fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Oct 1, 2009 18:46:01 GMT -5
No Peter I do not find what he has to say to be useful because nothing is directed specifically to me, which is precisely what I need. A recent heartbreak was the most useful thing to happen to me all year. It helped me grow much more than all these comforting words we use on this forum to supposedly help each other out but I think a lot of us are just here to seek approval and be patted on the back and maybe have some sort of following.
I do however find that he is quite advanced but has settled on a ledge somewhere below the peak of the mountain where he may remain trapped for a long time.
It doesn't matter if one is enlightened or not, as long as they are on a level close to yours, they are able to help you climb a little higher by creating friction within you by pointing out truths. If they are spewing out things that are not true, which is mostly unintentional because of some false belief somewhere along the line, then who knows how many they are not only not helping but dragging down with their false truths.
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I do think that a remote guru is extremely helpful. You just have to be open to anything and have a willingness to admit that you may have been wrong and what you thought was true may not be. Example I saw a video of u.g saying "you do not want to be enlightened". And I answered in my head, "yes I do, what's this guy talking about". This bothered me so much until I had an experience which I ran away from like a scared schoolgirl. This is when I realized that it's true " I don't want to be enlightened". I want permanent happiness not Reality.
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Post by giannis on Oct 1, 2009 19:19:28 GMT -5
Being heart broken is what lead me to this long trip in the first place Fear.
I don't resent it since it has been good fuel for that...
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Post by fears shadow on Oct 1, 2009 21:07:35 GMT -5
then wake up you little woose! (to the sound of cracking whips!!) get down and give 20 omanepadmeums dam it! (more whips!!) hurry up and die! die! DIE! i don't give a crap about your little girlfriend! or you for that matter! it's all BS!! NO, NOT EVEN BS!! NOT NOT BS either!! DIE GODAMMIT! (whips!) what, WTF are you waiting for? sit! SIT DOWN! (beating the little bastard on the back!) shut up and get busy doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! NOTHING I said quit making "your" problems everyone elses! SHUT UP!!! (whips! beatings! more slanders! the big rinzai stick across the chops...ad nauseum) _______ couldn't resist  |
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Post by Peter on Oct 2, 2009 9:08:49 GMT -5
No Peter I do not find what he has to say to be useful because nothing is directed specifically to me, which is precisely what I need.
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I do however find that he is quite advanced but has settled on a ledge somewhere below the peak of the mountain where he may remain trapped for a long time. You sound like you're kicking out a bit, Fear. On the one hand, you're not getting what you want. On the other hand, you think Zendancer is resting on his laurels and you're doing him a favour by pointing out that he has more work to do... What's actually bothering you? A recent heartbreak was the most useful thing to happen to me all year. It helped me grow much more than all these comforting words we use on this forum to supposedly help each other out but I think a lot of us are just here to seek approval and be patted on the back and maybe have some sort of following. I'm sorry to hear you had a breakup. Growth can be very painful. I also felt I made big progress (doing some therapy, allowing someone else to "win" and recognising that I'm "needy") after a breakup. At least, it felt like progress to me. Would you prefer that this forum got a little edgier and started saying it How It Is? Perhaps mirror back each other's behaviour? That can be a very helpful exercise, but I think one needs to be quite advanced before it's possible to mirror back to someone without starting a fight. It's also much better (as I see it) if the recipient has ASKED for feedback. As you say, most people are just looking for approval. That's their choice, their free will. I was looking for a quote, possibly it was Jung who said that men will do anything to avoid looking into their souls. I'll pm you about another forum I participate in where people aren't allowed to seek approval and where 'Objective' reality gets mirrored back to them. Personally I find it a very difficult and unpleasant forum to participate in, and while I recognise that it's helpful, it's far from enjoyable. As regards people having a following on this site, I think it is true to say that there is a hierarchy of sorts here as was highlighted recently when Dramos took a few posts to find his level. I've had to deal with that and ask myself the same question that I'll ask you: Is it the hierarchy that you object to, or the fact that you're not at the top of it? I was amused to see one forum member left the board to start his own forum - much easier to be King when you're Admin. Then he started sending out cooking recipes... If they are spewing out things that are not true, which is mostly unintentional because of some false belief somewhere along the line, then who knows how many they are not only not helping but dragging down with their false truths. Well they'd only drag you down if you followed the advice blindly. You said Zendancer was quite advanced, now you're saying he might be dragging you down? Cripes, you're not happy with anything now, are you? The world is full of all sorts of people saying all sorts of things, discernment is required. If you put them sorting out their misconceptions ahead of you sorting out your own, well Matthew 7 applies. This bothered me so much until I had an experience which I ran away from like a scared schoolgirl. This is when I realized that it's true "I don't want to be enlightened". I want permanent happiness not Reality. That's an important question: What's more important, truth or happiness. It's unfortunate that the character of Cypher in The Matrix was so dispicable, because I think he had a very valid philosophical point to make. So you want a 'proper' guru who's going to direct something specifically to you. And yet you'd rather have happiness than reality! I think you might get something out of reading your post back to yourself and summarising what you're asking for. PS And how come Shadow gets to say "bastard" while I can't even type peathingy...dammit, peac0ck?! |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 2, 2009 10:44:23 GMT -5
This thread is cracking me up, but I'm going to try to stop laughing and get serious for a moment. Fear, you poor little baby, my only interest is whether your last line is correct. Are you truly more interested in happiness than Reality? If so, then away with you! The path I write about is a path for warriors, people brave enough to enter the unknown with no protection at all. Some girl broke your heart? How sad. Gedoverit! On this path you have to leave all your lovers behind (you get them back later, but that's another story). It is not a path for the faint of heart. However, there is something you need to know about happiness. It isn't what you think.
If you will look deeply into the issue, you will discover that happiness is not what you really want. Happiness is a byproduct of finding out that you already have what you want. Let me explain. Imagine that God appeared this moment and said to you, "Fear, I'm going to grant your wish and give you whatever heaven or form-of-happiness you can imagine. Just tell me what you want, and I'll give it to you. The only catch is that whatever you wish for is going to continue forever." Whoa! That last line ought to give you a moment of pause. What idea of happiness can stand the test of time? Money? Fame? Power? Endless Playboy bunnies who only love you? LOL. Think about it, because nobody else does. Christians think they want to spend eternity in heaven singing praises to some superhuman father-figure. They're brain dead. Buddhists want to escape the wheel of samsara and go to some place of endless peace. Ignoramuses. Muslim men want their 72 virgins. Idiotic macho robots! This is what you get from people who live totally in their heads.
Let me tell you what you would REALLY want, if you fully understood the issue. You would want exactly what you have right this moment, heartbreak and all. And if you could get out of your head for a moment, you would understand why. A golfer might think that playing golf for eternity would be great, but after a year of endless golf, I suspect that even the most fanatical golfer would get a bit bored. Two years and they'd be pulling their hair out. The same is true for anything else you can imagine. Fortunately, God is not limited by human imagination, and He/She/It gave us the gift of Reality. The second great gift He/She/It gave us is the capability of discovering Reality by learning how to transcend the intellect. When we humans learn how to not-know, we enter a world that is not-knowable, a world that is mysterious and exciting, a world that changes every second, and a world of unimaginable poignance and beauty. Five minutes from now a terrorist may bomb the building you are in, you may hit the jackpot at a casino, the gasline to your water heater may blow up, you may fall in love with a woman you see for the first time, an earthquake may shatter everything in sight, you may discover a bag of money on the street, your best friend may die in an auto accident, you may win a competition, or a doctor may tell you that you only have three months to live. Reality will never bore you; it will keep you on the edge of your seat for eternity. It is like the most incredible movie ever made, and you're in it! What will happen five minutes from now? Next week? Next year? Who cares? Who would want to waste time thinking about the future if they fully appreciated what's happening here and now? Little children live in the real world, and that is why they jump out of bed each day; they're excited by life and interested to find out what will happen next. That is why they can watch a column of ants for an hour, or lie in the grass and enjoy nothing more than watching clouds change shape. (BTW, if you saw the first installment of the PBS series on the National Parks, the John Muir quotes captured some of what I'm writing about here.) To adults who see Reality the clouds are just as interesting as they are to little children.
Think about it, and whenever you're ready to take the next step, stop thinking and spend some time looking and listening. When you realize that thoughts have carried you away (and they will), return to looking and listening. This is one of the fastest paths to Reality.
As someone happily stranded on a mountain ledge (I love the mountains, so that's a great place for me), let me wish you an interesting life. You're already the luckiest guy in the world, and here's hoping that you'll discover this for yourself soon. Cheers.
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 2, 2009 11:05:57 GMT -5
Well, I, personally, have been helped the most by those that were way more spiritually evolved than me, rather than those who were only slightly more evolved than me. Sure, masters might spend the majority of their time helping advanced students, but I hope you are not suggesting that yo yo ma could not give an awesome cello lesson to a sixth grade beginner. And both yo yo ma and the sixth grader are just people. That's the leveling of the playing field. Sure yo yo ma can help a huge range of people, and probably does mostly help advanced. But the whole pedestal thing, as big as the gap may actually be, doesn't really work. This is especially true for Enlightenment, because the more Enlightened one is, the more they can recognize that there is no difference between them and another. ANY other. That doesn't, again, mean it's not fun to help the more advanced. But, in actuality, it's fun to help anyone who is open to more. By that logic, Yo Yo Ma and the sixth grade beginning cellist are peers. Masters of any discipline do not take on beginners but only those at a very high level. It is like this in all areas including the building trades (plumber, electrician) as well as the spiritual gurus. Experience fades and what remains is an intellectual representation. If you are excited by a discovery you may tell your friends and convey that sense of insight and wonder while it is fresh. After a few months, you will only relate an intellectual interpretation of the event. This is why I said that someone who is close to your experience level can relate to you in a fresh manner and convey their experience in a way that penetrates. This forum is, or course, of value to many. What actually penetrates is something that is not deliberately caused. But with so any individuals at so many different places on their spiritual journey, someone is going to benefit. |
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 2, 2009 11:23:41 GMT -5
AAAAAAAAHHHH!!! THE PAIN... HURTS.... SO.... MUCH....!! WHERE does it hurt Fear? WHERE?! TELL ME! If you can't tell me then you might as well be on that ledge, between a rock and a hard place. "Enlightenment is NOT for wussies" - The Yoga Vashishtha (although I am perhaps paraphrasing the quote a bit...)  Your story of how afraid you are and how you don't want Enlightenment is getting old. Maybe you just need to HURT. And being the morbid son of a b*tch I am. I want to hear about it in all it's explicit detail. No Peter I do not find what he has to say to be useful because nothing is directed specifically to me, which is precisely what I need. A recent heartbreak was the most useful thing to happen to me all year. It helped me grow much more than all these comforting words we use on this forum to supposedly help each other out but I think a lot of us are just here to seek approval and be patted on the back and maybe have some sort of following. I do however find that he is quite advanced but has settled on a ledge somewhere below the peak of the mountain where he may remain trapped for a long time. It doesn't matter if one is enlightened or not, as long as they are on a level close to yours, they are able to help you climb a little higher by creating friction within you by pointing out truths. If they are spewing out things that are not true, which is mostly unintentional because of some false belief somewhere along the line, then who knows how many they are not only not helping but dragging down with their false truths. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do think that a remote guru is extremely helpful. You just have to be open to anything and have a willingness to admit that you may have been wrong and what you thought was true may not be. Example I saw a video of u.g saying "you do not want to be enlightened". And I answered in my head, "yes I do, what's this guy talking about". This bothered me so much until I had an experience which I ran away from like a scared schoolgirl. This is when I realized that it's true " I don't want to be enlightened". I want permanent happiness not Reality. |
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Oct 2, 2009 11:29:18 GMT -5
Well, I, personally, have been helped the most by those that were way more spiritually evolved than me, rather than those who were only slightly more evolved than me. Sure, masters might spend the majority of their time helping advanced students, but I hope you are not suggesting that yo yo ma could not give an awesome cello lesson to a sixth grade beginner. And both yo yo ma and the sixth grader are just people. That's the leveling of the playing field. Sure yo yo ma can help a huge range of people, and probably does mostly help advanced. But the whole pedestal thing, as big as the gap may actually be, doesn't really work. This is especially true for Enlightenment, because the more Enlightened one is, the more they can recognize that there is no difference between them and another. ANY other. That doesn't, again, mean it's not fun to help the more advanced. But, in actuality, it's fun to help anyone who is open to more. Thanks for your reply, LM. I do understand where you're coming from and I do not wish argue points. I think my experiences and observations may be atypical. I was never a spiritual seeker in the way most are here, and never had any direct experience with a teacher; my path was very solitary. At most I read a few books. For me the "divine presence" was like an infection; it just would not go away under any circumstances, and it finally consumed me totally. I defer to your better understanding of the social aspects of the spiritual world. Peace, --anon |
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 2, 2009 11:54:18 GMT -5
Christ! Don't assume I know anything more! I'm just providing an alternative perspective. Thanks for your reply, LM. I do understand where you're coming from and I do not wish argue points. I think my experiences and observations may be atypical. I was never a spiritual seeker in the way most are here, and never had any direct experience with a teacher; my path was very solitary. At most I read a few books. For me the "divine presence" was like an infection; it just would not go away under any circumstances, and it finally consumed me totally. I defer to your better understanding of the social aspects of the spiritual world. Peace, --anon |
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Oct 2, 2009 12:20:40 GMT -5
Christ! Don't assume I know anything more! I'm just providing an alternative perspective. Thanks for your reply, LM. I do understand where you're coming from and I do not wish argue points. I think my experiences and observations may be atypical. I was never a spiritual seeker in the way most are here, and never had any direct experience with a teacher; my path was very solitary. At most I read a few books. For me the "divine presence" was like an infection; it just would not go away under any circumstances, and it finally consumed me totally. I defer to your better understanding of the social aspects of the spiritual world. Peace, --anon It's no fun being an authority and I don't wish it on anyone! The problem with online communication is that almost everything comes across as an intellectual point to be discussed and defended, with an expected outcome of right and wrong. It's the nature of the beast. |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 2, 2009 13:46:11 GMT -5
Anonji: To change the topic somewhat, when you get a chance, I think a lot of folks on this board would be interested in how and why you started using a focus technique, and what happened as a result of that activity. Having read "The Outsiders" and a lot of postings on your blog, I don't think you can over-emphasize the advice to switch attention from cognition to direct sensory perception.
Several questions arose while reading your material. First, because you did not perceive yourself as a seeker, how did you happen to start using a visual focus technique, or was breath awareness your first focus? Second, how long after focusing on direct sensory experience did it take before you had your first breakthrough event? Third, what happened as a result of that first event and how did it change your understanding? Fourth, did you afterwards continue using the same technique or did you experiment with others? And fifth, as you integrated your breakthrough experiences into your daily life, how long did it take before you became satisfied with your understanding? Your description of this process might prompt someone else to take the same kind of plunge you did (or it may run them off, LOL). If you've already related your story here in the past, then please tell me where it is. I'd like to read it. TIA
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Oct 2, 2009 14:14:54 GMT -5
Anonji: To change the topic somewhat, when you get a chance, I think a lot of folks on this board would be interested in how and why you started using a focus technique, and what happened as a result of that activity. Having read "The Outsiders" and a lot of postings on your blog, I don't think you can over-emphasize the advice to switch attention from cognition to direct sensory perception. Several questions arose while reading your material. First, because you did not perceive yourself as a seeker, how did you happen to start using a visual focus technique, or was breath awareness your first focus? Second, how long after focusing on direct sensory experience did it take before you had your first breakthrough event? Third, what happened as a result of that first event and how did it change your understanding? Fourth, did you afterwards continue using the same technique or did you experiment with others? And fifth, as you integrated your breakthrough experiences into your daily life, how long did it take before you became satisfied with your understanding? Your description of this process might prompt someone else to take the same kind of plunge you did (or it may run them off, LOL). If you've already related your story here in the past, then please tell me where it is. I'd like to read it. TIA I'll start a new thread on your queries as soon as I have a break in the action. I am on a rather intense project that is burning me out. It might be a little while until I respond, but I won't forget. |
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Post by dramos on Oct 3, 2009 7:22:18 GMT -5
**** I think it is true to say that there is a hierarchy of sorts here as was highlighted recently when Dramos took a few posts to find his level.****Peter
HEYYYYY! Looks like you guys have been having to much fun. Peter here is a twist for you, it wasn't to find my level, rather the forums level. We tend to use the words "greater or hierarchy", it doesn't exist. Will you ever hear , who you feel to be a "master", say he is such. No! We are our own "master's". When a "thought" is produced, we automatically create a search into what that "thought" is, we then begin looking up information and things seem to be going on smoothly with this search, when out of no where, "BAM"! You just hit a brick wall, you are stuck because you can't "see" any further. We then search for others who share your same interest of subject, to help "teach" us how to get past this brick wall. The "teacher" already knows how to get past it, he won't tell you, rather he will share his experiences stepping down to the level of your understanding. Helping "you" to look deeper into that "thought", the thought that had been produced "within you".......the brick wall disappears.
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Oct 3, 2009 13:44:06 GMT -5
This is great, instead of boring posts, we're actually doing well. Thanks for rattling my cage and causing a little friction in me. So much better than reading how well I'm doing and how I should soldier on and keep going on the path. It's like when someone is hysterical and it's impossible to speak to them but a nice slap in the face does the trick. This slap is what I need. I've been wasting too much time playing with this and yes LM it's getting tiresome. I keep coming back to the same things, running from my fear. It might just be easier to go through it one of these days because it's so tiring and frustrating to keep running.
Peter don't be sorry about my breakup, I'm not, but I do appreciate the compassion. And nothing is bothering me with zendancer (hard to believe I know) but I wanted to challenge him and see what he's made of. And why not? You can't come on this site and say your enlightened and not expect to be challenged at some point. Had he proven to be an awakened being, I would have dropped to his feet in respect for he would have earned my trust.
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Post by divinity on Oct 3, 2009 16:01:45 GMT -5
Zendancer, Do you think that your path is everyone's path?
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