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Post by vacant on Dec 5, 2009 8:04:53 GMT -5
LM, I know this is a month old post but Louise & ZD have revived this thread.
Can you please explain what you mean or refer to by “real time”, I cannot understand it at all.
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alpha
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Post by alpha on Dec 5, 2009 10:46:38 GMT -5
ZD, in some of your recent posts you used the "tree" or "_____" as an example of how we should see reality, well last week I went to cut down one of these "_____" as it was growing too close to a roadway, as the chainsaw roared its way through this "____" I was in the "present moment", until it came crashing down on my foot, at that moment I knew it was a "TREE",  but there were a few lessons learnt by this, I was taken out of the "work mode" which I was in for many years, as I now have to rest, also I see a big difference between "involuntary pain" vs "voluntary" which is involved in the spiritual search, for instance, the first night I got no sleep, with trobbing pain, yet the mind was "content" during this time as if it understood, if I was asked to go through this whole night on a voluntary basis, where at any moment I could have stopped the pain,but chose not to, then I think it would be much more difficult, as when one gets an itch on the head,it can turn to agony if not scratched, of course in meditation this stage is passed when the same itch is hardly noticed. All this made me think "wouldent it be great if the search for enlightenment was "involuntary" that way we would be brought through all the pain and suffering and could do nothing about it, and Im beginning to believe that this is the way it actually is... |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 5, 2009 14:01:51 GMT -5
Alpha: Precisely! Might as well relax and go with the flow. It's like when we get involved in an auto wreck. All thinking goes away and everything becomes totally matter of fact. It doesn;t matter where we had planned to go; the future is gone and here we are! In fact, auto wrecks are one of the few experiences that bring us back to reality for a few minutes (or hours).
Chainsawing can do that, too, and your chainsaw story brought back so many funny memories. I could write a book about all of the bizarre things that have happened to me related to chainsawing. The last time I cut down a really big tree (I did it myself because I was afraid someone else might get hurt) I ended up with three police cars, the forestry service, the EPA, and countless other government vehicles lined up down the interstate. Two years ago I introduced myself to some new subdivision neighbors by accidentally setting eighteen acres of woods on fire while clearing a building site. Then there was the time I told an employee to move our company truck because I thought it was too close to a big tree he was going to cut down. He moved the truck, cut the tree, the tree split the wrong direction, hung up on the spur, spun around, and landed directly on the truck that had been moved out of harm's way (mashed it in half). Once, I had cut down some big trees, and a dozer was pushing them across a clearing. I was carrying a big heavy-duty Stihl and walking on the left side of the dozer. I passed an uncut tree and didn't notice that the tops of the trees being pushed had caught on that tree and were bending back farther and farther as the dozer kept moving forward. When finally the crowns sprang past the tree, I never knew what hit me. The dozer operator later told me that he saw me flying through the air end over end about seventy feet. I never felt a thing. It was like a puff of air had blown me across the field. Considering all the jams, kickbacks, trees that fell the wrong way, dead limbs that unexpectedly fell off, etc. its a wonder I'm still here. I love chainsawing, but there's never a dull moment after you fire up a big commercial grade razor-sharp saw! It's a very Zen, living-in-the-moment kind of activity. I hope your foot heals quickly, and thanks again for the memories. LOL.
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alpha
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Post by alpha on Dec 5, 2009 15:28:24 GMT -5
ZD , are you sure you've only lived one life brilliant... |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 5, 2009 17:03:02 GMT -5
Alpha: It has certainly been an interesting ride! As my wife and daughter often tell people, "He's always going a hundred miles an hour even if its in the wrong direction." It's that wrong direction part that always gets me into trouble. LOL.
I have a Zen Master friend who has always had problems with women (Hmmmm, come to think of it, I know two or three Zen Masters who fall into that category). AAR, he told a funny story at a retreat many years ago. He lived in an apartment across a downtown street from the Zen Center where he taught. His students were in the middle of a seven day silent retreat, and he would walk over to the Zen Center to sit with them and conduct interviews, and then he would walk back to his apartment. In the middle of one retreat he and his wife (his second wife--there would be more to follow) got into a huge fight. As he left his apartment to go back to his students, his wife followed him to the door and screamed, "I'm going to come over there and tell them what you're REALLY like." He told us that he was totally panic-stricken because he believed that she was really going to do that.
Your comment reminded me that my wife (my one and only very very special wife) recently threatened to come on this website and write about me under the name of "Zendancer's wife." She occasionally gets mad that I have so much fun writing on this website and doing other similar things that don't earn any money (LOL). Unlike my ZM friend, I was thrilled to hear her say that, because I have no idea what she would write, and it would be absolutely fascinating to find out.
In August I finally summited Long's Peak in Colorado (after twice being turned back by ice and snow in the past), and I sent an account of that trip to a buddy of mine in Chicago. He wrote back and told me that by all rights I should be dead by now. Ha ha; that hasn't been in the script so far (maybe next week). I almost got my buddy and myself killed on Mt. Spaulding in 1967 when I told him that the storm clouds moving in were nothing to worry about. Subsequently, we got trapped in a freak lightning storm and blizzard at 13,800 feet and only survived because a snow plow operator saw our car and kept honking his horn to guide us down--a true epic. Then, there was the stunt in the new 911T Porsche at 115 mph that went wrong, the rocket attacks in Vietnam, the insanely jealous boyfriend who bashed my head with a motorcycle helmet, the Corvette spinout at 90 mph after watching a James Bond movie, chasing cows at Mach One in an F-106 fighter jet in North Dakota 200 feet off the deck, the gang of pickpocketers my young daughter and I encountered in Budapest, the house of ill repute in Singapore with a three-hundred pound unfriendly bouncer, the night (at age eighteen) I decided to park my bicycle and sleep under the summer stars on the border of Switzerland not realizing that the nighttime temperature was going to fall far far beyond what I imagined, the time I stepped onto some unsecured roof beams and ended up on the concrete floor below, etc. Yes, if I had been more careful, I might have some extra lives in reserve, but then I wouldn't have all these great stories to laugh about.
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Post by ventura23 on Dec 5, 2009 17:28:26 GMT -5
Louise: Ask yourself who makes inside and outside? Where is within? Within what? "Within" is a teaching word that can be used to point to the truth, but the truth is not confined to any location. You could just as easily say, "The teacher is without," and you would still be pointing to the truth. If you decided to stare at a tree long enough, you could find the truth there. In one famous dialogue a seeker asked a spiritual master, "Where is the Absolute?" The master asked, "Do you hear the bubbling stream over there?" The seeker said that he did. The master then replied, "There is the place to enter." Many people have been helped by the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, the Buddha, Nisargadatta, J. Krishnamurti, Douglas Harding, and others. Where are those teachers located? Inside or outside? Out of all the people who wake up, probably less than 1% do so spontaneously without a human teacher and without doing any active seeking. Another 2% or 3% may wake up without a human teacher or without reading anything after doing only solitary seeking. ............................................................................................................. In the most uneducated places in the world are those who do not have outer teachers. The spirit of truth is within, it is the spirit that sees all and give us the awareness to know, understand and realize truth about all things, inner or outer. Within is where the spirit resides. God speaks to us in silence.. He has provided us with a body where the spirit resides' Otherwise why would he provide a body that is flesh and blood, that does not eternal? The soul lives forever and that is what God nurtures.. The truth comes from within and makes us aware of what is outside. One makes no sense when he cannot see the difference between the inner or outer. How do the eyes see outer images? from the outside in or the inside out? How did God create man from the outer or inner? You ask who makes inside or inside? God has created man with all organs working together on the inner in perfect harmony. You still cannot see who makes inner and outer? As far as the outer teacher most who follow them end up as intellectuals and miss the mark. There is a teacher on the inner and can be found from all parts of the world, even where there is no education among tribes who seek because their souls are crying out for something higher than themselves. Answer your own question of who makes inner and outer. Outer teachers are fine, they can help people live better lives. But that is not what I merely seek for. Have a nice day Zen Louise |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 5, 2009 21:35:07 GMT -5
Louise: If you stop thinking, ideas like "inside" and "outside" disappear. If you stop thinking, everything (every thing) becomes one. If you stop thinking, tables and chairs cease to exist. If you stop thinking, awareness continues, but what is perceived is beyond comprehension. If you stop thinking, intellectual knowing (ideas, images, and symbols) ceases, but direct knowing continues. If you stop thinking long enough to see what lies beyond thoughts, you will come face to face with your True Self. THAT is what you are searching for, and the sooner you let go of your ideas the sooner you will see it. As Plotinus said to his disciple in 200 AD, "If, for a while, you give up all thinking and willing of self, you will enter that where no creature dwelleth."
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Post by question on Dec 5, 2009 22:08:09 GMT -5
Many spiritual teachers use the inside/outside distinction, what are they referring to? Is it the same as the trivial subjective/objective distinction? They also say "inquire within". Where is this within? I can't find it. When I try to find "outside" perceptions, what I find is still "inside". When I try to find "inside" perceptions, what I find is still "outside". I'm watching tv right now, tonight I will have dreams, but it's still the same show. |
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Post by ventura23 on Dec 5, 2009 23:41:59 GMT -5
Louise: If you stop thinking, ideas like "inside" and "outside" disappear. If you stop thinking, everything (every thing) becomes one. If you stop thinking, tables and chairs cease to exist. If you stop thinking, awareness continues, but what is perceived is beyond comprehension. If you stop thinking, intellectual knowing (ideas, images, and symbols) ceases, but direct knowing continues. If you stop thinking long enough to see what lies beyond thoughts, you will come face to face with your True Self. THAT is what you are searching for, and the sooner you let go of your ideas the sooner you will see it. As Plotinus said to his disciple in 200 AD, "If, for a while, you give up all thinking and willing of self, you will enter that where no creature dwelleth." |
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Post by ventura23 on Dec 5, 2009 23:59:01 GMT -5
hi zd
I don't think ideas about inside or out, I know without a doubt it is a fact.
I don't think about it, I experience it. I have no images or symbols.
Coming face with our fallen self and slowly overcoming it reveals the true self, It's like taking off a mask.
Whether you believe it or not, there is a lower self to overcome before we can receive what lays beneath thoughts, it comes through understanding and realizations from within.
For instance resentment, that one is the biggest, next comes ego, There are many steps to overcome to change years of what our minds have accumulated and brainwashed.
Not study.
Louise
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2009 12:30:20 GMT -5
Louise: Who is going to slowly overcome a fallen self? You? How can an illusory "you" overcome anything? It is like saying, "I am going to overcome me," or "I am going to improve me."
This is not important, but I think you will find that ego comes before resentment. There has to be the illusion of selfhood before there is anyone who can feel resentful.
BTW, do you have a practice of any kind? Silent awareness? Etc? ZD
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Post by ventura23 on Dec 6, 2009 16:33:21 GMT -5
Louise: Who is going to slowly overcome a fallen self? You? How can an illusory "you" overcome anything? It is like saying, "I am going to overcome me," or "I am going to improve me." This is not important, but I think you will find that ego comes before resentment. There has to be the illusion of selfhood before there is anyone who can feel resentful. BTW, do you have a practice of any kind? Silent awareness? Etc? ZD |
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Post by louise on Dec 6, 2009 17:19:51 GMT -5
Hi on this beautiful brisck, sunny day,
If God is doing the work, He says He will tear down the houses we built within ourselves. If we remain still, expecting nothing, not looking for outcomes we will realize how God works in each and every soul to perfection.
He said He will tear down every branch that is not productive, we have many thorns and branches that are to be torn down.
The human cannot do it, so there is no "you or "we" involved when we get out of the say and let God do what He sees needs to be done and He works individually because we all come from different experiences in our lives.
I don't claim to know what came first, resentment or ego, that is learned from books, not inner experiences.
Change takes place all by itself if we get out of the way. (Be still and know") Most people cannot be still long enough to wait on God to make the changes, those who think because they think they know and have no self hood, are being lied to. They think they know, because they think.
This path is one of mystery and if we try to figure it out, that is the sign of a huge ego.
The only thing I practice is to sit quiet at least twenty minuets or so twice a day, allowing thoughts to pass through my mind and not fall into the flowing river of thought, but watch..and learn.
I find that without outer knowledge new revelations come through and new change takes place all by itself. also physical healing)
I am not an intellectual ZD I don't study, I yearn, that is it.
I allow the inner yearning that allows change to take place. It can be painful at time, but, I welcome it.
I don't think we are on the same page and you have already made up your mind with your own ideas. (that you do not see are ideas) I like to communicate but, not get too deep into a debate.
If we have ideas and think it originates from us, we are on the wrong track, that is why I believe the we have to give up all we have learned, be still and allow new thought to enlighten us.
People use the word enlightenment, but, if it comes from the outside
(reading, study,) that is self-hood.
I am totally honest with what I see in myself and the truth does not lie.
there is still an I and a me, I know I have a way to go to call myself totally enlightened. I do notice resentment pop up now and then, I acknowledge it and wait upon God.
Self observation is the way as I see it to overcome "me".
Have a great day
Louise
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2009 20:29:45 GMT -5
Louise: Great post! We are on the same page after all. Your path is 100% in the right direction. Best wishes. ZD
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2009 21:31:55 GMT -5
Question: Don;t get attached to the words "inside" or "outside." They're just pointers that teachers use to steer us away from the consensus trance that most of us inhabit. "To look within" means to leave thoughts behind and become receptive to a more direct way of knowing. Here is a classic experiment that you can try for fun that will illustrate what this is all about:
Sit down in a comfortable chair, relax, and remove all personal volition. Decide that you're not going to make your body do anything. Simply be still and become silently aware. You aren't going to make the body get up or stay seated; you are removing yourself from the equation. What will happen? You don;t know. You have now entered a state of not-knowing (called "agnosia). This experiment will require some patience, but make a vow not to do anything to make anything happen. Eventually, (sometimes it takes thirty minutes and sometimes it takes three hours or more) "your" body will get up out of the chair even though "you" didn't make it happen. Stay highly alert and watch what happens. Don't jump to any imaginary conclusions. Simply contemplate who is controlling what is happening. If it isn't "you," then who is it?
Socrates, Rajneesh, and many other people have performed this experiment. In the case of Socrates and Rajneesh they each walked up to a street corner, stopped, and became still. I can't remember what happened with Rajneesh, but reportedly a huge number of people gathered around Socrates (out of curiosity) after he became motionless, and they sat on the ground around him watching him for many hours before he moved.
A novel by Karl Barth (I've forgotten the name of it) explored this same territory. A guy sits down on a bench in a subway station and discovers that he has no more reason to get up than to stay seated. He becomes paralyzed until a mysterious doctor walks up to him, recognizes his existential paralysis, and demands that he follow him.
To look within is to investigate who we are, where our motivation to do anything comes from, and who is pulling the strings. We operate under the unexamined assumption that we are in control of what our bodies do, but is that true?
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but there were a few lessons learnt by this, I was taken out of the "work mode" which I was in for many years, as I now have to rest, also I see a big difference between "involuntary pain" vs "voluntary" which is involved in the spiritual search, for instance, the first night I got no sleep, with trobbing pain, yet the mind was "content" during this time as if it understood, if I was asked to go through this whole night on a voluntary basis, where at any moment I could have stopped the pain,but chose not to, then I think it would be much more difficult, as when one gets an itch on the head,it can turn to agony if not scratched, of course in meditation this stage is passed when the same itch is hardly noticed.