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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 1:09:17 GMT -5
Burt has fallen under the delusion that he is a rabbit. His friends don't come around much anymore, the psychiatrist has thrown in the towel, and his family has decided to take matters into their own hands.
All their attempts to explain to Burt that he is really a human resulted in a confused wiggle of the nose. Holding a mirror up to his face, they asked him what he saw, and of course he said "Me!", and hopped away in disgust.
After talking it over amongst themselves, the family decided to meet him where he was and see if they could gently lead him out of his delusion. They told him how wonderful it is to realize your true humanness. The freedom, the joy of riding a bicycle and....shopping.
After weeks of preaching to Burt about the wonders of human realization, he started to get interested in the possibility, and tentatively asked a few questions, the most pointed of which was "Okay, how do I come to realize my human nature?"
They hadn't actually anticipated this question and it presented a bit of a dilemma. Burt's identity as a rabbit is entirely in his imagination, but it's from this identity that the desire to realize his humanness can even arise. The desire, which they had worked so hard to encourage in Burt, is really as imaginary as the identity through which he wants to realize his humanness. Now he's left with two delusions instead of one; the delusion that he is a rabbit, and the delusion that this rabbit can realize it's humanness.
The dilemma is further exacerbated by the fact that the whole plan was destined to fail from the start, since of course Burt's identity as a rabbit cannot possibly succeed and so the best that can be hoped for is a total failure to awaken. In fact, there's now the possibility that Burt may fall under a third delusion; that he is a rabbit who in fact has realized his true human identity. The image of Burt preaching his Awakening to humanness to his fellow rabbits stuck terror in the hearts of the family and they grew quiet.
Saddened and silently, they brought a basket of carrots out to the garden and fed Burt his lunch and stroked his fur.....
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Post by runstill on Dec 5, 2010 2:06:16 GMT -5
That story is kind of how I felt today. I was thinking no matter how aware I was of what I was thinking or feeling. I'm thinking that I'm aware of a thought or feeling its a vicious circle. Now sometimes I can look for the source of the thoughts,feelings and emotion and intuit that nothing is there but something still is looking for the source. I thought well you can't even think about what (is, is-ing ) then it becomes an object or some-thing. I don't know.... I'm f**ked I guess I'll just go eat a carrot '
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 3:50:09 GMT -5
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Post by m on Dec 5, 2010 6:36:57 GMT -5
Enigma: I love the rabbit methafor. perfect. But, well, let me check in.... Awareness of thought is not a thought. Awareness is not conscious nor unconscious..No attention, and no movement either... so where did I blew it ? m
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Post by charliegee on Dec 5, 2010 9:15:50 GMT -5
what's up, Doc? ...
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Post by monkkey on Dec 5, 2010 10:32:36 GMT -5
A similar way of looking at it could be:Awareness as always flowing outward through the body/mind and out, seeing just as it is. Noticing is like a narrowing or focusing of that awareness for varying purposes/intentions. It seems like it can be seen as more aligned with awareness or mind, depending on the seat of identity. It is based on the total experiences of the body/mind, and yes, makes the unconscious conscious. Thought/feeling is the awareness and noticing mixed with memory of the mind. That is, the purity of awareness and attention is “tainted” with past beliefs, opinions, thoughts, judgments, perceptions, etc. Thus, mind can never see the source, because it is deluded (i.e., it dilutes awareness/attention). The mind, limited to memory, can only think in limited contexts, and gives rise to greater identification as “self”. So, in summary, awareness is always outward. a desire to question reality arises in awareness and is noticed. Thinking happens, “hmmm, wtf?” Searching may take place. Hopefully, thinking becomes clearer based on the quality of thingies noticed. Possible curving around continues, though likely still some hang ups on core beliefs and whatnot. The impermanence of these continues to be seen, less falseness is noticed, giving rise to greater oneness with truth/isness (timing varies). The gravity of thought is reduced to a point where awareness notices awareness. Wow. Thought tries to (and may succeed) come back in to direct and order it all, but it is likely to have a rough time. Eventually, a surrender of sorts, and awareness is flowing outward, noticing is more aligned with oneness/truth/isness due to awareness as thoughts understanding the limited nature of thought/feeling as being mind bound. Or something like that anyway. Not sure how that reads. That poor bunny; hope it is not hopping around outside michaelsees’ cabin!
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Post by runstill on Dec 5, 2010 12:03:20 GMT -5
Enigma, m, monkey very helpful and clear posts. My mood is brighter and its stopped raining here, the sun is out I'm off for a little jog. I hope the poor bunny is hiding( till its not), He-he....
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 12:50:11 GMT -5
Enigma: I love the rabbit methafor. perfect. But, well, let me check in.... Awareness of thought is not a thought. Awareness is not conscious nor unconscious..No attention, and no movement either... so where did I blew it ? m Runstill was talking about awareness in the context of being aware of thought. In that context, being aware of a thought is not the same as a thought appearing about a thought, which was my understanding of his circularity dilemma. On the other paw, in the largest context, all the verbal distinctions collapse, and thought is Awareness arising as thought, consciousness is Awareness being conscious, or Awareness in motion.
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 13:00:24 GMT -5
"That poor bunny; hope it is not hopping around outside michaelsees’ cabin!"
HA! The same exact thought occurred to me, I just never got around to integrating it into the story.
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 5, 2010 13:57:23 GMT -5
Monkkey- That poor bunny; hope it is not hopping around outside michaelsees’ cabin!
According to Enigma's story, he'd get a Life Sentence for that. Hope he looks good in stripes. ;D
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lexi
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by lexi on Dec 5, 2010 14:01:03 GMT -5
Enigma- Saddened and silently, they brought a basket of carrots out to the garden and fed Burt his lunch and stroked his fur..... Upon closer inspection, they licked his fur.
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 14:57:14 GMT -5
In case it was missed (HA!), the question is, can one be led out of a delusion from within his delusion?
Typically, the moment of fulfillment of a desire has it's own momentum in that the desire is seen together with it's fulfillment. The desire is dissipated and replaced by the fulfillment. In actuality, the joy is in the absence of the desire rather than the attainment, but mind is motivated only by the desire and never seeks the absence of desire, only the fulfillment of it.
Burt's desire to realize his humanness arises only from within his delusion of rabbitness, and so at the critical point of self realization, what is seen is not a desire together with it's fulfillment, but rather the collapse of desire. The fulfillment, the realization of humanness, does not fulfill a desire, it destroys it. To realize the truth is to simultaneously have no desire to realize the truth.
It might seem that the collapsing of the desire (along with the delusion of the one desiring) would happen simultaneously and so the realization couldn't be avoided, but because of the way the mind works, it doesn't reach the level of conscious awareness at the same time. Conscious awareness can be seen as the tip of the iceburg, and this conscious material originates from less conscious levels, and though these lower levels have yet to be conceptualized, it's this material that ultimately forms our conscious awareness of things such as desire. This is how denial and projection function. We're actually aware of what we want to deny (or we wouldn't be in denial about it). The denial is a blocking of that conscious awareness and projection is a redirection of it, and this occurs unconsciously.
In this case, the realization of Burt's humanness is attended by the collapse of the desire to realize it. They are both present simultaneously, but neither has reached the level of conscious awareness. There is no reason for it to ever do so, since the moment the desire collapses, there is no longer a motivation to be consciously aware of the realization. The 'fuel' that brings it to the surface of conscious awareness is gone.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 5, 2010 15:04:53 GMT -5
Duuno why, but while skiing this morning and thinking about the bunny, I remembered something Zen Master Seung Sahn used to do and say. He would ask a student an existential question, and refute every answer until the student was reduced to answering "I don't know." ZMSS would then clap his hands together, grin, and say, "Wonderful, you are now enlightened, there is nothing left to do."
Of course, I never saw a student able to accept that claim. If anyone had been able to stay in a state of not-knowing, the search might have ended right there and actualized the claim. Invariably the mind couldn't stand to be left out and jumped back in to check on things. "Uh oh. I'm still here, so I can't be enlightened." LOL.
The universe is a very strange thing. It blows itself up in the form of stars, and crashes itself together in the form of galaxies. It frolics in the form of amoebas, bunnies, and human thingies. In the form of humans, it imagines all kinds of things (including alternative universes), and that's where the fun really begins. The universe looks at Itself out of every creature's eyes. In the form of a human baby it looks at Itself and interacts with Itself directly through its body. As the universe grows in the form of a human child, It develops the power of imagination and begins to imaginatively divide what it sees into separate things. Everything it sees is real, but everything it imagines is imaginary. When it looks at what a tree IS, it imagines that it sees a tree. Because its parents lied to it, and told it that it was a human being (because they had been lied to by their parents and didn't know any better), it does not realize that it is always looking at Itself. It gradually begins to spend all of its time imagining and thereby keeps its attention focused 99.9% of the time on ideas, images, and symbols. If it could cease imagining, it would see only Itself, a unified oneness, manifesting "just like this."
The universe loves to eat hamburgers, but most of the time It imagines, in the form of human beings, that It is a particular human being eating a hamburger. If it could just eat the hamburger and not imagine anything, It might realize the truth. If It could eat a hamburger without imagining that It is a human being eating a hamburger, It might wake up to Itself.
At this moment, regardless of what anyone is doing, that is what the universe it doing. Not knowing is the path that leads to the realization, "Oh, I am the universe doing this, and there is no one other than Me, the universe, who could be doing this. I am the alpha and the omega, the one without a second, the unimaginable isness of All."
Look around in silence. Look without knowing. Don't imagine anything. You are looking at "what is." Continue looking at "what is" until "what is" is all there is. Don't try to imagine what is looking at "what is." Sooner or later, "what is" will realize that there is nothing other than "what is" and that all ideas of there being a separate looker were nothing more than ideas. At that point the universe will laugh with delight at the incredible joke that It played on Itself. It will say, "How funny, I mistakenly thought that there was someone other than Me here." The universe may then go eat a hamburger in joy and recognition that This is how It manfests. Ummmmmmm. Tasty!
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Post by m on Dec 5, 2010 16:25:57 GMT -5
Enigma : You said " Runstill was talking about awareness in the context of being aware of thought. In that context, being aware of a thought is not the same as a thought appearing about a thought, which was my understanding of his circularity dilemma."I think, I get what you mean. I was pointing that, for me awareness and consciousness just never meet (like the sky and the clouds) . Awareness is free of any context, thoughts... m Enigma: I love the rabbit methafor. perfect. But, well, let me check in.... Awareness of thought is not a thought. Awareness is not conscious nor unconscious..No attention, and no movement either... so where did I blew it ? m Runstill was talking about awareness in the context of being aware of thought. In that context, being aware of a thought is not the same as a thought appearing about a thought, which was my understanding of his circularity dilemma. On the other paw, in the largest context, all the verbal distinctions collapse, and thought is Awareness arising as thought, consciousness is Awareness being conscious, or Awareness in motion.
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Post by m on Dec 5, 2010 16:31:27 GMT -5
Enigma : you said "In case it was missed (HA!), the question is, can one be led out of a delusion from within his delusion?"
Amma said once: "The guru is like a clock in the dream". That stoke me as true. May be like a hole opening itself in a veil. For,otherwise how could we be deluded from the delusion at all? m
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