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Post by m on Dec 8, 2010 8:18:06 GMT -5
My question is for him, not for me. I know who he is as well as I know who I am. m m: You already know who Monkkey is! It is what is asking the question, "Monkkey, who are you?" LOL.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 8, 2010 8:28:13 GMT -5
could you mean "what"? you are not trying very hard.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 8, 2010 9:22:02 GMT -5
enigma-
just saw this:
saaawwy! i was pointing at the wabbit diwemma, but it veewed. can take it elsewhewe.
Question or m- wherever else, if you want.
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Post by m on Dec 8, 2010 9:22:23 GMT -5
I am not trying anything. i am very naive. I thought there were people sending post. Witnessing truth. I may be wrong. May be only ghosts. m could you mean "what"? you are not trying very hard.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 8, 2010 9:35:15 GMT -5
m- oh. thought the questioning on this message board was searching for something not here. your question, "who is saying i don't know"?for day-to-day contextual practicalities, just a mirage is enough. do not cry, monkkey loves you!
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Post by m on Dec 8, 2010 10:36:11 GMT -5
Well, "just a mirage" is just as good as ghost. So, everybody... anybody in here ? ... Truthlesstruth stroke again ? Don't leave me alone ! Come and play! m
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Post by monkkey on Dec 8, 2010 11:00:15 GMT -5
yes, "monkkey" typing, sending posts, and pointing. what's truthless about that?
yes, "m" fearing aloneness, desiring to play, and wanting more. what's truthless about that?
perfect.
no choice.
carry on!
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Post by m on Dec 8, 2010 11:52:54 GMT -5
"No-ego" trap! m yes, "monkkey" typing, sending posts, and pointing. what's truthless about that? yes, "m" fearing aloneness, desiring to play, and wanting more. what's truthless about that? perfect. no choice. carry on!
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Post by peanut on Dec 8, 2010 19:08:29 GMT -5
Enigma, you wrote: "The game didn't end for Burt. He failed. The desire to realize his humanness collapsed in the face of the realization, and the realization never became conscious." Then: "Nobody would be able to notice or articulate it." So then why isn't the realization nothing more than a mental extrapolation? Unnoticable, imposible to articulate or be conscious of. To me this is the same as if it is simply didn't exist. A way for any of it to make sense is if the realization would coincide with the absence of identity, but since identitification never ceases and since even when identification ceases the realization remains unconscious... Or we could say that the collapse of identity, desire/rejection/denial and what other fancy games are going on -- that none of this has anything to do with anything. And that there is no realization (conscious, unconscious or in any other modality) outside of those games. And that every realization is still very much part of those mindgames. Burt is a human who thinks he's a rabbit. He didn't awaken to his human nature because that's not how I wrote the story. Hehe. While there IS a realization to awaken to, I didn't write the story that way because the point of the story is to examine the failure and why it happened, why it must happen even if the realization does occur. The realization CAN occur, but it does not occur as a result of the search, ever. I'm not saying the bunny disappears and so nobody knows realization occurred. It's not like that. If Burt does awaken to his human nature, he'll see that he never left it for a moment, which everybody around him can already see. He'll be fully capable of articulating the whole experience. He might even laugh. E...the line "The realization Can occur, but it does not occur as a result of the search,ever." says it all. Perhaps because realized that truth deeply this summer. For years tried and tried. ie searched and searched and searched..ludicrous...can't find something outside of nothing. Just have to stop.
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Post by enigma on Dec 8, 2010 22:32:18 GMT -5
Cool. This whole Burt/bunny silliness was an attempt to point to that futility in a different way, and didn't work out so well, but it was fun trying.
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Post by question on Dec 8, 2010 23:07:48 GMT -5
Just for the record, what is it that is known unconsciously and never becomes conscious? 1) Burt's realization of his humanness? I'd doubt that, because he will be able to say "I am human" and undoubtedly mean what he's saying. 2) The collapse of the desire/fulfillment structure? If it's 2), why do you bring it up? Why is it significant that the collapse can't become conscious? It's significant because it may be the single obstacle to Self realization. Because the mindstructure unconsciously knows of this circumstance (inability for its colapse to become conscious and for the desire to be consciously fulfilled) and therefore avoids the collapse? Although, I think that in that sense it doesn't know (unconsciously or otherwise), or even care, it's just that the option is simply not available and so the delusional structure simply can't go there, right? The moment when the desire is supposed to be fulfilled within its annihilation, this moment looks to the desire like the cliff/edge/black hole/brick wall with a stop sign and it turns around and instead of jumping off the cliff it turns to another simulacrum of fulfillment. The delusional structure would happily trade itself for the truth, it's just that the true fulfillment looks to the desire like the exact opposite of fulfillment? So it's not so much that the desire is self-aware and has some sort of survival instinct, but that the mechanism of the desire is to find a fulfillment that satisfies the desire. But a fulfillment that the desire can't appreciate (because the moment when the fulfillment can be appreciated, the desire has already collapsed) can't even be considered, imagined or articulated, much less sought after. I hope this makes some sense. It's a very complex, everytime I try to think about this it's like climbing Wittgenstein's ladder.
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Post by enigma on Dec 9, 2010 0:42:10 GMT -5
It's significant because it may be the single obstacle to Self realization. Because the mindstructure unconsciously knows of this circumstance (inability for its colapse to become conscious and for the desire to be consciously fulfilled) and therefore avoids the collapse? Although, I think that in that sense it doesn't know (unconsciously or otherwise), or even care, it's just that the option is simply not available and so the delusional structure simply can't go there, right? The moment when the desire is supposed to be fulfilled within its annihilation, this moment looks to the desire like the cliff/edge/black hole/brick wall with a stop sign and it turns around and instead of jumping off the cliff it turns to another simulacrum of fulfillment. The delusional structure would happily trade itself for the truth, it's just that the true fulfillment looks to the desire like the exact opposite of fulfillment? So it's not so much that the desire is self-aware and has some sort of survival instinct, but that the mechanism of the desire is to find a fulfillment that satisfies the desire. But a fulfillment that the desire can't appreciate (because the moment when the fulfillment can be appreciated, the desire has already collapsed) can't even be considered, imagined or articulated, much less sought after.I hope this makes some sense. It's a very complex, everytime I try to think about this it's like climbing Wittgenstein's ladder. Yes, that's basically what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting the effort into it. The unconscious structure that we're talking about is very simple, which is what I mean by innocent. It isn't complicated by the conscious thought processes and yet it is the raw material for those thought processes. So as you imply, there's no complex thought process about the future. At that level, everything is operating in the present. A desire is present, or not. A fulfillment is present, or not. Fulfillment can't be imagined to be found at the end of some process of sacrifice, which is why unconsciously driven processes of 'habit', like thinking, or drug addictions can be so intractable. There's nothing pre-thought mentating about the potential benefits of not mentating, or about the long term benefits of being drug free. There's just the desire arising now, and perhaps a fulfillment arising now. This is what is brought to conscious awareness now in the form of thought. True that the desire is not self aware, and it's true that it's not trying to survive. What is happening on this unconscious level is your own pre-though. This is what's going on just below the level of your conscious awareness, which directs the attention that feeds your conscious awareness. It is, as you say, a delusional structure, or the desire couldn't even arise, but it is not yet thinking, and it has yet to enter mind's constructed continuity of time. It cannot be reasoned with as it is pre-reason, and cannot be controlled as it is the source material for such thought processes and not the result. The bolded portion above is it exactly. This is why I say that a desire that meets it's fulfillment will have the psychic 'energy' to reach the level of conscious awareness, while a 'fulfillment' that, by it's nature, collapses the desire, loses it's momentum prior to reaching conscious awareness. Essentially, it means that attention is withdrawn from a fulfillment that has lost it's attending desire. To put it simply, there is no value seen in this 'delusional structure' to bring the realization of your true nature to conscious awareness, and yet it is far too obvious to not know. Something 'Awakened' folks often say is something to the effect 'I realized that I always knew', and it's often a mystery as to how folks can remain asleep. To me, it's not a mystery, but it is a wondrous thing.
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Post by peanut on Dec 9, 2010 8:52:02 GMT -5
Thank you Question and E...last 2 posts very clear...
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Post by monkkey on Dec 9, 2010 9:46:50 GMT -5
yes, very clear indeed. quite a talent for clear thinking and words pointing to very subtle phenomena and beyond, the both of you!
Q- if i came across silly and pushy, just know it was tongue in cheek attempt to toss up that fullfilment thingy, whatever its outcome. you seem like a very sincere character, and i truly appreciate that. as for what all this non-dual stuff is pointing to, let's just see what happens. honestly, i have never found any rhyme or reason to it.
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Post by teetown on Dec 9, 2010 13:03:04 GMT -5
Yes good questions by "Question." And Enigma's posts are always grade A stuff.
Reminds me of a Niz quote I read recently:
"Nothing of value can happen to a mind which knows exactly what it wants. For nothing the mind can visualise and want is of much value."
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