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Post by m on Dec 5, 2010 16:33:06 GMT -5
ZD: That is really fun! Thanks a lot for sharing your hamburger ! m Duuno why, but while skiing this morning and thinking about the bunny, I remembered something Zen Master Seung Sahn used to do and say. He would ask a student an existential question, and refute every answer until the student was reduced to answering "I don't know." ZMSS would then clap his hands together, grin, and say, "Wonderful, you are now enlightened, there is nothing left to do." Of course, I never saw a student able to accept that claim. If anyone had been able to stay in a state of not-knowing, the search might have ended right there and actualized the claim. Invariably the mind couldn't stand to be left out and jumped back in to check on things. "Uh oh. I'm still here, so I can't be enlightened." LOL. The universe is a very strange thing. It blows itself up in the form of stars, and crashes itself together in the form of galaxies. It frolics in the form of amoebas, bunnies, and human thingies. In the form of humans, it imagines all kinds of things (including alternative universes), and that's where the fun really begins. The universe looks at Itself out of every creature's eyes. In the form of a human baby it looks at Itself and interacts with Itself directly through its body. As the universe grows in the form of a human child, It develops the power of imagination and begins to imaginatively divide what it sees into separate things. Everything it sees is real, but everything it imagines is imaginary. When it looks at what a tree IS, it imagines that it sees a tree. Because its parents lied to it, and told it that it was a human being (because they had been lied to by their parents and didn't know any better), it does not realize that it is always looking at Itself. It gradually begins to spend all of its time imagining and thereby keeps its attention focused 99.9% of the time on ideas, images, and symbols. If it could cease imagining, it would see only Itself, a unified oneness, manifesting "just like this." The universe loves to eat hamburgers, but most of the time It imagines, in the form of human beings, that It is a particular human being eating a hamburger. If it could just eat the hamburger and not imagine anything, It might realize the truth. If It could eat a hamburger without imagining that It is a human being eating a hamburger, It might wake up to Itself. At this moment, regardless of what anyone is doing, that is what the universe it doing. Not knowing is the path that leads to the realization, "Oh, I am the universe doing this, and there is no one other than Me, the universe, who could be doing this. I am the alpha and the omega, the one without a second, the unimaginable isness of All." Look around in silence. Look without knowing. Don't imagine anything. You are looking at "what is." Continue looking at "what is" until "what is" is all there is. Don't try to imagine what is looking at "what is." Sooner or later, "what is" will realize that there is nothing other than "what is" and that all ideas of there being a separate looker were nothing more than ideas. At that point the universe will laugh with delight at the incredible joke that It played on Itself. It will say, "How funny, I mistakenly thought that there was someone other than Me here." The universe may then go eat a hamburger in joy and recognition that This is how It manfests. Ummmmmmm. Tasty!
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 17:05:50 GMT -5
Enigma : You said " Runstill was talking about awareness in the context of being aware of thought. In that context, being aware of a thought is not the same as a thought appearing about a thought, which was my understanding of his circularity dilemma."I think, I get what you mean. I was pointing that, for me awareness and consciousness just never meet (like the sky and the clouds) . Awareness is free of any context, thoughts... m Yeah, I'll buy that.
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 17:11:00 GMT -5
Enigma : you said "In case it was missed (HA!), the question is, can one be led out of a delusion from within his delusion?" Amma said once: "The guru is like a clock in the dream". That stoke me as true. May be like a hole opening itself in a veil. For,otherwise how could we be deluded from the delusion at all? m You mean, how could awakening happen? I'm not really even sure about the role of the guru. What I see is that the desire may lead you to a door, but it cannot take you through. Even the desire to awaken must fall away.
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Post by m on Dec 5, 2010 18:27:43 GMT -5
Enigma: I don't know either what the role of the guru may be or not. I'm ok too with the powerlessness of desire.
The metaphore of the guru (reality) being "like a clock in the dream"...
Sometime when we dream, if an outside noise happens ( a phone ringing for exemple) the dreamer can "get it into the dream, making it, part of the dream "OH! Somebody's calling!" And he may awake at that point.
The dream being compared to a veil, the tissue of illusion, the "ringing is like and opening of , a tearing in the veil . The space of the hole is not something, it does not belong to the veil. The opened hole, if big enough can reduce the veil to nothing. Truth stoke again! No more clouds, just the sky, the hole ate all the veil. So that we don't even have an "experience" since no experiencer as well.
Or the hole can be so small that nothing is noticed, nothing change and quickly the veil reforms itself.
If the hole is not big enough to dissoolve the veil, but enough to be noticed , it wil be notice by the dreamer as a hole "with boarders". And then we have the so-called "enligthement experieces" totally spoiled by the confusing of the hole (pure awareness :space, sky) with the specific design of boarders (consciousness, objects: content) which are those of the veil. And then here we go with "enlightements" which are spoiled by the cousciousness and thoughts we have about Enlightement: Great,little, deep, shallow ... Only the space in which is the veil and, space which can be in the veil (both spaces being one and the same), as hole in the veil, can awaken, or, better is awake. " awakening" being a process word is innapropriate. The only process is the tearing and repairing of the veil.There is no awakening process. And what awakes (the space outside-inside the veil) is actually awaken by nature. so that, in fact no awakening: just Awareness and content. instead of the confusion of both. m m
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Post by enigma on Dec 5, 2010 18:53:59 GMT -5
Enigma: I don't know either what the role of the guru may be or not. I'm ok too with the powerlessness of desire. The metaphore of the guru (reality) being "like a clock in the dream"... Sometime when we dream, if an outside noise happens ( a phone ringing for exemple) the dreamer can "get it into the dream, making it, part of the dream "OH! Somebody's calling!" And he may awake at that point. The dream being compared to a veil, the tissue of illusion, the "ringing is like and opening of , a tearing in the veil . The space of the hole is not something, it does not belong to the veil. The opened hole, if big enough can reduce the veil to nothing. Truth stoke again! No more clouds, just the sky, the hole ate all the veil. So that we don't even have an "experience" since no experiencer as well. Or the hole can be so small that nothing is noticed, nothing change and quickly the veil reforms itself. If the hole is not big enough to dissoolve the veil, but enough to be noticed , it wil be notice by the dreamer as a hole "with boarders". And then we have the so-called "enligthement experieces" totally spoiled by the confusing of the hole (pure awareness :space, sky) with the specific design of boarders (consciousness, objects: content) which are those of the veil. And then here we go with "enlightements" which are spoiled by the cousciousness and thoughts we have about Enlightement: Great,little, deep, shallow ... Only the space in which is the veil and, space which can be in the veil (both spaces being one and the same), as hole in the veil, can awaken, or, better is awake. " awakening" being a process word is innapropriate. The only process is the tearing and repairing of the veil.There is no awakening process. And what awakes (the space outside-inside the veil) is actually awaken by nature. so that, in fact no awakening: just Awareness and content. instead of the confusion of both. m m
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Post by monkkey on Dec 6, 2010 0:35:14 GMT -5
lexi- never underestimate the power of delusion! maya does have her ways!
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Post by m on Dec 6, 2010 2:56:59 GMT -5
Enigma: I don't know either what the role of the guru may be or not. I'm ok too with the powerlessness of desire. The metaphore of the guru (reality) being "like a clock in the dream"... Sometime when we dream, if an outside noise happens ( a phone ringing for exemple) the dreamer can "get it into the dream, making it, part of the dream "OH! Somebody's calling!" And he may awake at that point. The dream being compared to a veil, the tissue of illusion, the "ringing is like and opening of , a tearing in the veil . The space of the hole is not something, it does not belong to the veil. The opened hole, if big enough can reduce the veil to nothing. Truth stoke again! No more clouds, just the sky, the hole ate all the veil. So that we don't even have an "experience" since no experiencer as well. Or the hole can be so small that nothing is noticed, nothing change and quickly the veil reforms itself. If the hole is not big enough to dissoolve the veil, but enough to be noticed , it wil be notice by the dreamer as a hole "with boarders". And then we have the so-called "enligthement experieces" totally spoiled by the confusing of the hole (pure awareness :space, sky) with the specific design of boarders (consciousness, objects: content) which are those of the veil. And then here we go with "enlightements" which are spoiled by the cousciousness and thoughts we have about Enlightement: Great,little, deep, shallow ... Only the space in which is the veil and, space which can be in the veil (both spaces being one and the same), as hole in the veil, can awaken, or, better is awake. " awakening" being a process word is innapropriate. The only process is the tearing and repairing of the veil.There is no awakening process. And what awakes (the space outside-inside the veil) is actually awaken by nature. so that, in fact no awakening: just Awareness and content. instead of the confusion of both. m m
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Post by Portto on Dec 6, 2010 9:07:13 GMT -5
In case it was missed (HA!), the question is, can one be led out of a delusion from within his delusion? ... Burt's desire to realize his humanness arises only from within his delusion of rabbitness... Nice question! We can come up with lots of answers, including the Buddhist-type "Is Burt really deluded, or it only seems so?" or the evolutionist-type "Creation goes from lower forms to higher forms, and Burt will become a better being." I would say that Burt desired/will desire every little thing. And we don't even have to look in the past or future to see that. There's plenty of Burt-s around wishing to become humans, others want to become chipmunks or birds butterflies, others want food/houses/money etc. As you well know, and as ZD mentioned in his post, it's not really the bunny wishing those things. The bunny is inseparable from the wish and from the outcome.
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 12:10:51 GMT -5
In case it was missed (HA!), the question is, can one be led out of a delusion from within his delusion? ... Burt's desire to realize his humanness arises only from within his delusion of rabbitness... Nice question! We can come up with lots of answers, including the Buddhist-type "Is Burt really deluded, or it only seems so?" or the evolutionist-type "Creation goes from lower forms to higher forms, and Burt will become a better being." I would say that Burt desired/will desire every little thing. And we don't even have to look in the past or future to see that. There's plenty of Burt-s around wishing to become humans, others want to become chipmunks or birds butterflies, others want food/houses/money etc. As you well know, and as ZD mentioned in his post, it's not really the bunny wishing those things. The bunny is inseparable from the wish and from the outcome. Welp, the object was to not have to deal with abstractions. Burt thinks he's a rabbit. This is a fact. He really IS deluded and his rabbitness isn't becoming anything because it's a delusion. No matter how much work Burt does on the path to realizing his humanness, he never gets any closer or any farther away. The truth of his humanness is obvious and is not a concept but a timeless realization that he has always been what he sought, and in fact it was his humanness that was seeking itself. Part of the dilemma is that seeking from within the belief in rabbitness is equally delusional and can't succeed. The reason it can't succeed is that, in the moment of realization, the desire to realize collapses. If you desire a new car, and you get it, the fulfillment matches the desire and they can both exist simultaneously. If through your rabbitness, you desire to realize your humanness, your desire cannot co-exist with the realization of your humanness because it's only the apparent rabbit that desires this realization, and this rabbitness disappears as the realization occurs. There is no impetus to bring the realization to your conscious awareness.
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Post by Portto on Dec 6, 2010 14:21:32 GMT -5
^^^^ Trying to avoid abstractions is certainly a noble cause.
Maybe I'm in buddhist-mode today, but what is Burt if not an abstraction? So who is it that is deluded?
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 14:36:10 GMT -5
---Trying to shake Porto out of Buddhist mode....shake, shake, shake----
This isn't about spiritual stuff or Beingness/Isness/Whatever. This is about a hypothetical person who falls under a delusion and the process of realizing the truth of the matter.
Burt is a person. Burt is deluded. He thinks he's a bunny wabbit.
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Post by howtalk on Dec 6, 2010 15:14:49 GMT -5
I felt the main focus of this story had nothing to do with Burt
It was the other people. So this Bert thing thought it was a rabbit. So what? Why should they care? How do they know Bert is not a rabbit, and it is they who are being decived in seeing a human? How do they know what is right or best for another dream creature in creation?
To me it is the "helpers" that are deluded...maybe Burt is fine
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 15:24:03 GMT -5
So how do you help Burt with his delusion? First you have to instill a desire in him to realize his human nature. Typically, this will only be possible if he's grown weary of being a rabbit, or if the suffering of hiding under Michaelsees' cabin to avoid being his dinner has become intolerable. Whatever the case, this desire is needed.
Naturally, then, Burt will set out on a search for his humanness. Books, seminars, bunny humanism churches, whatever seems to bring him closer to his humanness. He meditates and has all sorts of mind state experiences of his imagined human qualities but they don't last. Can anything bring him closer to what he already is, or is the search basically a distraction from the obvious? Can the searching ever result in finding or is it really that the searching just needs to stop before there's really any chance of the obvious being noticed? Does he need to learn something in order to notice he's really a human? Can this realization be at the end of some process that he goes through as a bunny? Does he have to traverse the Great Bunny Void in order to arrive at his humanness?
At this point, we notice that the searching itself has become quite a distraction because most of his thoughts, as well as the search itself, are driven by the very delusion we want him to let go of. The rabbit is what wants to escape the terror of Michael's shotgun, not Burt. It's the rabbit that wants to realize his humanness, not the human. So, we suggest that he slow down those thoughts and remove the intense focus on what the rabbit wants, since it seems the only way to notice the obvious.
So, he spends the next 10 years trying to stop his rabbit thoughts, experiences a lot of peace and his life goes a lot better and he writes a couple of books of his own and does a few seminars on rabbit peace and becomes a rabbit coach, but he still hasn't realized his human nature.
What is his motivation for noticing this? What does he get out of it? If he's not motivated to notice it, can it be noticed?
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Post by enigma on Dec 6, 2010 15:32:20 GMT -5
I felt the main focus of this story had nothing to do with Burt It was the other people. So this Bert thing thought it was a rabbit. So what? Why should they care? How do they know Bert is not a rabbit, and it is they who are being decived in seeing a human? How do they know what is right or best for another dream creature in creation? To me it is the "helpers" that are deluded...maybe Burt is fine No, Burt is not fine in his rabbit delusion. Every day he gets chased through the woods by Michael waving a shotgun with a crazed, hungry look on his face, and he's suffering. His family isn't deluded. They're not sitting around thinking existential thoughts and questioning whether it makes perfect sense that Burt stays out in the garden, crawling around on all fours and nibbling plants. The problem is clear. The story is about the solution.
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Post by m on Dec 6, 2010 16:12:40 GMT -5
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