What is thought? Is it present after enlightenment

[lightmystic]

Yeah, the irony is that one gets higher up in the hierarchy by realizing more and more completely that everyone and everything is infinite, and so realizes more and more completely just how completely there is no hierarchy.

Oct 3, 2009 7:22:18 GMT -5 dramos said:

**** I think it is true to say that there is a hierarchy of sorts here as was highlighted recently when Dramos took a few posts to find his level.****Peter



HEYYYYY! Looks like you guys have been having to much fun. Peter here is a twist for you, it wasn't to find my level, rather the forums level. We tend to use the words "greater or hierarchy", it doesn't exist. Will you ever hear , who you feel to be a "master", say he is such. No! We are our own "master's". When a "thought" is produced, we automatically create a search into what that "thought" is, we then begin looking up information and things seem to be going on smoothly with this search, when out of no where, "BAM"! You just hit a brick wall, you are stuck because you can't "see" any further. We then search for others who share your same interest of subject, to help "teach" us how to get past this brick wall. The "teacher" already knows how to get past it, he won't tell you, rather he will share his experiences stepping down to the level of your understanding. Helping "you" to look deeper into that "thought", the thought that had been produced "within you".......the brick wall disappears.

[divinity]

Is not being attached to one's thoughts the only way to enlightenment? If so, what other ways than Zen has anyone found to this end?

[zendancer]

Divinity: Self inquiry, alone, has done it for some people. Ramana Maharshi advised this approach over all others.

Mantras have reportedly worked for other people. Many years ago I knew a woman who was totally lost in her head and suffering with all kinds of psychological issues. She met a Tibetan lama who told her to recite a particular mantra one hundred-thousand times, after which he said that he would give her a new mantra to recite. I met her three years later, and it was hard to believe she was the same person. I don't know where she was in her number of mantra recitations, but virtually all of her previous problems had disappeared. She was calm and grounded, and she had had many deep insights. She had discovered her true direction, was enjoying helping people, was enjoying her work, and was content with her life. Mantra recitation had clearly worked for her. She wasn't fully awake, but it seemed clear that her mantras were taking her there.

Some people have big wake-up experiences without doing any seeking at all. Hui Neng, who later became the sixth patriarch of Zen, was an illiterate wood cutter. One day he overheard one single line of the Diamond Sutra being recited by a priest, and he woke up.

Sufi dancing and martial arts have led some people to the truth.

Suzanne Segal, as previously mentioned on another thread, was just standing on a street corner waiting for a bus when the Infinite swept through her and carried away her sense of personal selfhood forever.

Wayne Liquorman (what an appropriate name that is considering what happened!) was a total alcoholic. One night, out of the blue, he suddenly realized that he was never going to have another drink. He was shocked into spiritual inquiry because he realized that "he" had had nothing to do with his sudden and complete sobriety. That event propelled him to search for an explanation of how that could have happened. I believe he eventually read a book by Ramesh Balsekar that awakened him to the truth.

An artist once woke up after staring at some trees for several months.

I'll list some more examples of other pathways and experiences later.

[lightmystic]

Well, if non-Enlightenment is firmly and deeply believing on the most fundamental level that we are only a tiny portion of who we are, then it's only by being able to look openly at that fundamental core truth that will really allow us to see it. And these ideas of individuality are so ingrained that it can appear very frightening looking at what would constitute the end of individuality as we know it.

So you could say that non-Enlightenment is only through attachment to thoughts, but only if that's taken to the deepest level. As ZD says, what's going to get a person there really depends only on what is necessary for them, and life takes care of that once the willingness is there. But it requires really being open to whatever, because then life can really lead us in the most direct way.

Not needing deeply to believe that any thought is true is the result of the process, not necessarily the process itself....

Oct 11, 2009 12:45:13 GMT -5 divinity said:

Is not being attached to one's thoughts the only way to enlightenment? If so, what other ways than Zen has anyone found to this end?

[divinity]

Zendancer and Lightmystic... what would you say is evidence of an enlightened human?

[zendancer]

Divinity: There is no objective evidence of enlightenment that you can use like a formula, but in general, people who wake up are relatively unattached to ideas. They cut the legs out from under any students who try to find something solid upon which to stand--constantly pointing them toward the unknown. When they speak, their words are fresh and often surprising. They are remarkably unpredictable, they do not care what other people think about them, and they say things that appear paradoxical. Their lives are unified with what they teach, and they exhibit very little pretense. They generally have a fantastic sense of humor, and they can laugh at themselves. They do not consider themselves special, do not take themselves seriously, and often exhibit deep humility. Their enormous confidence arises from their direct perception of reality and knowing who they are. They do not "need" people to confirm them, and they trust the universe totally.

Finding what ZM Seung Sahn used to call "a keen-eyed Zen Master," is not easy, and Shawn set up this website to help people do that. If a teacher wants sex, money, or followers, it is best to run in the opposite direction. I have personally encountered more than ten Zen Masters, the Dalai Lama, Gangaji, Mahaghosananda, Adyashanti, and numerous advanced students, but I remain skeptical until I see actions that indicate people have transcended selfhood as well as conventional ideas about reality.

When I first met ZM Seung Sahn in person, he did some things that, even though I was a beginner, showed me that he was coming from a totally different place than anyone else I had ever met. I had already had a big experience, so I wasn't interested in being a follower of anyone, but he was a fantastic teacher, and I learned a great deal from his example, his stories, and his direct pointing. When I have time, I'll relate some stories about ZMSS, the Dalai Lama, and others. Cheers.

[endancer1]

Divinity: Here are some more thoughts about finding good teachers:

Use common sense, trust your own intuition, maintain a healthy sense of skepticism, and find out who resonates with you. If well-known teachers visit your area of the country, go check them out. A day spent with Byron Katie in a workshop is a real trip, and her books, Loving What Is, and A Thousand Faces of Joy are great reads.

Some teachers exude a kind of energy field whereas others don't. Gangaji, for example, projects a lot of psychic energy and the Dalai Lama makes people smile and feel good just by walking into a room with them. Adyashanti, by contrast, is low key, but very clear. Adyashanti tends to be gentle with students whereas some teachers, like Richard Rose (who is now dead), are more ruthless or demanding.

Many enlightened people have no interest in teaching. They tend to be introverts and are quite content to live ordinary lives under the radar screen of seekers. I know one fellow who is a musician/performer who is as happy as a clam. He lives alone and never talks about spirituality, but he knows who he is and is very clear. Several months ago someone broke into his home while he was away and stole some extremely valuable instruments. When he came home and discovered the theft, he was utterly unconcerned. Someone asked him about it and he said with total innocence and humility, "It doesn't matter; I don't need anything."

You once stated that no enlightened people would be on a website like this, but that is just another idea to toss on the old scrapheap. There are at least four people (and maybe more) who periodically post messages on this site that have clearly awakened, and whose searches have come to an end. They are always pointing the way home.

What was it that Morpheus said to Neo? You can take the blue pill or you can take the red pill and see where the rabbit hole leads......

Cheers! ZD

[divinity]

All quite interesting thoughts here. Thanks you all for your insights.

[lightmystic]

There are no definitive indicators of Enlightenment or lack of Enlightenment. That said, there are some things that tend to point in that direction many times. Along with what ZD said, I find that one of the best things that point to Enlightenment is when a teachers' descriptions and experience is really poked. Really trying to get to the bottom of what they are talking about. If they really have it and are really being pressed for specific descriptions, then you can often see them referring real time to their own experience and describing that the best the can. When a teacher is speaking from direct experience real time, then that is a good sign, assuming what they are saying seems to make at least SOME sense.

Enlightened people also do not usually encourage dependence on them, but point you back to yourself. They tend to suggest that there are not things "out there" that need to be changed, that need to be done, especially not in terms of pointing towards Enlightenment.

Oct 16, 2009 20:06:21 GMT -5 divinity said:

Zendancer and Lightmystic... what would you say is evidence of an enlightened human?

[divinity]

Thought is the waste product of the organ called the brain.

[lightmystic]

Perhaps, but, without thoughts, there's no separate world at all. So I appreciate thoughts. It's just the putting stock in them that I don't appreciate, because that hurts.

Nov 20, 2009 19:37:11 GMT -5 divinity said:

Thought is the waste product of the organ called the brain.

[ventura23]

Sept 30, 2009 22:43:03 GMT -5 fear said:

Yes zendancer but that's a lot of words, why can't finding the truth be simply finding the truth. An opinion maybe useless but if it offers one a perspective that he or she may have overlooked then isn't that opinion valuable?

Sorry. I posted without a message so I am trying once again.

Dear Fear
the truth is ever present it is nothing to find. Sometimes we don't like the truth and fail to see what we need to see in any moment.
So there is nothing to find, but ourselves.

Louise

[zendancer]

Louise: That's correct; the truth is always present. We talk about finding it, but what we're really doing is discovering what is always here and now. The problem for most of us is that we keep our mind's eye glued to our internal TV screens and mistake the images, ideas, and symbols appearing on the screen for the truth that is directly in front of our physical eyes. This is what we can refer to as "think-seeing." The truth cannot be imagined, but what most of us "see" is an imaginary simulation of the truth--a dead cartoon-like world. The idea "tree" is a cartoon compared to the living truth of what a tree actually is.

Ironically, the idea of "tree" and the reality of ______is at least in the same general ballpark, but the idea "me" and the reality of ________are a trillion light years apart. Lightmystic summed it up well in his above post. Without thoughts there is no separate world; it is putting stock in thoughts that creates all the problems, and the "me" thought is the biggest problem of all.

Today a man walked into my office to pay his monthly rent on a commercial storage unit. This was part of our conversation:

John Doe: Hi ZD, I came by earlier to pay the rent, but you weren't here.
ZD: Hi John. Yes, I had to run uptown on an errand for a few minutes.
JD: You know, I don't know what this world is coming to.
ZD: Really?
JD: Yes, people are treating each other so bad that I think this must be the end times. You know? The Bible talks about times like this.
ZD: Well, you look pretty good today.
JD: I'm not so good, ZD. My heart's not good. I probably won't be around much longer. You know I almost died the last time I was in the hospital. They said that I could go at any time.
ZD: Well, that's true for all of us, but you look pretty good right now. How's your wife?
JD: Not good at all, ZD. I don;t think she can take it much anymore, what with people being so mean to each other. Revelations talks about this, you know? Earthquakes and storms and all. You know?
ZD: Well, I don;t worry much about tomorrow; I just enjoy each day as it is.
JD: (after handing me some money and getting a receipt) This may be the last month I'll need the storage unit. I don;t know, but I may need to move everything to another location. You know?
ZD: That's fine. Just give me a few days notice so that we can let other people know the unit will be available, and tell your wife hello for me.
JD: I don;t know how much longer we can take it. I think the end times will be here soon. People better be ready. The Bible talks about this. You know?

I could continue, but this gives the flavor of it. This fellow repeats this same conversation every month, and I have been hearing it for more than three years. This is one of the sadder cases, but probably 25% of all the people I encounter are this lost in their imaginations and imaginary personal stories. Their entire life is an endless series of cliches and tapeloops. The other 75% of people occasionally come out of their dreamstates, but it is only a matter of degree. To some extent it is a function of age. We see reality 99% of the time when we are children, but probably only 15% of the time by the time we are teenagers, and it typically goes downhill rapidly from there. People over the age of sixty are probably down to about 2% or less.

A few years ago I told the father/son koan to a wide range of different age groups. Children almost always saw the answer. At age twenty, only about 20% saw the answer. At age thirty, about 10% saw it. Over the age of fifty no one saw it. Thoughts can be very sticky. Too bad that no pharmaceutical company has yet come up with a pill that will take away all non-essential thinking. LOL. Valium slows thoughts down and probably takes away 20% of thoughts. I don't know about Lexapro, but it probably takes away 40% of thoughts. What we need is Realitypro, a drug that would stop all thoughts for a few hours. A doctor could prescribe it, and the patient would realize what he/she has been missing since leaving childhood behind. Instant Nirvana! Is anyone from Bristol-Myers listening? This could be a big moneymaker.

[ventura23]

Oct 18, 2009 20:15:03 GMT -5 @endancer1 said:

Divinity:

Here are some more thoughts about finding good teachers

Cheers! ZD

.................................................................................................................
The teacher is within. "be still and know".

[zendancer]

Louise:

Ask yourself who makes inside and outside? Where is within? Within what? "Within" is a teaching word that can be used to point to the truth, but the truth is not confined to any location. You could just as easily say, "The teacher is without," and you would still be pointing to the truth. If you decided to stare at a tree long enough, you could find the truth there. In one famous dialogue a seeker asked a spiritual master, "Where is the Absolute?" The master asked, "Do you hear the bubbling stream over there?" The seeker said that he did. The master then replied, "There is the place to enter."

Many people have been helped by the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, the Buddha, Nisargadatta, J. Krishnamurti, Douglas Harding, and others. Where are those teachers located? Inside or outside?

Out of all the people who wake up, probably less than 1% do so spontaneously without a human teacher and without doing any active seeking.

Another 2% or 3% may wake up without a human teacher or without reading anything after doing only solitary seeking.

The other 96% who wake up do so after reading the words of human teachers or interacting directly with human teachers. This is the reason Shawn set up this website--to help people find teachers who have a good track record.