stuff and not be of a mindful environment that entertains the thought of it .

So let me ask you again in a slightly different way without using the words thinking or thought and say where is the witness when you are aware of the sun burning your face ..

I will say that if there is awareness of the sun as a sense of the mind-body then the witness is present .

There is not the transcendence of mind ..

The absence of thinking doesn’t equate to the absence of the mindful witness .

This is why you move out the way of the elephant because you are more than just aware of the elephant .

If you didn’t have a thought of what being aware of a elephant means, then one wouldn’t move a muscle .

This is why you don’t have to be thinking about the elephant, a thought is suffice . Suffice enough to react accordingly .

You can't be aware of the world and not have a thought of the world .

To pretend otherwise would be a tad silly .

As Zazeniac correctly explained, there is a difference between mind talk and direct sensory perception. THIS (what we are) is intelligent, and in the form of humans most of what the body does is handled subconsciously and reflective thought is not necessary. We learn to tie our shoes or ride a bicycle when we are young, and no thoughts are necessary for learning those tasks. It's a case of "see and do." The learning is direct. As adults, we don't have to think about tying our shoes or riding a bicycle any more than we did when we were learning those tasks. In fact, most adults are thinking all kinds of other unrelated thoughts while tying their shoes.

By persistently shifting attention away from thoughts, mind talk (reflective thinking) can totally cease. When all mind talk ceases, there remains only awareness, intelligence, and subconscious processing based on past conditioning and learning. IOW, there are two different kinds of knowing--(1) direct knowing or (2) reflective/intellectual/discursive/symbolic/linguistic/imaginative knowing. Zen and Advaita people are primarily interested in "what is" rather than meta-realities ABOUT "what is" created by imagination. Zen refers to a silent mind as "no mind" because reflective thought is either totally absent or substantially absent. In Ramana's case I suspect that reflective thinking was totally absent.

When there is no reflective thinking, there are no verbal mental thoughts ABOUT what's happening. Everything is direct and obvious, and the body functions in total silence. No idea of a witness is present as well as any other idea.

You are barking up the wrong tree here . Let me put it another way, you are aware that a family member is upset .

You don’t have to think about the inns and outs of why they are, you simply are aware that they are .

You cannot transcend mind beyond thought while you are aware that a family member is upset .

Your over doing it here regarding mind talk and direct sensory perception .

You talk about what we are as intelligence, just like other’s speak about what we are being consciousness or awareness .

You can’t be aware of something mindful and not entertain a thought of what one is aware of .

It’s that simple ..

You seem to divide thinking and thought here like you always do ..

Where is the witness when you are aware of the sufferings of another?

If you say, the witness has transcended mind, I am going to send an elephant your way .

Please answer me ..

[tenka]

Dec 7, 2019 12:49:07 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Dec 7, 2019 10:02:33 GMT -5 tenka said:

When I asked where has the witness gone when you stop thinking but you feel the sun upon your face ..

You replied no thoughts like that occur ..

So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face .

You seem to think that you can be aware of stuff and not be of a mindful environment that entertains the thought of it .

So let me ask you again in a slightly different way without using the words thinking or thought and say where is the witness when you are aware of the sun burning your face ..

I will say that if there is awareness of the sun as a sense of the mind-body then the witness is present .

There is not the transcendence of mind ..

The absence of thinking doesn’t equate to the absence of the mindful witness .

This is why you move out the way of the elephant because you are more than just aware of the elephant .

If you didn’t have a thought of what being aware of a elephant means, then one wouldn’t move a muscle .

This is why you don’t have to be thinking about the elephant, a thought is suffice . Suffice enough to react accordingly .

You can't be aware of the world and not have a thought of the world .

To pretend otherwise would be a tad silly .

tenka, I may have an example that will clear all this up for you. Take a newborn baby. The only way a newborn can communicate in some sense, and it really isn't even intended as communication, is to cry. I hope you will agree that a newborn baby does not have conceptual thinking. But when baby is hungry, baby cries. Is baby aware it is hungry? Yes, it cries. Does baby say in any way, verbally, to itself, internally, I'm hungry? No. When baby has an uncomfortable sensation at its bottom, wet, cold, mushy, baby cries. Does baby in any sense have a conceptual thought, Oh, f***, stinky diaper again? No, of course not. But baby is aware of wet, cold, mushy bottom. Crying is proof of awareness of.

In the same way, conceptual mirroring thinking is not necessary in experiencing life. Warm Sun on the face, one does not have to have a conceptual thought, sun on the face. Just do it right now, sensing is very easy. Sense your face. You will find tension there you didn't know was there. Thought pops up. Ignore thought, just sense face. You don't even have to think, sense face. Just try this for a few minutes, or as long as it takes. You will eventually have experiential knowledge concerning what people have pointed out to you hundreds of times. Thinking is/can be such a burden. Take a vacation from thinking...

Now, this could take a very long time to experience. Could. You could try for hours and a thought will keep popping up. You could try for hours a day, for days, and thoughts keep popping up. But, eventually, pure awareness can win out over thoughts popping up. It could be put this way. A newborn baby has no-place for conceptual thought, this is not even possible. But, tenka still has open empty awareness "space" ~just in the same manner~ as newborn tenka. You can discover that no-thinking empty "space".

And, not that you need to know, but that not-thinking space is very near and very real. It's your right brain hemisphere. Your right brain ~likes~ images, "thinks" in images. Images which are wordless. But awareness itself, is wordless and image-less. IOW, content-less.

The baby isn't suggesting that not thinking about hunger means that they have transcended mind .

I know you mean well pilgrim, but you are using an example that doesn't fit the theory presented .

Lets just stick with what has been said as given examples ..

You are aware of the sun burning your face ...

Where is the witness? Beyond mind? or not?

To say what you are is intelligence doesn't even fill in the cracks of such a scenario ..

One has to know that in order to sense and feel and be aware of something mindful .. there is a presence of what you are that is mindful .

No good saying there is awareness of mindful things and the intelligence of what you are is present aware of the sunburn .

When you are not truly present your not aware of the sun, you return back to awareness and you immediately experience the suffering of being sun burnt.

To suggest you can be aware and feel the sun burning your face while one has transcended mind is false .

[andrew]

Dec 7, 2019 12:49:07 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Dec 7, 2019 10:02:33 GMT -5 tenka said:

When I asked where has the witness gone when you stop thinking but you feel the sun upon your face ..

You replied no thoughts like that occur ..

So how can you be aware of the sun burning your face without having a thought that the sun is burning your face .

You seem to think that you can be aware of stuff and not be of a mindful environment that entertains the thought of it .

So let me ask you again in a slightly different way without using the words thinking or thought and say where is the witness when you are aware of the sun burning your face ..

I will say that if there is awareness of the sun as a sense of the mind-body then the witness is present .

There is not the transcendence of mind ..

The absence of thinking doesn’t equate to the absence of the mindful witness .

This is why you move out the way of the elephant because you are more than just aware of the elephant .

If you didn’t have a thought of what being aware of a elephant means, then one wouldn’t move a muscle .

This is why you don’t have to be thinking about the elephant, a thought is suffice . Suffice enough to react accordingly .

You can't be aware of the world and not have a thought of the world .

To pretend otherwise would be a tad silly .

tenka, I may have an example that will clear all this up for you. Take a newborn baby. The only way a newborn can communicate in some sense, and it really isn't even intended as communication, is to cry. I hope you will agree that a newborn baby does not have conceptual thinking. But when baby is hungry, baby cries. Is baby aware it is hungry? Yes, it cries. Does baby say in any way, verbally, to itself, internally, I'm hungry? No. When baby has an uncomfortable sensation at its bottom, wet, cold, mushy, baby cries. Does baby in any sense have a conceptual thought, Oh, f***, stinky diaper again? No, of course not. But baby is aware of wet, cold, mushy bottom. Crying is proof of awareness of.

In the same way, conceptual mirroring thinking is not necessary in experiencing life. Warm Sun on the face, one does not have to have a conceptual thought, sun on the face. Just do it right now, sensing is very easy. Sense your face. You will find tension there you didn't know was there. Thought pops up. Ignore thought, just sense face. You don't even have to think, sense face. Just try this for a few minutes, or as long as it takes. You will eventually have experiential knowledge concerning what people have pointed out to you hundreds of times. Thinking is/can be such a burden. Take a vacation from thinking...

Now, this could take a very long time to experience. Could. You could try for hours and a thought will keep popping up. You could try for hours a day, for days, and thoughts keep popping up. But, eventually, pure awareness can win out over thoughts popping up. It could be put this way. A newborn baby has no-place for conceptual thought, this is not even possible. But, tenka still has open empty awareness "space" ~just in the same manner~ as newborn tenka. You can discover that no-thinking empty "space".

And, not that you need to know, but that not-thinking space is very near and very real. It's your right brain hemisphere. Your right brain ~likes~ images, "thinks" in images. Images which are wordless. But awareness itself, is wordless and image-less. IOW, content-less.

but we don't return to the level of consciouness of a baby. As adults, we have developed high creative potential, and so even when we 'thoughtlessly' experience the warmth of a sun, that creative capacity is still active.

[tenka]

Dec 7, 2019 15:14:48 GMT -5 andrew said:

Dec 7, 2019 12:49:07 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

tenka, I may have an example that will clear all this up for you. Take a newborn baby. The only way a newborn can communicate in some sense, and it really isn't even intended as communication, is to cry. I hope you will agree that a newborn baby does not have conceptual thinking. But when baby is hungry, baby cries. Is baby aware it is hungry? Yes, it cries. Does baby say in any way, verbally, to itself, internally, I'm hungry? No. When baby has an uncomfortable sensation at its bottom, wet, cold, mushy, baby cries. Does baby in any sense have a conceptual thought, Oh, f***, stinky diaper again? No, of course not. But baby is aware of wet, cold, mushy bottom. Crying is proof of awareness of.

In the same way, conceptual mirroring thinking is not necessary in experiencing life. Warm Sun on the face, one does not have to have a conceptual thought, sun on the face. Just do it right now, sensing is very easy. Sense your face. You will find tension there you didn't know was there. Thought pops up. Ignore thought, just sense face. You don't even have to think, sense face. Just try this for a few minutes, or as long as it takes. You will eventually have experiential knowledge concerning what people have pointed out to you hundreds of times. Thinking is/can be such a burden. Take a vacation from thinking...

Now, this could take a very long time to experience. Could. You could try for hours and a thought will keep popping up. You could try for hours a day, for days, and thoughts keep popping up. But, eventually, pure awareness can win out over thoughts popping up. It could be put this way. A newborn baby has no-place for conceptual thought, this is not even possible. But, tenka still has open empty awareness "space" ~just in the same manner~ as newborn tenka. You can discover that no-thinking empty "space".

And, not that you need to know, but that not-thinking space is very near and very real. It's your right brain hemisphere. Your right brain ~likes~ images, "thinks" in images. Images which are wordless. But awareness itself, is wordless and image-less. IOW, content-less.

houghtl
but we don't return to the level of consciouness of a baby. As adults, we have developed high creative potential, and so even when we 'thoughtlessly' experience the warmth of a sun, that creative capacity is still active.

For sure, in my eyes the analogy doesn't work, completely different situations butt as said I know the pilgrim mean't well .. butt it is important to stick to the situation at hand here ..

Being aware of something, is the same as having a thought about something . You can't be aware of something while declaring transcendence .

It doesn't matter what one is aware of, but if there is awareness of something there is mindfulness .

I mean wtf has transcended and wtf is aware of something just because there is the suggestion that there isn't thinking going on ..

Intelligence as a suggestion doesn't mean nuffin to me ..

[tenka]

Dec 7, 2019 11:02:58 GMT -5 laughter said:

Dec 7, 2019 9:28:37 GMT -5 zazeniac said:

If you think this is an elephant charging at me, you'll be as Laughy says, a pancake. ZD makes a distinction between thinking, mind only words, images and stories and hearing, tasting, seeing, feeling, touching, smelling. You don't need to think to recognize an elephant, unless you consider instinct, a form of thinking, which is fine. It's just not what ZD is talking about. Hedderman calls it "living in what's not happening." In other words you're painting the house and thinking about your hot date the night before or whether you'll have enough money to pay the taxes or whether you accidentally sent your boss a pic of your naked arse.

Not to imply that you don't know any of this already, but rather, just to throw two more cents into it:

The distinction between thought and action is a thing .. well .. because it is. Now, the potential for complexity in exploring the similarities, differences and relationships between thought and action is beyond huge.

But. There is a very simple bottom-line: action, free of thought, is quite possible.

I would say free of thinking it is quite possible but one requires to know what constitutes a thought . Running around naked not thinking about the consequences of one's actions doesn't equate to transcendence .

It solely means you are running around not thinking about what you are doing, but where there is awareness of the world, there is perception of the world and there is the thought of it .

It's not a headless chicken scenario ..

[andrew]

Dec 7, 2019 15:22:06 GMT -5 tenka said:

Dec 7, 2019 15:14:48 GMT -5 andrew said:

houghtl
but we don't return to the level of consciouness of a baby. As adults, we have developed high creative potential, and so even when we 'thoughtlessly' experience the warmth of a sun, that creative capacity is still active.

For sure, in my eyes the analogy doesn't work, completely different situations butt as said I know the pilgrim mean't well .. butt it is important to stick to the situation at hand here ..

Being aware of something, is the same as having a thought about something . You can't be aware of something while declaring transcendence .

It doesn't matter what one is aware of, but if there is awareness of something there is mindfulness .

I mean wtf has transcended and wtf is aware of something just because there is the suggestion that there isn't thinking going on ..

Intelligence as a suggestion doesn't mean nuffin to me ..

yes agree, though the 'no thought' argument is defining 'thought' differently to you. For you, attention moving goes hand with thought happening, whereas I guess for them, they don't necessarily go hand in hand. Actually, you are a bit similar to gopal in this particular regard....where's the sherry?

[tenka]

Dec 7, 2019 15:32:51 GMT -5 andrew said:

Dec 7, 2019 15:22:06 GMT -5 tenka said:

For sure, in my eyes the analogy doesn't work, completely different situations butt as said I know the pilgrim mean't well .. butt it is important to stick to the situation at hand here ..

Being aware of something, is the same as having a thought about something . You can't be aware of something while declaring transcendence .

It doesn't matter what one is aware of, but if there is awareness of something there is mindfulness .

I mean wtf has transcended and wtf is aware of something just because there is the suggestion that there isn't thinking going on ..

Intelligence as a suggestion doesn't mean nuffin to me ..

yes agree, though the 'no thought' argument is defining 'thought' differently to you. For you, attention moving goes hand with thought happening, whereas I guess for them, they don't necessarily go hand in hand. Actually, you are a bit similar to gopal in this particular regard....where's the sherry?

hehe ..

For sure perhaps, so many things mean different things to peeps .. Perception equates to thought .. For some reason some think (excuse the sun) that there is something present as intelligence that can function of the mind-body while something else has transcended mind ..

It makes no sense to me .

The combination of what we are that is present, the mind-body-soul spirit can't be divided in anyway while being aware of the world reality ..

What is presented by some is that something is present while something isn't ..

It,s like saying the Duracell bunny still bangs the drum when the batteries are removed lol ..

It ain't happening ..

[zendancer]

Dec 7, 2019 15:05:05 GMT -5 tenka said:

Dec 7, 2019 10:32:58 GMT -5 zendancer said:

As Zazeniac correctly explained, there is a difference between mind talk and direct sensory perception. THIS (what we are) is intelligent, and in the form of humans most of what the body does is handled subconsciously and reflective thought is not necessary. We learn to tie our shoes or ride a bicycle when we are young, and no thoughts are necessary for learning those tasks. It's a case of "see and do." The learning is direct. As adults, we don't have to think about tying our shoes or riding a bicycle any more than we did when we were learning those tasks. In fact, most adults are thinking all kinds of other unrelated thoughts while tying their shoes.

By persistently shifting attention away from thoughts, mind talk (reflective thinking) can totally cease. When all mind talk ceases, there remains only awareness, intelligence, and subconscious processing based on past conditioning and learning. IOW, there are two different kinds of knowing--(1) direct knowing or (2) reflective/intellectual/discursive/symbolic/linguistic/imaginative knowing. Zen and Advaita people are primarily interested in "what is" rather than meta-realities ABOUT "what is" created by imagination. Zen refers to a silent mind as "no mind" because reflective thought is either totally absent or substantially absent. In Ramana's case I suspect that reflective thinking was totally absent.

When there is no reflective thinking, there are no verbal mental thoughts ABOUT what's happening. Everything is direct and obvious, and the body functions in total silence. No idea of a witness is present as well as any other idea.

You are barking up the wrong tree here . Let me put it another way, you are aware that a family member is upset .

You don’t have to think about the inns and outs of why they are, you simply are aware that they are .

You cannot transcend mind beyond thought while you are aware that a family member is upset .

Your over doing it here regarding mind talk and direct sensory perception .

You talk about what we are as intelligence, just like other’s speak about what we are being consciousness or awareness .

You can’t be aware of something mindful and not entertain a thought of what one is aware of .

It’s that simple ..

You seem to divide thinking and thought here like you always do ..

Where is the witness when you are aware of the sufferings of another?

If you say, the witness has transcended mind, I am going to send an elephant your way .

Please answer me ..

There is only one thingless thing here, and it is the only thing that is aware. All humans are one-with THAT (whether they realize it or not). As SDP pointed out, a baby sees the world and responds to it without reflective thought. The same is true for any adults who have found the intellect's "off" button. I agree with Tolle's statement, "One of the greatest attainments is freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." I began meditating because of stress caused by incessant thinking, and eventually the body/mind organism became able to remain silently aware of the world without having to think about it. If you have no reference for what's being pointed to, then let's drop the subject or agree to disagree.

[laughter]

Dec 7, 2019 15:28:57 GMT -5 tenka said:

Dec 7, 2019 11:02:58 GMT -5 laughter said:

Not to imply that you don't know any of this already, but rather, just to throw two more cents into it:

The distinction between thought and action is a thing .. well .. because it is. Now, the potential for complexity in exploring the similarities, differences and relationships between thought and action is beyond huge.

But. There is a very simple bottom-line: action, free of thought, is quite possible.

I would say free of thinking it is quite possible but one requires to know what constitutes a thought . Running around naked not thinking about the consequences of one's actions doesn't equate to transcendence .

It solely means you are running around not thinking about what you are doing, but where there is awareness of the world, there is perception of the world and there is the thought of it .

It's not a headless chicken scenario ..

It's like the duck-bunny:



What's helpful is lopez' and other's idea of "conscious" vs. "unconscious". It's possible for thought-free action to be done in crystal clarity, completely conscious, and yet, absolutely free of any self-referential thought or emotion, and as ZD says, with zero internal dialog.

Yes, I acknowledge that "thought-free action" can also evoke the notion of what you allude to with the headless chicken metaphor. It's a headless duckbunny.