fear
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Post by fear on Jan 10, 2009 15:38:17 GMT -5
There seems to be a lot of varying opinions about whether there is thought after enlightenment. Some well respected members on this forum feel that there is thought after enlightenment. I happen to disagree. I believe that we, the ego, is only thought. The illusion of ourselves is thought. Thought is all that keeps us from being enlightened.
Even when you don't think you are thinking, you are thinking. Ex if you look at a tree, you don't have to tell yourself that it's a tree and you may not think that you are thinking about it but you are because you already have preconceived notions about the tree, like it's green, has branches, cannot speak, walk, or make decisions. This is all thought, if you looked at a tree and it spoke to you, you would be floored because the tree does not fit into your thought structure. An enlightened being takes every moment as being brand new, no preconceived notions, when he looks at a tree, he is the tree, he has no ideas or thoughts about the tree.
So in my opinion, I think therefore I am not. A little twist on Rene Descartes' famous line.
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Morrie
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"Nothing is me" is the first step. "Everything is me" is the next.
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Post by Morrie on Jan 10, 2009 22:36:09 GMT -5
Fear,
Interesting topic you raise here. I suppose, like a lot of words, the meaning of "thought" can be ambiguous. An enlightened person still knows to look both ways before he crosses the street....what is making him look both ways? Is knowing to look both ways a thought or just a conditioned reaction? I'd be interested to know Lightmystic's take on this also.
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misc
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Post by misc on Jan 11, 2009 0:11:25 GMT -5
from reading into all the great masters, when one is enlightened this is what happens to thought: Thought no longer controls the person or happens without the person choosing to do so. That is all, an enlightened person can think and have thoughts if he wishes to, and the mind is needed sometimes. It is their for a reason, we just use it for the wrong ones.
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 11, 2009 13:16:18 GMT -5
Thanks for your post fear. I love to talk about this stuff and explore it too. It sounds like when you are saying "thought" you are meaning "identification with thought", which definitely fades after Enlightenment it seems. Thoughts themselves ARE the temporal reality. Without that, there is no life, there is no existence, there is no function. It's true that separateness is simply an appearance, but it DOES appear to some extent in order that there may be a reality to enjoy and play in, even if it's not really separate. Think about a brain-dead person - there is no reality for them. There is no functioning. That is all it is to truly be without thought at all. The mind is a vital function of life, because it IS relativity. That's what your Cosmic mind (i.e. mind of God) IS. It's not the thoughts that cause suffering, it's believing the limiting thoughts to be truly limiting that causes the suffering. Also, look at it this way. If you're extremely emotional in public, you're not really thinking at all about the world, you're just moving through it automatically. There are no thoughts about the separateness of things your dealing with (in fact, the mind is consumed with the feeling of the moment and the outside may not even really be noticed). Yet, there is no bumping into doors, there is walking, etc. etc., without the appearance of any thought or distinctions. Yet these distinctions are automatically being made. Thus, perhaps the best way to say it is that it's realized that all thoughts are automatic, and are ideas and simulations of reality, not in any way limiting reality itself. Hopefully that doesn't sound too abstract, as it wasn't meant to be. The experience certainly isn't. Anyway, do you see what I'm saying? What do you guys think? There seems to be a lot of varying opinions about whether there is thought after enlightenment. Some well respected members on this forum feel that there is thought after enlightenment. I happen to disagree. I believe that we, the ego, is only thought. The illusion of ourselves is thought. Thought is all that keeps us from being enlightened. Even when you don't think you are thinking, you are thinking. Ex if you look at a tree, you don't have to tell yourself that it's a tree and you may not think that you are thinking about it but you are because you already have preconceived notions about the tree, like it's green, has branches, cannot speak, walk, or make decisions. This is all thought, if you looked at a tree and it spoke to you, you would be floored because the tree does not fit into your thought structure. An enlightened being takes every moment as being brand new, no preconceived notions, when he looks at a tree, he is the tree, he has no ideas or thoughts about the tree. So in my opinion, I think therefore I am not. A little twist on Rene Descartes' famous line. |
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Post by Peter on Jan 12, 2009 8:58:17 GMT -5
I think you're spot on LightMystic, and well done becoming 'Staff' by the way - hope you can keep those Chinese Hyperlink postings under control. I can't comment on the Cosmic Mind, but as I understand it, thoughts, physical pain, fear, emotions, desires (?not so sure about this one) all still exist (popping up in response to the environment), but just aren't taken so seriously. There's a letting go of identification / attachment to these things as spiritual progress is made. I was going to say "as consciousness is refined", but on reflection I think it is possible to stay very attached to the material world while mastering the self and that's what we'd call the Dark Side. |
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fear
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Post by fear on Jan 12, 2009 12:51:41 GMT -5
Great points but I don't think it puts this to rest yet.
Not walking into doors lightmystic does not mean that you are not identifying with thought. Have you ever driven home and just did it without conciously thinking about it. You still stopped at red lights and braked and parked the car all while you were thinking about something else entirely. And you can do this over and over without having to be "extremely emotional". I think they call that somatic thinking, but I'm not sure.
Morrie, you mentioned and enlightened being looking both ways before crossing the street. When you are one with everything around you, I'm sure you don't need to think to know that cars are coming. Just because we need to think to cross the street does not mean that this is true for someone enlightened. Adyashati says, " When one’s awareness opens beyond the dream state of egoic consciousness to the infinite no-thing-ness of intuitive awareness". This could replace thought. Intuitive Awareness of crossing the street.
UGK says, "a sudden 'explosion' inside, blasting, as it were, every cell, every nerve and every gland in my body." And with that 'explosion', the illusion that there is continuity of thought, that there is a center, an 'I' linking up the thoughts, was not there anymore. Then thought cannot link up. The linking gets broken, and once it is broken it is finished. Then it is not once that thought explodes; every time a thought arises, it explodes. So, this continuity comes to an end, and thought falls into its natural rhythm.
One more quote from UGK
The after-effects of that ('explosion'), the way the senses are operating now without any co-ordinator or center -- that's all I can say. Another thing: the chemistry has changed -- I can say that because unless that alchemy or change in the whole chemistry takes place, there is no way of freeing this organism from thought, from the continuity of thought. So, since there is no continuity of thought, you can very easily say that something has happened, but what actually has happened? I have no way of experiencing this at all.
I don't know about you guys but nothing I find supports thought after enlightenment.
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 12, 2009 14:24:13 GMT -5
Hi interesting question first I am new here so I like to say hello! Another thing did anyone else notice not one female has replied to this post? Just a observation. Ok to your question if what you are saying is true then only non enlighten ones will be able to read your post or answer you, is that not correct? Not trying to make fun of your question but look a little deeper into this and we find that the word itself enlightenment holds different meanings to different people. I can tell you this what you may think enlightenment to be is most likely not it. Enlightenment is not this super dramatic event that happens and your changed forever, no it is much more simple than this. For myself enlightenment is simply being able to see things without the lens of ego. Let me say that again..to see things without the lens of ego..now of course thought would still be there in this case but the difference is thought is not identified with anything. This is really it..the only difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment is identification. Once one is able to put away the dream of individuality and the separation that goes along with it they are then enlighten. It does not mean at all there life stops they do the same things in life such as waking up in the day, going to work, having a cup of coffee or tea, go to the movies etc etc. After enlightenment nothing changes and everything changes. The being no longer see itself as a being, as being separate the identity is gone. Now the same being has not lost their brain they know that they are still in a 3D world here and do what they need to do to be here but with no sense that they are the doers, no sense that they are anything but nothing even less than that. So yes thought would still be happening or else they would be like a head of cabbage. I am not a guru so it is not easy for me to put into words what my life experiences but this is my experience of my life. In truth everyone is enlighten already because no one is really here. It is just a happening that is happening no right or wrongs, high or low nothing like that because think about it there is no one to do anything it just is. Well that is it for now With love Randyji There seems to be a lot of varying opinions about whether there is thought after enlightenment. Some well respected members on this forum feel that there is thought after enlightenment. I happen to disagree. I believe that we, the ego, is only thought. The illusion of ourselves is thought. Thought is all that keeps us from being enlightened. Even when you don't think you are thinking, you are thinking. Ex if you look at a tree, you don't have to tell yourself that it's a tree and you may not think that you are thinking about it but you are because you already have preconceived notions about the tree, like it's green, has branches, cannot speak, walk, or make decisions. This is all thought, if you looked at a tree and it spoke to you, you would be floored because the tree does not fit into your thought structure. An enlightened being takes every moment as being brand new, no preconceived notions, when he looks at a tree, he is the tree, he has no ideas or thoughts about the tree. So in my opinion, I think therefore I am not. A little twist on Rene Descartes' famous line. |
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 12, 2009 15:06:10 GMT -5
Thanks Peter. You don't want the Chinese hyperlinks? Not even the escort services? Alright. Fine. But I think you're missing out...  I think you're spot on LightMystic, and well done becoming 'Staff' by the way - hope you can keep those Chinese Hyperlink postings under control. I can't comment on the Cosmic Mind, but as I understand it, thoughts, physical pain, fear, emotions, desires (?not so sure about this one) all still exist (popping up in response to the environment), but just aren't taken so seriously. There's a letting go of identification / attachment to these things as spiritual progress is made. I was going to say "as consciousness is refined", but on reflection I think it is possible to stay very attached to the material world while mastering the self and that's what we'd call the Dark Side. |
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 12, 2009 15:16:47 GMT -5
Greetings Fear. Thank you for your response.
"Not walking into doors lightmystic does not mean that you are not identifying with thought. Have you ever driven home and just did it without conciously thinking about it. You still stopped at red lights and braked and parked the car all while you were thinking about something else entirely. And you can do this over and over without having to be "extremely emotional". I think they call that somatic thinking, but I'm not sure."Right, that's another good example. The point being that there is some thinking going on still, as a brain dead person would not be able to do that. So you are clearly not talking about all thought. Perhaps you are talking only about conscious thought? Morrie, you mentioned and enlightened being looking both ways before crossing the street. When you are one with everything around you, I'm sure you don't need to think to know that cars are coming. Just because we need to think to cross the street does not mean that this is true for someone enlightened. Adyashati says, " When one’s awareness opens beyond the dream state of egoic consciousness to the infinite no-thing-ness of intuitive awareness". This could replace thought. Intuitive Awareness of crossing the street. While I certainly relate to what Adya said, I don't find that to be the automaton way of operating that you are talking about. Of course, there is some sense in which we are all puppets of the infinite, but that is already true, Enlightened or not. Enlightenment just means knowing you are the infinite, so one can safely realize that they have always been a puppet and not try to prevent life or get in it's way of perfectly arranging things for you... UGK says, "a sudden 'explosion' inside, blasting, as it were, every cell, every nerve and every gland in my body." And with that 'explosion', the illusion that there is continuity of thought, that there is a center, an 'I' linking up the thoughts, was not there anymore. Then thought cannot link up. The linking gets broken, and once it is broken it is finished. Then it is not once that thought explodes; every time a thought arises, it explodes. So, this continuity comes to an end, and thought falls into its natural rhythm. Sure, that is one way it can happen, but it is by no means the only experience or the only valid way of expressing it. UG says it well when he points out that the central "I" is seen to be illusory. Once it's seen, that's it. That's the end of separate existence. However, the thoughts were never centered around the illusory "I", that was just the belief. It was never true. The difference is only that it's seen to never have been true. Nothing changes on the level of thought, except the relationship. This will certainly change the content over time to some extent, but, ultimately, nothing is excluded... Interestingly, I'm finding that once that lack of separate existence was seen for me, there is a revisiting of old patterns that behaved as if they were separate and are relaxing as the old way of functioning is no longer applying any more. This seems to continue over time and get more and more refined. This has been the case for all others that I have talked to with similar experiences, although it's not necessarily useful as a teaching tool. It's also something people don't want to hear, although it's ultimately the greatest blessing. Ultimately, thoughts are just not "connected" with a separate person. No continuity is a good way of saying the same thing. Thoughts, however, never were connected with a separate person, they only appeared to be. So the difference is ultimately only a fundamental recognition. Does that make sense? Great points but I don't think it puts this to rest yet. Morrie, you mentioned and enlightened being looking both ways before crossing the street. When you are one with everything around you, I'm sure you don't need to think to know that cars are coming. Just because we need to think to cross the street does not mean that this is true for someone enlightened. Adyashati says, " When one’s awareness opens beyond the dream state of egoic consciousness to the infinite no-thing-ness of intuitive awareness". This could replace thought. Intuitive Awareness of crossing the street. UGK says, "a sudden 'explosion' inside, blasting, as it were, every cell, every nerve and every gland in my body." And with that 'explosion', the illusion that there is continuity of thought, that there is a center, an 'I' linking up the thoughts, was not there anymore. Then thought cannot link up. The linking gets broken, and once it is broken it is finished. Then it is not once that thought explodes; every time a thought arises, it explodes. So, this continuity comes to an end, and thought falls into its natural rhythm. One more quote from UGK The after-effects of that ('explosion'), the way the senses are operating now without any co-ordinator or center -- that's all I can say. Another thing: the chemistry has changed -- I can say that because unless that alchemy or change in the whole chemistry takes place, there is no way of freeing this organism from thought, from the continuity of thought. So, since there is no continuity of thought, you can very easily say that something has happened, but what actually has happened? I have no way of experiencing this at all. I don't know about you guys but nothing I find supports thought after enlightenment. |
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 12, 2009 15:23:20 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum dwbh1953. Beautiful and clear description if you ask me. That is my experience as well. Our female membership is less active in general as of late for some reason... I would enjoy hearing more about your experience if you'd like to post that. (it would be easier to start a new thread for that, or post in the old "spiritual experience" thread already created). Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "I'm not a guru?" What do you mean by guru? Anyway, I look forward to the opportunity of reading your future posts. Hi interesting question first I am new here so I like to say hello! Another thing did anyone else notice not one female has replied to this post? Just a observation. Ok to your question if what you are saying is true then only non enlighten ones will be able to read your post or answer you, is that not correct? Not trying to make fun of your question but look a little deeper into this and we find that the word itself enlightenment holds different meanings to different people. I can tell you this what you may think enlightenment to be is most likely not it. Enlightenment is not this super dramatic event that happens and your changed forever, no it is much more simple than this. For myself enlightenment is simply being able to see things without the lens of ego. Let me say that again..to see things without the lens of ego..now of course thought would still be there in this case but the difference is thought is not identified with anything. This is really it..the only difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment is identification. Once one is able to put away the dream of individuality and the separation that goes along with it they are then enlighten. It does not mean at all there life stops they do the same things in life such as waking up in the day, going to work, having a cup of coffee or tea, go to the movies etc etc. After enlightenment nothing changes and everything changes. The being no longer see itself as a being, as being separate the identity is gone. Now the same being has not lost their brain they know that they are still in a 3D world here and do what they need to do to be here but with no sense that they are the doers, no sense that they are anything but nothing even less than that. So yes thought would still be happening or else they would be like a head of cabbage. I am not a guru so it is not easy for me to put into words what my life experiences but this is my experience of my life. In truth everyone is enlighten already because no one is really here. It is just a happening that is happening no right or wrongs, high or low nothing like that because think about it there is no one to do anything it just is. Well that is it for now With love Randyji There seems to be a lot of varying opinions about whether there is thought after enlightenment. Some well respected members on this forum feel that there is thought after enlightenment. I happen to disagree. I believe that we, the ego, is only thought. The illusion of ourselves is thought. Thought is all that keeps us from being enlightened. Even when you don't think you are thinking, you are thinking. Ex if you look at a tree, you don't have to tell yourself that it's a tree and you may not think that you are thinking about it but you are because you already have preconceived notions about the tree, like it's green, has branches, cannot speak, walk, or make decisions. This is all thought, if you looked at a tree and it spoke to you, you would be floored because the tree does not fit into your thought structure. An enlightened being takes every moment as being brand new, no preconceived notions, when he looks at a tree, he is the tree, he has no ideas or thoughts about the tree. So in my opinion, I think therefore I am not. A little twist on Rene Descartes' famous line. |
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 12, 2009 15:47:44 GMT -5
Hi lightmystic, all I mean by not being a guru is I do not look at myself as a teacher of anything just one who shares. When I have time I will post more. Normally I do not go into my life experiences but if you wish I will. I have had so many teachers it could fill a book so I will give the short version. Namaste Randy Welcome to the forum dwbh1953. Beautiful and clear description if you ask me. That is my experience as well. Our female membership is less active in general as of late for some reason... I would enjoy hearing more about your experience if you'd like to post that. (it would be easier to start a new thread for that, or post in the old "spiritual experience" thread already created). Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "I'm not a guru?" What do you mean by guru? Anyway, I look forward to the opportunity of reading your future posts. Hi interesting question first I am new here so I like to say hello! Another thing did anyone else notice not one female has replied to this post? Just a observation. Ok to your question if what you are saying is true then only non enlighten ones will be able to read your post or answer you, is that not correct? Not trying to make fun of your question but look a little deeper into this and we find that the word itself enlightenment holds different meanings to different people. I can tell you this what you may think enlightenment to be is most likely not it. Enlightenment is not this super dramatic event that happens and your changed forever, no it is much more simple than this. For myself enlightenment is simply being able to see things without the lens of ego. Let me say that again..to see things without the lens of ego..now of course thought would still be there in this case but the difference is thought is not identified with anything. This is really it..the only difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment is identification. Once one is able to put away the dream of individuality and the separation that goes along with it they are then enlighten. It does not mean at all there life stops they do the same things in life such as waking up in the day, going to work, having a cup of coffee or tea, go to the movies etc etc. After enlightenment nothing changes and everything changes. The being no longer see itself as a being, as being separate the identity is gone. Now the same being has not lost their brain they know that they are still in a 3D world here and do what they need to do to be here but with no sense that they are the doers, no sense that they are anything but nothing even less than that. So yes thought would still be happening or else they would be like a head of cabbage. I am not a guru so it is not easy for me to put into words what my life experiences but this is my experience of my life. In truth everyone is enlighten already because no one is really here. It is just a happening that is happening no right or wrongs, high or low nothing like that because think about it there is no one to do anything it just is. Well that is it for now With love Randyji |
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Morrie
New Member
"Nothing is me" is the first step. "Everything is me" is the next.
Posts: 38
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Post by Morrie on Jan 12, 2009 23:02:34 GMT -5
dwbh, I agree. There seems to be a common misperception that a necessary prerequisite to becoming enlightened is going through some sort of intensely painful spiritual experience that leads to a "breakthrough" to enlightenment. Although there are cases like Tolle where enlightenment does seem to happen in one specific moment, the more common experience for most seems to be a gradual progression toward awakening. Welcome to the forum, I look forward to more of your posts. -Morrie Enlightenment is not this super dramatic event that happens and your changed forever, no it is much more simple than this. For myself enlightenment is simply being able to see things without the lens of ego. [/quote] |
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 13, 2009 11:24:29 GMT -5
dwbh, I agree. There seems to be a common misperception that a necessary prerequisite to becoming enlightened is going through some sort of intensely painful spiritual experience that leads to a "breakthrough" to enlightenment. Although there are cases like Tolle where enlightenment does seem to happen in one specific moment, the more common experience for most seems to be a gradual progression toward awakening. Welcome to the forum, I look forward to more of your posts. -Morrie [/quote][/quote] Hi Morrie nice to meet you also. I wrote you a nice message and then the browser crashed! this is just what happens in life. It is the same with enlightenment. In truth there is nothing that happens not a experience of the way we think of experiences. If I were to call it anything I would say it is a event in which the Oneness, the watcher sees itself as a separate being in a game but those are only words. Oneness is all there is there is no me or you or anything. Of course we think there is but this is the mind part of the game you see. We think we are in a room listening to a speaking talk about Advaita but in truth their is no one there, no room or speaker nothing but this Oneness. You are that but not a separate you, any separation is not it. So as far as waking up well it is not a gradual thing it just is, now what seems to happen a lot is a being wakes up to this Oneness but then goes back into separation to play and a going back and forth happens and then you have some that simply stay in the Oneness. It is so hard to describe in words, the word are food for the mind and the mind hates talks like this. Because it is beyond the mind and one cane never make sense of it through the mind, there are not any techniques to get this or to move closer to this because in the very fact of moving to this the moving in itself is Oneness. Most of the so called Advaita teachers are wrong when they try to teach or show techniques to get this. How very arrogant of them that they think they can get somewhere when they themselves are not really there! To end with for now is this if I were to give any pointers it would be to watch and listen to a fellow Tony Parsons . Of all the people of today speaking about Advaita Tony Parsons is one of the very few that tells it like it is. He simply creates a space for you to wake up or have a glimpse of what enlightenment really is. He also is blacklisted in a way from most of the Advaita community because he is telling them they are wrong to try and teach this and make all this money off something that simply is. You do not have to me a smart person with a refined mind to get this, in truth it will happen with you or not it is that simple. Another teacher of mine puts it like this. All there is, is This—there’s nothing else. Nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become. This is all there is. All there ever was is This. All there ever will be is This. There is nothing else—just This. Nothing mystical. Nothing mundane. Just This. And You are This. Now if you really get what is said above you are there you are enlighten no need for anything else to be done. Bless you Randyji |
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 13, 2009 11:34:16 GMT -5
Hehe, well it is more your current experience that I care about than your teachers. I love to poke this kind of thing and be poked back. Makes from great fun, and more always comes out of it... In terms of just being another person sharing, that is what everyone is. I'm glad that you feel that way, but any one, guru or not, who thinks it is otherwise is missing the point as far as I'm concerned. Hi lightmystic, all I mean by not being a guru is I do not look at myself as a teacher of anything just one who shares. When I have time I will post more. Normally I do not go into my life experiences but if you wish I will. I have had so many teachers it could fill a book so I will give the short version. Namaste Randy Welcome to the forum dwbh1953. Beautiful and clear description if you ask me. That is my experience as well. Our female membership is less active in general as of late for some reason... I would enjoy hearing more about your experience if you'd like to post that. (it would be easier to start a new thread for that, or post in the old "spiritual experience" thread already created). Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "I'm not a guru?" What do you mean by guru? Anyway, I look forward to the opportunity of reading your future posts. |
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 13, 2009 12:20:57 GMT -5
Hi lightmystic, Well we could start a conversation I suppose on the spiritual experience thread then. Randyji Hehe, well it is more your current experience that I care about than your teachers. I love to poke this kind of thing and be poked back. Makes from great fun, and more always comes out of it... In terms of just being another person sharing, that is what everyone is. I'm glad that you feel that way, but any one, guru or not, who thinks it is otherwise is missing the point as far as I'm concerned. Hi lightmystic, all I mean by not being a guru is I do not look at myself as a teacher of anything just one who shares. When I have time I will post more. Normally I do not go into my life experiences but if you wish I will. I have had so many teachers it could fill a book so I will give the short version. Namaste Randy |
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