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Post by oneiopen on Dec 10, 2010 19:36:32 GMT -5
oneiopen- that would be the "seeking itself is a delusional momentum that holds the attention of Awareness" mentioned. so, "STOP (thinking with sticky thoughts)" and/or "Just LOOK" is just telling the arrested attention that it is holding itself in prison by its own idea that there is anything done of its own volition. and that is pretty cool. Zakly. All attention through mind is effort-full, and as I say it's the effort to find an object, however subtle, which by definition is the avoidance of the subject. The withdrawing of attention from going 'outward' through mind is effortless, and is already (objectless) Self awareness. The lazy man's path to Self realization is realizing that all effort is an indicator that something is not being noticed. A crowbar is being used to open a door that isn't locked, and which doesn't actually lead anywhere. Sorry, but I don't agree. Here is what Ramana Maharshi had to say about this: "All the age-long vasanas (mental tendencies) carry the mind outward and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward. For that, effort is necessary for most people. Of course everybody, every book says, 'Summa iru', i.e., 'Be quiet or still'. But it is not easy. That is why all this effort is necessary. Even if we find one who has at once achieved the mauna or supreme state indicated by 'Summa iru' you may take it that the effort necessary has already been finished in a previous life." Ramana is my touchstone for truth and my external teacher. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 10, 2010 19:42:19 GMT -5
The seeking prevents the seeing. I've heard this before. I know a lot of people who aren't spiritual seekers. Most in fact. I doubt any of them are enlightened (maybe though, who knows  ) Are these people seeking something anyway, maybe sub/unconsciously? Yes. Most seeking is for what people think will give them what they think they want--love, money, fame, power, satisfaction, fulfillment, peace, etc. Gangaji often tells people that non-duality is the only thing worth seeking, but that it can't be found as long as it is being sought. LOL. |
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 19:45:38 GMT -5
The seeking prevents the seeing. I've heard this before. I know a lot of people who aren't spiritual seekers. Most in fact. I doubt any of them are enlightened (maybe though, who knows ) Are these people seeking something anyway, maybe sub/unconsciously? Seeking comes automatically with the 'me' concept. The toddler seeks comfort of the mother, approval and begins the process of world domination (MINE!) Hehe. The teenager seeks to clarify the identification, to fit in and to stand apart. The professional may seek success, power, control, recognition, and so on. The spiritual seeker is a continuation of this seeking process that began around age two. Nobody who has not transcended the personal identity knows what it means to not seek anything. The thought of not seeking will probably cause fear to arise, since the seeking is essential to the identification. |
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 20:06:40 GMT -5
Zakly. All attention through mind is effort-full, and as I say it's the effort to find an object, however subtle, which by definition is the avoidance of the subject. The withdrawing of attention from going 'outward' through mind is effortless, and is already (objectless) Self awareness. The lazy man's path to Self realization is realizing that all effort is an indicator that something is not being noticed. A crowbar is being used to open a door that isn't locked, and which doesn't actually lead anywhere. Sorry, but I don't agree. Here is what Ramana Maharshi had to say about this: "All the age-long vasanas (mental tendencies) carry the mind outward and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward. For that, effort is necessary for most people. Of course everybody, every book says, 'Summa iru', i.e., 'Be quiet or still'. But it is not easy. That is why all this effort is necessary. Even if we find one who has at once achieved the mauna or supreme state indicated by 'Summa iru' you may take it that the effort necessary has already been finished in a previous life." Ramana is my touchstone for truth and my external teacher. Yes, I said that all effort is an indicator that something is being missed. That's what Ramana is saying. Effort is often needed in order to notice that the outward focus needs to be turned inward, but the outward effort does not cause the inward turning, it exhausts itself and brings clarity as to the futility of this focus. Much work can be done without the effort if there is the willingness to notice. |
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Post by oneiopen on Dec 10, 2010 20:46:27 GMT -5
"Much work can be done without the effort if there is the willingness to notice."
The willingness to notice is the result of the very effort of which Ramana speaks. That is, it requires effort to achieve effortlessness, and that is Ramana's point.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 10, 2010 21:32:24 GMT -5
"Much work can be done without the effort if there is the willingness to notice." The willingness to notice is the result of the very effort of which Ramana speaks. That is, it requires effort to achieve effortlessness, and that is Ramana's point. Ummmm, I would suggest questioning the entire idea of "effort" in this context or any other context. If someone says, "I made an effort to do x," is that really true? Is not this idea rather tautological, if nothing else? I mean, if I do something, is there EVER any effort involved? IOW, is there any difference in saying "x happened" versus "I made an effort to do x"? It's okay to think that effort is involved in performing some action, but if we look at what is actually happening, I would suggest that the truth is somewhat simpler and far emptier. |
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Post by oneiopen on Dec 10, 2010 22:08:11 GMT -5
Isn't it a question of perspective? From an enlightened perspective there is no effort, nothing to be done, no one to do anything. That is understood intellectually. But from one who is still down in the trenches, it appears that it takes a lot of willingness to remember to turn inward. to be still, to just be.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 10, 2010 22:39:24 GMT -5
oneiopen-
see? you are pointing at it too.
good. i was wondering, are you here to condone effort, to masquerade as a ramana devotee, or to get to the core of the matter? not being pushy (ok, mayb a little), but was just thinking of a sincere question.
ramana baba also mentioned about a million times something about Self. you could see it in his eyes, he was HERE and talking to you about why "you(s)" are not here sharing the same presence.
so, what is thinking "you" are doing any of this effort?
the thinking you are doing is centered on (attached to) a thought structure of "you", the character "spiritual oneiopen". therefore, the thinking is only perceived (from the thought structure) as a necessary effort, otherwise no existence. scary for spiritual oneiopen, because the attention is still on the "me" which must "do something to achieve something" (i.e., in order to exist). the effort you are discussing is needed to keep this illusion alive. the effortlessness is all of this happening.
so, what is the source of this effort of thinking you are doing that is centered on (attached to) and presently adding to a thought structure of "you"? and, what does oneiopen actually desire through this effort?
you will say you understand all of this, as you have, but if so, you would not "disagree". what disagrees?
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Post by monkkey on Dec 10, 2010 22:57:58 GMT -5
Admittedly! Otherwise there would not be a message board with characters discussing things like “attention turning toward itself” and all the rest! FREAKS! hehe It reminds me of the analogy of the greatest hide-and-seek game ever played, in progress. As I continue to tell the characters the object of the game, they look at me like I am crazy, and that there is no way that can be true.  As the game proceeds, and if they get closer to the truth, they have that look on their faces like, am "I" going crazy.  Then there is that wonderful look on the children's faces and the laughter when they find out that we are actually all crazy!  haha And then, there is this interest that continues. ;D |
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 23:22:32 GMT -5
"Much work can be done without the effort if there is the willingness to notice." The willingness to notice is the result of the very effort of which Ramana speaks. That is, it requires effort to achieve effortlessness, and that is Ramana's point. It would be a trap to assume the effort is required. What is required is clarity, and perhaps effort happens, but clarity could happen too. Maybe there isn't the willingness to take the bus to work because you prefer to flap your arms and fly. You COULD climb on your roof and give it a go, and the failure would produce the willingness to take the bus, but the effort simply provided you with the insight that you can't fly, and this could have potentially been realized without the effort. |
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Post by Portto on Dec 11, 2010 11:58:16 GMT -5
Yup, from the concession stands at the spiritual circus. Hehe. That's why I like to stay as close to the core of the matter as possible, which doesn't mean over simplifying the apparent process. IT IS simple, but mind is not.  All children love going to the circus. Mind is an appearance in the process of perceiving. And yes, what a maze this mind is... |
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) Are these people seeking something anyway, maybe sub/unconsciously?
As the game proceeds, and if they get closer to the truth, they have that look on their faces like, am "I" going crazy. 
Then there is that wonderful look on the children's faces and the laughter when they find out that we are actually all crazy! 
haha And then, there is this interest that continues. ;D
All children love going to the circus.