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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 16:18:16 GMT -5
The story is about the problem so there is'nt any solution. m What does that mean? All I'm suggesting is that the problem be looked at and understood, without all the abstraction.
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Post by Portto on Dec 6, 2010 16:30:19 GMT -5
Nice posts, enigma! All that shaking is making me dizzy. So, does Burt have a problem if you/I/we are not aware of it? Is Burt's problem independent of us? If I run into Burt in the forest, should I give him a carrot, some books, or a smack with a Zen stick?
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Post by m on Dec 6, 2010 16:40:12 GMT -5
The problem is perfectly stated. No solution within it. m The story is about the problem so there is'nt any solution. m What does that mean? All I'm suggesting is that the problem be looked at and understood, without all the abstraction.
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 16:46:11 GMT -5
Nice posts, enigma! All that shaking is making me dizzy. So, does Burt have a problem if you/I/we are not aware of it? Is Burt's problem independent of us? If I run into Burt in the forest, should I give him a carrot, some books, or a smack with a Zen stick? Yes, Burt has a problem. He's suffering because Michael is trying to make dinner out of him. I see attempts to make it a non-problem by questioning whether we can know there is a problem, or if we can know if it isn't our problem, or by making Burt an abstraction, but this is the avoidance of the problem. We can avoid it by calling it a non-problem or our problem but suffering goes on in spite of those abstractions. The delusion is real. The suffering is real. If there really isn't a problem, this will be seen in clearly seeing the problem, right? So can Burt get out, or be led out, of his delusion, and if so, how? It's a real-world problem, not a spiritual problem.
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 16:52:58 GMT -5
Okay, well, I say there is. The solution is in the seeing of that futility itself. This is the end of the seeking, which is the end of the seeker, since the seeker is the seeking. The problem is perfectly stated. No solution within it. m What does that mean? All I'm suggesting is that the problem be looked at and understood, without all the abstraction.
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Post by m on Dec 6, 2010 17:00:27 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 17:10:14 GMT -5
Well, yeah, he said it's obvious, though he's willing to accept the possibility that it's all an illusion, assuming the truth will make him a happier wabbit. If it doesn't what would be the point?
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Post by m on Dec 6, 2010 18:20:03 GMT -5
Well, yeah, he said it's obvious, though he's willing to accept the possibility that it's all an illusion, assuming the truth will make him a happier wabbit. If it doesn't what would be the point?
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Post by m on Dec 6, 2010 18:24:40 GMT -5
... he said it's obvious," "Well Rabbit, for sure that's obvious to you. but I was told I am a rabbit who forgot he is a human. So, could you teach me specifically what I must know and how to remenber I am a rabbit? m Well, yeah, he said it's obvious, though he's willing to accept the possibility that it's all an illusion, assuming the truth will make him a happier wabbit. If it doesn't what would be the point?
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Post by question on Dec 6, 2010 18:38:11 GMT -5
False identity, desire, rejection, denial, projection, impossibility to record the collapse of the structure, all of this you've explained wonderfully.
I just don't get one thing, why would Burt's identity structure collapse? You've explained how, but not why. Some possible reasons for the collapse are: 1) accident, grace (not something that can be copied) 2) extreme motivation/willingness that ends in realizing the futility (again not something that can be copied, because the motivation is proportional to the suffering, and it would be stupid/ineficient to seek suffering in order to increase motivation to realize something illusionary in order to see how futile the game is) 3) ?
The game that Burt is playing is internally consistent and can process all possible data. From within the game he can't have a serious desire to end the game and what he identifies with exists only within the game. He can never honestly articulate the desire to end the game, so then why would it ever end?
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Post by Portto on Dec 6, 2010 19:34:46 GMT -5
Yes, Burt has a problem. He's suffering because Michael is trying to make dinner out of him. I see attempts to make it a non-problem by questioning whether we can know there is a problem, or if we can know if it isn't our problem, or by making Burt an abstraction, but this is the avoidance of the problem. We can avoid it by calling it a non-problem or our problem but suffering goes on in spite of those abstractions. Well, if Burt shows up at my door and Michael is chasing him, I will let Burt in. Is the suffering of ancient Egyptians real? If yes, how can we save them? All in all, I agree that ending suffering and delusion is a worthy cause.
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Post by unveilable on Dec 6, 2010 20:02:13 GMT -5
I wanted to clarify:
I hit a wall about two months back where I became disinterested with books, satsangs, talks of teachers and pointers. At around this time I kept thinking to myself...'I want something I can hold on to” and of course nothing came up. I then began to ask “Well now what?” to which I’ve only been able to answer with 'keep coming back to awareness'.
There is nothing dramatic or terribly dark about my current experience. Its almost as if I could just stop here and live an improved dream with only subtle tensions BUT I’m well aware that I’ve not gone as deep as I will or hope to. So suffering or angst at this point could fuel the realization? I’m screwed if that’s the case. This past year of seeking has been more about a determination with the understanding that this pursuit is all there is...nothing else matters.
So whats going on? I actually thought things were going pretty well until I read this thread lol!
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Post by peanut on Dec 6, 2010 20:08:38 GMT -5
Awesome thread E..thanks... That which you are seeking is causing you to seek! Miss everybody...working like crazy...
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 20:28:15 GMT -5
... he said it's obvious," "Well Rabbit, for sure that's obvious to you. but I was told I am a rabbit who forgot he is a human. So, could you teach me specifically what I must know and how to remenber I am a rabbit? m Well, yeah, he said it's obvious, though he's willing to accept the possibility that it's all an illusion, assuming the truth will make him a happier wabbit. If it doesn't what would be the point? That's what I mean. Burt says it's obvious to him that he's a rabbit being told he forgot he's a human. Again, part of the dilemma is that no knowledge can help Burt realize what he obviously doesn't want to realize. Any process would be equally delusional. The fact of Burt's humanness isn't hidden at all. The delusion of rabbitness is coming from that humanness all the time. There's nothing but that humanness happening. The realization can't be the result of some knowledge or at the end of some process.
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 20:32:55 GMT -5
False identity, desire, rejection, denial, projection, impossibility to record the collapse of the structure, all of this you've explained wonderfully. I just don't get one thing, why would Burt's identity structure collapse? You've explained how, but not why. Some possible reasons for the collapse are: 1) accident, grace (not something that can be copied) 2) extreme motivation/willingness that ends in realizing the futility (again not something that can be copied, because the motivation is proportional to the suffering, and it would be stupid/ineficient to seek suffering in order to increase motivation to realize something illusionary in order to see how futile the game is) 3) ? The game that Burt is playing is internally consistent and can process all possible data. From within the game he can't have a serious desire to end the game and what he identifies with exists only within the game. He can never honestly articulate the desire to end the game, so then why would it ever end? It wouldn't. That's the point. The game didn't end for Burt. He failed. The desire to realize his humanness collapsed in the face of the realization, and the realization never became conscious.
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