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Post by divinity on Sept 29, 2009 10:38:04 GMT -5
Do you think that because I still have thoughts I am not as advanced as you are in some way?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 29, 2009 13:44:57 GMT -5
Divinity: There is no "ahead" or "behind" in this, and there is no "you" or "me." In order for someone to be more advanced than someone else there would have to be someone here separate from someone else. The idea is the primary illusion.
I was simply correcting a mis-statement about thoughts--that if we are alive, thoughts must be present. This is not true. If you were interested in suspending thoughts, you could learn to do so. However, I was not saying what you or anyone else "should" do. I was saying that it is possible to look at the world in mental silence, and any long-time meditator can confirm this.
Most people experience an incessant mental chatter in their heads. When they look at a tree, they think the word/idea, "tree." If they are log cutters, they may think about how many board-feet of lumber are in the tree. If they are botanists, they may think about the genus or species of the tree. If they are like most people, they will think about how pretty or ugly the tree is, about whether it is an elm or a sycamore, about whether it is big or little, useful or not useful, etc. With practice, it is possible to look and see what the tree IS in total mental silence. In this case, one will not see the tree as a thing; he/she will see a living dynamic transformational mystery that is beyond words or thoughts.
If we give up the idea that we are Bill or Betty, or a human being, or a spiritual being, or a pattern of energy, or anything else, then what is left? THAT is what these words are pointing to, and THAT is who we all are. Cheers.
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Sept 30, 2009 17:30:55 GMT -5
Zendancer you mention that you once had a conversation with a professor, and told him that no thought is necessary for a human being to jump out of the way of a speeding car because there is no time to think.
The truth of this is that it does take time to think about jumping out of the way. The threat has to be recognized through thought. A baby would not know to jump or crawl out of the way because it has no knowledge of the danger of an incoming car. An adult would see the car, have some very quick thoughts and then jump out of the way.
I've read many accounts of Awakened people's description of thoughtlessness. And I guess we both agree that one can be thoughtless but once the string of thoughts is broken, it can never reattach itself because the ego is thought and when thought dies so does the ego and what is there functions in it's own way. At this point noone is driving the body. There is no operator there. Obviously by reading what you have to say, you are not in this state and thus are not fully Awakened in my opinion, but that's ok, you're allowed to believe whatever you wish, just wanted to give you my opinion because I would want someone to do that for me.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 30, 2009 19:07:42 GMT -5
Ideas, beliefs, and opinions are useless for finding the truth. Direct sensory perception, self inquiry, and non-conceptual awareness are the way. Cheers.
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Sept 30, 2009 22:43:03 GMT -5
Yes zendancer but that's a lot of words, why can't finding the truth be simply finding the truth. An opinion maybe useless but if it offers one a perspective that he or she may have overlooked then isn't that opinion valuable?
My opinion of you not being fully awakened should either cause you to consider it, or not consider it at all because you are sure beyond a shadow of a doubt and my opinion of your state would just bounce back and hit me in the face. It's like me telling a tree that it's not alive, that statement is as effective to the tree as me just not saying it at all. So why would I say that about you, there must be something that doesn't quite convince me. But again if you're sure then I'm the fool.
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Post by fears shadow on Sept 30, 2009 23:18:11 GMT -5
dancer
pointing
fear
looking at finger
dancer dancing
fear fearing
fearing dancer?
fearing nothing?
same same
but seems different
because of your own thoughts
whats there to prove?
let the me go
you will see
whats pointed at
beyond words
and thoughts
whats here to protect?
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Post by Peter on Oct 1, 2009 3:21:12 GMT -5
So why would I say that about you, there must be something that doesn't quite convince me. What does it matter, fear, if he Is or Is Not? The question as I see it is, do you find what he has to say useful? If he is Fully Realised, you still need to do your own work and find your own path. If he's 'only' a little further down the path and as puffed up as a peac0ck, then he's still in a position to be helpful. Maybe you'll be able to pluck out a feather on your way past. And if he's entirely deluded, well then he's in good company  |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 1, 2009 7:42:42 GMT -5
I would humbly offer a million perspectives if it would help, but perspectives only have value in the world of ideas. There is no perspective on truth.
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Oct 1, 2009 10:03:20 GMT -5
Guys and gals, let me offer some advice for whatever it might be worth.
In Western cultures, a realized or enlightened master offers little value for most seekers. Unless you are "sitting at the feet of the master" and interacting everyday, what you will get via the written word are explanations and pleasant stories. All the realized masters speak about their world as they experience it, and that world bears no relation to what you experience. And their idea of getting to that place is to say that it is already here, you only have to remove the veil.
The perennial quest of the seeker is how to get from point A to point B, and a remote guru is not going to help in that regard. This means that you are on your own, and will have to find your own way.
The Western way of navigating the path is to help each other. It is the support group approach to the spiritual life. Richard Rose (of TAT fame) says that only those one level below or above where you're at can communicate effectively to each other. This means that when you relate to someone who is stuck in an area you have gone through, you can help them. And when you meet someone that has worked out issues you are confused about, they can help you. In this manner, we can help each other traverse the spiritual path.
To repeat, the enlightened master cannot help you as a peer - they are too far removed from your daily experience. They can only explain. And explanations are thought-based and will be of less use than you think.
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Post by souley on Oct 1, 2009 11:13:27 GMT -5
Zendancer you mention that you once had a conversation with a professor, and told him that no thought is necessary for a human being to jump out of the way of a speeding car because there is no time to think. The truth of this is that it does take time to think about jumping out of the way. The threat has to be recognized through thought. A baby would not know to jump or crawl out of the way because it has no knowledge of the danger of an incoming car. An adult would see the car, have some very quick thoughts and then jump out of the way. I've read many accounts of Awakened people's description of thoughtlessness. And I guess we both agree that one can be thoughtless but once the string of thoughts is broken, it can never reattach itself because the ego is thought and when thought dies so does the ego and what is there functions in it's own way. At this point noone is driving the body. There is no operator there. Obviously by reading what you have to say, you are not in this state and thus are not fully Awakened in my opinion, but that's ok, you're allowed to believe whatever you wish, just wanted to give you my opinion because I would want someone to do that for me. You do not have to verbalize anything inside your head (my definition of thinking) to jump away from a car. It just is so, I don't understand why you would claim otherwise. You don't think "OMG a car is coming I need to get away" and then jump. No one does that, not even you. Like it is possible to act in that situation without thinking, so it is in most situations. Since animals don't think, they would not be able to act at all according to what you are saying. A baby is simply not developed enough, there are other factors then thought that separates a baby and a grown up.. Or what are you saying? It seems in the next paragraph you're saying that an enlightened individual does not think? |
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alpha
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by alpha on Oct 1, 2009 11:35:38 GMT -5
Fear knocked............God answered...........There was no one there.
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Post by giannis on Oct 1, 2009 13:15:04 GMT -5
Thought is of the same nature as a flower.
It flows out of nothingness and that's its miracle.
I guess that thought would stop in some individuals, in some would not.
It doesn't matter at all.
All I can say is that enlightenment brings "you", not you but ... who knows, "this",
it brings you backwards, back from the mind, and so you can look at thoughts as phenomena rather than "you doing them".
So, they might exist, they might not... it's the same as asking if after enlightnement somebody would pee more or not at all.
There would be pee.
What matters anyway...
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Post by zendancer on Oct 1, 2009 15:43:25 GMT -5
Souley: Precisely!
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Post by lightmystic on Oct 1, 2009 15:51:18 GMT -5
Hey Anonji, Everyone has to find there own way, personal guru or otherwise. As you say, no one can do it for you, and everyone enters the void alone. That said, teachers in the east perform the great value of pointing to what is already there, and I don't see any reason that cannot happen equally in the west. From what I can see, it can surely happen over a forum. Of course it's not quite as easy with a forum, but the feeling IS transmitted underneath the words. I see it be successful all the time, and it has personally helped me as well....I wouldn't be too quick to knock it, although I certainly admit, of course, that it's not going to work unless the person is actively examining their own conceptions anyway. But that is always true to some extent, it just becomes more true when one is on a forum. But I disagree that it cannot be incredibly useful to share experiences over a forum or point each other towards what we are. An Enlightened master IS a peer, because he has been there on that same exact road. That is what most people miss I think.... Guys and gals, let me offer some advice for whatever it might be worth. In Western cultures, a realized or enlightened master offers little value for most seekers. Unless you are "sitting at the feet of the master" and interacting everyday, what you will get via the written word are explanations and pleasant stories. All the realized masters speak about their world as they experience it, and that world bears no relation to what you experience. And their idea of getting to that place is to say that it is already here, you only have to remove the veil. The perennial quest of the seeker is how to get from point A to point B, and a remote guru is not going to help in that regard. This means that you are on your own, and will have to find your own way. The Western way of navigating the path is to help each other. It is the support group approach to the spiritual life. Richard Rose (of TAT fame) says that only those one level below or above where you're at can communicate effectively to each other. This means that when you relate to someone who is stuck in an area you have gone through, you can help them. And when you meet someone that has worked out issues you are confused about, they can help you. In this manner, we can help each other traverse the spiritual path. To repeat, the enlightened master cannot help you as a peer - they are too far removed from your daily experience. They can only explain. And explanations are thought-based and will be of less use than you think. |
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Oct 1, 2009 17:24:40 GMT -5
An Enlightened master IS a peer, because he has been there on that same exact road. That is what most people miss I think.... By that logic, Yo Yo Ma and the sixth grade beginning cellist are peers. Masters of any discipline do not take on beginners but only those at a very high level. It is like this in all areas including the building trades (plumber, electrician) as well as the spiritual gurus. Experience fades and what remains is an intellectual representation. If you are excited by a discovery you may tell your friends and convey that sense of insight and wonder while it is fresh. After a few months, you will only relate an intellectual interpretation of the event. This is why I said that someone who is close to your experience level can relate to you in a fresh manner and convey their experience in a way that penetrates. This forum is, or course, of value to many. What actually penetrates is something that is not deliberately caused. But with so any individuals at so many different places on their spiritual journey, someone is going to benefit. |
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