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Post by teetown on Dec 9, 2010 18:14:44 GMT -5
So it is impossible to "want" enlightenment?
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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2010 19:52:39 GMT -5
So it is impossible to "want" enlightenment? I would say it's not possible to want what enlightenment actually is. Truth actually denies the want, and the want denies the Truth. The latter may be a clue as to why the realization tends to occur when the seeking (wanting) stops. The seeking itself is a delusional momentum that holds the attention of Awareness, and in this way seems to obscure the obvious. As such, it's not necessary to want what enlightenment is, but only to cease wanting what it is not. Attention then naturally falls back on itself as attention is no longer exclusively pulled outward. There's no reason or purpose to attention being turned toward itself, and so it is not driven by desire in the absence of an outward focus. (The outward focus always contains desire, and this desire may include turning inward, but this is always the object (mind) looking for another object, which it hopes is the subject. No subject is found, of course.) Rather, it seems that attention rests in itself naturally when it is not being pulled outward, which is what happens in deep sleep. Self attention (Self Awareness) is the effortlessness of being. Only the outward focus of attention requires effort.
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Post by oneiopen on Dec 9, 2010 21:47:16 GMT -5
Very helpful, enigma---many thanks. However, it does seem as if Self-attention takes a lot of effort, at least in the beginning.
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Post by question on Dec 9, 2010 23:07:20 GMT -5
Q- if i came across silly and pushy, just know it was tongue in cheek attempt to toss up that fullfilment thingy, whatever its outcome. you seem like a very sincere character, and i truly appreciate that. as for what all this non-dual stuff is pointing to, let's just see what happens. honestly, i have never found any rhyme or reason to it. Oh no, it's perfectly fine. Don't mind my feelings, lol. The troubling part is that when I was reading your post, I didn't feel a thing. It's not just you, even when I listen to the most destructive guy like UG, or the sweetest guy like Mooji, they don't even seem to scratch my surface. It's like there is nothing in me that feels adressed when hearing their talks.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 9, 2010 23:20:43 GMT -5
oneiopen-
that would be the "seeking itself is a delusional momentum that holds the attention of Awareness" mentioned.
so, "STOP (thinking with sticky thoughts)" and/or "Just LOOK" is just telling the arrested attention that it is holding itself in prison by its own idea that there is anything done of its own volition. and that is pretty cool.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 10, 2010 0:05:23 GMT -5
Q-
see? i just love when you write stuff like this!
in essence you are pointing to the fact that there is nothing in a you that does not exist, yet existence is. wow.
it is like there is a recognition of it somehow, but it is still unconscious. looking is happening, but there is that "delusional momentum" (like that one!) arresting and imprisoning the attention that has never just stopped. nor has the turning on itself being mentioned happened. so seeking continues, though it does not have to and does not not have to. it just does. again, wow.
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 0:16:58 GMT -5
oneiopen- that would be the "seeking itself is a delusional momentum that holds the attention of Awareness" mentioned. so, "STOP (thinking with sticky thoughts)" and/or "Just LOOK" is just telling the arrested attention that it is holding itself in prison by its own idea that there is anything done of its own volition. and that is pretty cool. Zakly. All attention through mind is effort-full, and as I say it's the effort to find an object, however subtle, which by definition is the avoidance of the subject. The withdrawing of attention from going 'outward' through mind is effortless, and is already (objectless) Self awareness. The lazy man's path to Self realization is realizing that all effort is an indicator that something is not being noticed. A crowbar is being used to open a door that isn't locked, and which doesn't actually lead anywhere.
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 0:45:23 GMT -5
Q- see? i just love when you write stuff like this! in essence you are pointing to the fact that there is nothing in a you that does not exist, yet existence is. wow. it is like there is a recognition of it somehow, but it is still unconscious. looking is happening, but there is that "delusional momentum" (like that one!) arresting and imprisoning the attention that has never just stopped. nor has the turning on itself being mentioned happened. so seeking continues, though it does not have to and does not not have to. it just does. again, wow. Maybe we can admit that there is an interest in the movement of mind that gives rise to experience. That's why it's happening to begin with, and why thought happens. There's nothing at all wrong with it and should be enjoyable; the power of feeling, the tension in the polarities and the drama and excitement of the movement between them. But when there is identification with one of the objects moving, then suffering becomes a possibility. There isn't really a way to remove the interest, though suffering often nullifies it, but the interest in the movement of life isn't really the problem, it's the self interest.
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 0:50:29 GMT -5
Just got this in the mail:
"You don't see the inner Guru because you look somewhere else. Stop looking and It will reveal itself without your effort. Just stop the mind from chasing all its loves and enjoyments."
- Papaji
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 0:52:46 GMT -5
Just got this in the mail too:
"The spontaneous abandonment of purposeful intention is the only way by which enlightenment can happen. Without intention there is no will, no 'me' and no egocentric effort, but only the natural, noumenal ACTION of living."
Ramesh
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Post by zendancer on Dec 10, 2010 11:12:04 GMT -5
Just got this in the mail too: "The spontaneous abandonment of purposeful intention is the only way by which enlightenment can happen. Without intention there is no will, no 'me' and no egocentric effort, but only the natural, noumenal ACTION of living." Ramesh Nice quote! Yes, that's what we're all pointing to. If we totally get into life and "just do it," putting attention upon the actual, whether washing dishes or mountain-climbing, selfhood is left behind because intellectual reflection ceases. In this emptiness of "what is" the actor disappears into the action, and in that disappearance the intelligence of Source may spontaneously wake up to the truth of Itself. There is a very funny story, perhaps apochryphal, about Gurdjieff's interaction with a highly intellectual seeker. Recognizing how lost in the head the seeker was, he told the seeker to get a shovel and start digging a deep trench across a big field. He told him to totally pay attention to what he was doing. The guy asked, "What is the point of doing this?" G. replied, "You would not be able to understand the point even if I explained it to you, so just do it." The guy looked perplexed, but he got a shovel and started digging. Twice he came back to G. with more questions, but each time G. told him to stop thinking and become one-with the digging. The third time the guy came back with a question, G. said, "I can see that I was wrong to tell you to use a shovel for this task. Go get a spoon!" I love that story.
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 12:11:23 GMT -5
And somewhere there's a skeleton in a trench holding onto a shovel. Hehe. Part of the point in this thread is that desire will lead, and clarity will follow. While the clarity cannot fulfill the the desire, it may dissolve it.
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Post by Portto on Dec 10, 2010 15:50:51 GMT -5
Part of the point in this thread is that desire will lead, and clarity will follow. While the clarity cannot fulfill the the desire, it may dissolve it. Another point that I see in this thread is that we are hungry for truth, but we are eating imaginary food and that gives very little satisfaction.
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Post by enigma on Dec 10, 2010 16:56:17 GMT -5
Part of the point in this thread is that desire will lead, and clarity will follow. While the clarity cannot fulfill the the desire, it may dissolve it. Another point that I see in this thread is that we are hungry for truth, but we are eating imaginary food and that gives very little satisfaction. Yup, from the concession stands at the spiritual circus. Hehe. That's why I like to stay as close to the core of the matter as possible, which doesn't mean over simplifying the apparent process. IT IS simple, but mind is not.
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Post by teetown on Dec 10, 2010 19:26:33 GMT -5
The seeking prevents the seeing. I've heard this before. I know a lot of people who aren't spiritual seekers. Most in fact. I doubt any of them are enlightened (maybe though, who knows ) Are these people seeking something anyway, maybe sub/unconsciously?
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