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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 20:37:11 GMT -5
Yes, Burt has a problem. He's suffering because Michael is trying to make dinner out of him. I see attempts to make it a non-problem by questioning whether we can know there is a problem, or if we can know if it isn't our problem, or by making Burt an abstraction, but this is the avoidance of the problem. We can avoid it by calling it a non-problem or our problem but suffering goes on in spite of those abstractions. Well, if Burt shows up at my door and Michael is chasing him, I will let Burt in. Cool. Thanks. No, all the ancient Egyptians are dead. Don't worry bout em. Hehe.
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Post by question on Dec 6, 2010 20:45:29 GMT -5
It wouldn't. That's the point. The game didn't end for Burt. He failed. The desire to realize his humanness collapsed in the face of the realization, and the realization never became conscious. If the realization can't ever become conscious, then how can Burt (or anyone else) notice or articulate that the desire collapsed?
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 20:48:20 GMT -5
I wanted to clarify: I hit a wall about two months back where I became disinterested with books, satsangs, talks of teachers and pointers. At around this time I kept thinking to myself...'I want something I can hold on to” and of course nothing came up. I then began to ask “Well now what?” to which I’ve only been able to answer with 'keep coming back to awareness'. There is nothing dramatic or terribly dark about my current experience. Its almost as if I could just stop here and live an improved dream with only subtle tensions BUT I’m well aware that I’ve not gone as deep as I will or hope to. So suffering or angst at this point could fuel the realization? I’m screwed if that’s the case. This past year of seeking has been more about a determination with the understanding that this pursuit is all there is...nothing else matters. So whats going on? I actually thought things were going pretty well until I read this thread lol! I would say that what you've stopped is the horizontal movement along the path, which is cool, but now the question is whether you are actually satisfied there or will a vertical movement happen? So if it's still true that nothing else matters, then maybe so?
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 20:51:10 GMT -5
Awesome thread E..thanks... That which you are seeking is causing you to seek! Miss everybody...working like crazy... Hi Peanut. ;D Right, and so the only possible outcome is the end of the seeking, which is the end of the seeker.
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 20:55:20 GMT -5
It wouldn't. That's the point. The game didn't end for Burt. He failed. The desire to realize his humanness collapsed in the face of the realization, and the realization never became conscious. If the realization can't ever become conscious, then how can Burt (or anyone else) notice or articulate that the desire collapsed? Nobody would be able to notice or articulate it. At this point, lemme suggest that the realization already HAS occurred for everybody. Hehe.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 6, 2010 21:02:55 GMT -5
layer after layer after layer...
consider the weight...
adding: load him up on rabbitness. make him process it and deal with it. make him so aware of the dilemma of rabbitness that he becomes so f'ing sick of rabbitness that he will beg for a way out. if he tries to add another layer of delusion, like he decides to be a peace-loving turtle dove, make sure to point out the futility by pointing out the suffering that will entail, and so on. point out the feeling of pain and suffering of existence, as it is. drive that point home, while waiting for his best question/idea to come up, which, since he is unconscious of the delusion's core belief, will.
subtracting: keep talking about the root of the present delusion of rabbitness. where did it come from? did he agree to the identity of being a rabbit? how has the identity been nurtured? what does it mean to be a rabbit? what constitutes rabbitness. look at other rabbit's to see how they live, and question their existence. see how they operate. look at how those observations relate to the present dilemma of rabbitness. is it necessary? does it work? is rabbitness really a dilemma, or is it an illusion? if it an illusion, why does one think it is real? if the illusion is real, why does one feel pain and suffering? what is this one that feels pain and suffering? explore the nooks and crannies of the experience, waiting for his best question/idea to come up, which, since he is unconscious of the delusion's core belief, will.
in essence: create the desire to see the dilemma of identity as it is. whereas mind, pain and suffering is just happening, identifying with it as something happening to something in particular simply adds to the delusion, divides reality. identifying with it is just something rabbits do to, well, make rabbits(?). that simple bit of delusion of identity continues to multiply like rabbits through adding beliefs, judgments, opinions, perceptions, etc., and there is nothing wrong with that. but doing it unconsciously and not becoming conscious of it creates and maintains weight, which, compared to awareness is really f'ing heavy. the realization is there. aren't you tired of carrying around that bag of rabbitness? it is beginning to smell like a rat anyway.
what if?
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Post by unveilable on Dec 6, 2010 21:29:23 GMT -5
Well there is a backdrop of dissatisfaction so the desiring goes on. But all of this is subtle. There is not dark angst to push me forward but fixed determination. This does not feel like my will driving me forward if that makes any sense. I hate to use such a poetic term but this is more of a calling. My search began in my teens. At that time I became hyper aware of an inescapable emptiness...felt like dying inside and moments that seemed like I was walking on invisible ground. Finding this overwhelming, I ran away for twenty years knowing full well the day would come to finally answer the call. I don't like discussing this publicly but I feel like its important to say because of what Ive learned. THERE IS NO ESCAPE FROM THIS. I have no choice. e: I would say that what you've stopped is the horizontal movement along the path, which is cool, but now the question is whether you are actually satisfied there or will a vertical movement happen? So if it's still true that nothing else matters, then maybe so?
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Post by question on Dec 6, 2010 22:41:06 GMT -5
Enigma, you wrote: "The game didn't end for Burt. He failed. The desire to realize his humanness collapsed in the face of the realization, and the realization never became conscious." Then: "Nobody would be able to notice or articulate it."
So then why isn't the realization nothing more than a mental extrapolation? Unnoticable, imposible to articulate or be conscious of. To me this is the same as if it is simply didn't exist. A way for any of it to make sense is if the realization would coincide with the absence of identity, but since identitification never ceases and since even when identification ceases the realization remains unconscious...
Or we could say that the collapse of identity, desire/rejection/denial and what other fancy games are going on -- that none of this has anything to do with anything. And that there is no realization (conscious, unconscious or in any other modality) outside of those games. And that every realization is still very much part of those mindgames.
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 23:18:27 GMT -5
Enigma, you wrote: "The game didn't end for Burt. He failed. The desire to realize his humanness collapsed in the face of the realization, and the realization never became conscious." Then: "Nobody would be able to notice or articulate it." So then why isn't the realization nothing more than a mental extrapolation? Unnoticable, imposible to articulate or be conscious of. To me this is the same as if it is simply didn't exist. A way for any of it to make sense is if the realization would coincide with the absence of identity, but since identitification never ceases and since even when identification ceases the realization remains unconscious... Or we could say that the collapse of identity, desire/rejection/denial and what other fancy games are going on -- that none of this has anything to do with anything. And that there is no realization (conscious, unconscious or in any other modality) outside of those games. And that every realization is still very much part of those mindgames. Burt is a human who thinks he's a rabbit. He didn't awaken to his human nature because that's not how I wrote the story. Hehe. While there IS a realization to awaken to, I didn't write the story that way because the point of the story is to examine the failure and why it happened, why it must happen even if the realization does occur. The realization CAN occur, but it does not occur as a result of the search, ever. I'm not saying the bunny disappears and so nobody knows realization occurred. It's not like that. If Burt does awaken to his human nature, he'll see that he never left it for a moment, which everybody around him can already see. He'll be fully capable of articulating the whole experience. He might even laugh.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 6, 2010 23:39:20 GMT -5
adding: Yep, this is the "problem" of identifying as Question, thinking about Burt identifying as Burt, identifying as a rabbit. The thought structure holding it all together thinks it is, and therefore the rest of existence is separate, and therefore things in life are happening to it, other rabbits and things conspire, it wants more of the good things and it wants to escape the bad things, even the very simple deep seated question in the mind of the delusion in whether or not it exists can not be answered to any degree of certainty by the mind alone, because the whole foundation is an illusion and, and, and....p i s s e s you off, does it not? You are attaching to the pain and suffering of existence for any millions of REASONS (HA f'in HA!). You are judging "the rest" of existence. You resist the truth before your very cosmic third eyes. Why? That is what is necessary to keep the delusion, the image that you exist as seemingly real as it can be. But, it always falling apart and away.
You could just sit there and be awareness of the whole spectacle. I mean, if you really wanted to. HA!
Carry on.
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Post by Portto on Dec 7, 2010 9:34:37 GMT -5
No, all the ancient Egyptians are dead. Don't worry bout em. Hehe. But their suffering was so real... How can we ignore that? At this point, lemme suggest that the realization already HAS occurred for everybody. Hehe. I have a strong feeling that is the truth...
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Post by question on Dec 7, 2010 10:54:26 GMT -5
Burt is a human who thinks he's a rabbit. He didn't awaken to his human nature because that's not how I wrote the story. Hehe. While there IS a realization to awaken to, I didn't write the story that way because the point of the story is to examine the failure and why it happened, why it must happen even if the realization does occur. The realization CAN occur, but it does not occur as a result of the search, ever. I'm not saying the bunny disappears and so nobody knows realization occurred. It's not like that. If Burt does awaken to his human nature, he'll see that he never left it for a moment, which everybody around him can already see. He'll be fully capable of articulating the whole experience. He might even laugh. Wait a second. Burt assumed rabbitness, because his understanding of humanness was twisted in the first place. And his understanding could not have been non-twisted (because if it weren't then he wouldn't have forsaken it for rabbitness). It's just that his humanness story at some point became so ugly that it was rejected into the unconscious and simultaneously it erected another identity: rabbitness, a cute lovable creature with little intellectual capacity that can do little wrong (he might have identified as a kitten or a puppy or a baby, but kids grow up). That's the game. False identity/assumption, rejection+desire, new false identity and then repeat the process. I'd say that Burt was able to identifiy himself as a rabbit exactly because his version of humanness was twisted in the first place. What it truly is like to be a human was never part of the story, can't be, neither for Burt nor for his relatives who are preaching to him about the advantages of their version of humanness.
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Post by monkkey on Dec 7, 2010 11:40:10 GMT -5
question!
go go GO....over the edge!
you are right there!
what does this all mean about about the dude sitting there right now, reading this forum?
you are right there!
c'mon man.
WTF is all this saying?!
it is pointing!
right here....now....this....no separation.....existence.....no other....just this.....heaven.....nirvana.....WTF ever is right here....out of mind but including mind.....awareness watching all of the rest of you!!
C'MON!!
LET IT ALL GO!!
LET IT ALL IN!!
THERE IS NO OTHER!!
ONE!!
COME OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNN!
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2010 12:49:52 GMT -5
Burt is a human who thinks he's a rabbit. He didn't awaken to his human nature because that's not how I wrote the story. Hehe. While there IS a realization to awaken to, I didn't write the story that way because the point of the story is to examine the failure and why it happened, why it must happen even if the realization does occur. The realization CAN occur, but it does not occur as a result of the search, ever. I'm not saying the bunny disappears and so nobody knows realization occurred. It's not like that. If Burt does awaken to his human nature, he'll see that he never left it for a moment, which everybody around him can already see. He'll be fully capable of articulating the whole experience. He might even laugh. Wait a second. Burt assumed rabbitness, because his understanding of humanness was twisted in the first place. And his understanding could not have been non-twisted (because if it weren't then he wouldn't have forsaken it for rabbitness). It's just that his humanness story at some point became so ugly that it was rejected into the unconscious and simultaneously it erected another identity: rabbitness, a cute lovable creature with little intellectual capacity that can do little wrong (he might have identified as a kitten or a puppy or a baby, but kids grow up). That's the game. False identity/assumption, rejection+desire, new false identity and then repeat the process. I'd say that Burt was able to identifiy himself as a rabbit exactly because his version of humanness was twisted in the first place. What it truly is like to be a human was never part of the story, can't be, neither for Burt nor for his relatives who are preaching to him about the advantages of their version of humanness. We don't know why the delusion happened. Maybe he just loved rabbits and they became an obsession. Lets assume he didn't have an issue with being human, just for the purpose of focusing on the realization process.
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Post by enigma on Dec 7, 2010 14:19:10 GMT -5
It's clear that the mind has the remarkable ability to not see what it doesn't want to see. The evidence can be overwhelming and if there isn't the motivation to notice it, and especially if there is the motivation to not notice it, it simply won't be seen. And yet, it IS seen or we wouldn't know to deny it or ignore the obvious. This is the value of conceptually dividing the mind into conscious and subconscious.
We live on the surface level of our conscious awareness, which is a highly distorted and filtered version of the actual content of our experience and knowledge. We generally assume we make conscious decisions and are able to be at least somewhat objective about the facts, and yet the selection of those 'facts' and the choices themselves are made at unconscious levels and what appears on the surface awareness is the preferred version of the story and only the final verdict of our choices. The choices are not made consciously, only observed consciously.
The life that we actually seem to live is the 'final cut' after deeper levels of mind have done some major editing. Living on the surface level of mind is like watching the movie of your life which you acted and edited, without any recollection of having done any editing. It's not possible to live on some other level of mind, but it's possible to become aware of much of this unconscious editing process, thereby increasing the depth of your conscious awareness.
Burt's first problem is that he's not motivated to look at the reality of his situation and even question it. If he comes to believe he has something to gain by looking, (which usually means some suffering to avoid) then he may look. This motivation might be supplied by those who realize their humanness and can tell him it's better than the delusion of being a rabbit, whether that's true or not.
The second problem is that there's seemingly a price to be paid in seeing, in that his personal identity as a rabbit is seriously threatened. However, this is an obstacle that can potentially be overcome. If we believed that we were a beggar and we were told we are actually a Prince, even though it may be disrupting and frightening, it may be possible to let go of that identity for something about which little is known, if not for the third problem.
The third problem has to do with the meeting of desire with fulfillment. Typically, desire and fulfillment are present together as they arise from unconscious levels, and are brought to the surface of conscious awareness together. Desire in one hand, the fulfillment of the desire in the other, and they meet to end the tension. If the desire is to win the lottery, and it is fulfilled, the desire brings the fulfillment into our conscious awareness.
If the desire is to realize one is a human and not a rabbit, the moment the desire meets it's fulfillment on unconscious levels, it collapses completely. The momentum of desire abruptly ends before the desire can meet fulfillment since the desire originates in the delusion and the fulfillment collapses the illusion along with the desire. Without any further momentum, the fulfillment (the realization of humanness) is no longer a fulfillment, and it remains as an unconscious knowing that lacks the psychic energy to become conscious.
We could say Burt is already 'enlightened'. The realization is already present. Nothing but the obvious needs to be seen.
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