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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 22, 2013 9:56:42 GMT -5
I read this last night just before going to bed, I see the flower and the flower sees me. It's from The Awakening of Zen by DT Zuzuki, 1980 The Buddhist Society and republished in 2000 by Shambhala.
It's a book I've had for a couple of months, poked around a little in, but just last night actually started reading. It's a collection. I'm going to quote a short section as it directly relates to another recent thread here (I think this could be an interesting discussion thread). Now, I'm not one much for authority, but when mutuality corroborates a certain viewpoint I think it OK to say, look at this.
Now, it's not my viewpoint the quotes will show mutuality for, I just felt the desire to share.......for whatever reason........
"There is someone who has an intuition and something in regard to which he has it. There is nothing between subject and object. These intuitions may take place immediately, i.e., without any intermediary; nevertheless there are subject and object, though their relationship is immediate instead of being through an immediate agent. This kind of intuition we talk very much about but the intuition that Zen talks about is identification-seeing. That is, when I see the flower and the flower sees me, this kind of intuition or mutual identification is not individual seeing; it is not individual intuition. "I see the flower and the flower sees me" means that the flower ceases to be a flower. I cease to be myself. Instead there is unification. The flower vanishes into something higher than a flower and I vanish into something higher than any individual object.
Now when this leveling takes place, this being absorbed into something higher than each relative being, it does not mean merely being absorbed; there is intuition, awakening; there is something that acknowledges itself to be itself, not annihilation or mere absorption into the void. This "annihilation" is accompanied by intuition and that is the most important point. When this takes place there is a real seeing of the flower. Therefore we can say that this--my seeing the flower and the flower seeing me--takes place on a higher plane than that where the flower is seen as an individual flower and I am seen as an individual being. When there is absorption of the individual into something higher, there is intuition. This is most important. This is in accordance with the original teaching of Wei Lang. Prajna is Jhana. (pgs 24,25)
sdp
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 28, 2013 10:26:00 GMT -5
As this left the first page, I thought I'd pull it up again......for whom it may concern....... :-) .........or not.........whatever........
sdp
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Post by nowhereman on Sept 28, 2013 11:50:33 GMT -5
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Post by runstill on Sept 28, 2013 12:25:18 GMT -5
I read this last night just before going to bed, I see the flower and the flower sees me. It's from The Awakening of Zen by DT Zuzuki, 1980 The Buddhist Society and republished in 2000 by Shambhala. It's a book I've had for a couple of months, poked around a little in, but just last night actually started reading. It's a collection. I'm going to quote a short section as it directly relates to another recent thread here (I think this could be an interesting discussion thread). Now, I'm not one much for authority, but when mutuality corroborates a certain viewpoint I think it OK to say, look at this. Now, it's not my viewpoint the quotes will show mutuality for, I just felt the desire to share.......for whatever reason........ "There is someone who has an intuition and something in regard to which he has it. There is nothing between subject and object. These intuitions may take place immediately, i.e., without any intermediary; nevertheless there are subject and object, though their relationship is immediate instead of being through an immediate agent. This kind of intuition we talk very much about but the intuition that Zen talks about is identification-seeing. That is, when I see the flower and the flower sees me, this kind of intuition or mutual identification is not individual seeing; it is not individual intuition. "I see the flower and the flower sees me" means that the flower ceases to be a flower. I cease to be myself. Instead there is unification. The flower vanishes into something higher than a flower and I vanish into something higher than any individual object. Now when this leveling takes place, this being absorbed into something higher than each relative being, it does not mean merely being absorbed; there is intuition, awakening; there is something that acknowledges itself to be itself, not annihilation or mere absorption into the void. This "annihilation" is accompanied by intuition and that is the most important point. When this takes place there is a real seeing of the flower. Therefore we can say that this--my seeing the flower and the flower seeing me--takes place on a higher plane than that where the flower is seen as an individual flower and I am seen as an individual being. When there is absorption of the individual into something higher, there is intuition. This is most important. This is in accordance with the original teaching of Wei Lang. Prajna is Jhana. (pgs 24,25) sdp The bolded rezzes........
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 15:22:21 GMT -5
I read this last night just before going to bed, I see the flower and the flower sees me. It's from The Awakening of Zen by DT Zuzuki, 1980 The Buddhist Society and republished in 2000 by Shambhala. It's a book I've had for a couple of months, poked around a little in, but just last night actually started reading. It's a collection. I'm going to quote a short section as it directly relates to another recent thread here (I think this could be an interesting discussion thread). Now, I'm not one much for authority, but when mutuality corroborates a certain viewpoint I think it OK to say, look at this. Now, it's not my viewpoint the quotes will show mutuality for, I just felt the desire to share.......for whatever reason........ "There is someone who has an intuition and something in regard to which he has it. There is nothing between subject and object. These intuitions may take place immediately, i.e., without any intermediary; nevertheless there are subject and object, though their relationship is immediate instead of being through an immediate agent. This kind of intuition we talk very much about but the intuition that Zen talks about is identification-seeing. That is, when I see the flower and the flower sees me, this kind of intuition or mutual identification is not individual seeing; it is not individual intuition. " I see the flower and the flower sees me" means that the flower ceases to be a flower. I cease to be myself. Instead there is unification. The flower vanishes into something higher than a flower and I vanish into something higher than any individual object. Now when this leveling takes place, this being absorbed into something higher than each relative being, it does not mean merely being absorbed; there is intuition, awakening; there is something that acknowledges itself to be itself, not annihilation or mere absorption into the void. This "annihilation" is accompanied by intuition and that is the most important point. When this takes place there is a real seeing of the flower. Therefore we can say that this--my seeing the flower and the flower seeing me--takes place on a higher plane than that where the flower is seen as an individual flower and I am seen as an individual being. When there is absorption of the individual into something higher, there is intuition. This is most important. This is in accordance with the original teaching of Wei Lang. Prajna is Jhana. (pgs 24,25) sdp Haha....glad I finally saw this thread to acknowledge it SDP. DT Suzuki describes Samadhi very well here. Its not a case of an individual realizing something, and this state is not one that occurs in the "I" or self....Its not a a state occurring in ________. Its the absolute absorption of everything.....it dies not occur in your mind or anything else, on the contrary, your mind, your experience if self, and everything, I mean EVERYTHING, is absorbed in it. The flower and you disappear, absorbed together in a kind of oneness of being that is absolute. ZD makes a distinction between Absolute and Relative Samadhi....and in this instance, DT Suzuki is talking about Relative Samadhi....but in a way that is impossible to accurately describe, there is no difference between relative Samadhi and Absolute Samadhi when one is absorbed....it is only after the re-emergence of self from the utter absorption of everything in Samadhi that the self distinguishes between Absolute Samadhi (where there are no appearance of phenomena) and Relative Samadhi (where there is the appearance of phenomena). I've stopped distinguishing between relative and absolute Samadhi, because it is only the mind that distinguishes between then, when one is absorbed, there is no difference, the "difference" is something that mind comes up with and gives importance to. In any case, its interesting....DT Suzuki use to be very popular....it was largely him that brought Zen to the West. Probably the two guys that are most responsible for forums like this existing in the west, are Paramhamsa Yogananda, and DT Suzuki. Without DT Suzuki, there may not have been guys like Richard Rose or Bob Harwood (ZD), DT Suzuki introduced ZEN to the west. Good find SDP, and thanks for the post ;-)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 3, 2013 21:24:14 GMT -5
I read this last night just before going to bed, I see the flower and the flower sees me. It's from The Awakening of Zen by DT Zuzuki, 1980 The Buddhist Society and republished in 2000 by Shambhala. It's a book I've had for a couple of months, poked around a little in, but just last night actually started reading. It's a collection. I'm going to quote a short section as it directly relates to another recent thread here (I think this could be an interesting discussion thread). Now, I'm not one much for authority, but when mutuality corroborates a certain viewpoint I think it OK to say, look at this. Now, it's not my viewpoint the quotes will show mutuality for, I just felt the desire to share.......for whatever reason........ "There is someone who has an intuition and something in regard to which he has it. There is nothing between subject and object. These intuitions may take place immediately, i.e., without any intermediary; nevertheless there are subject and object, though their relationship is immediate instead of being through an immediate agent. This kind of intuition we talk very much about but the intuition that Zen talks about is identification-seeing. That is, when I see the flower and the flower sees me, this kind of intuition or mutual identification is not individual seeing; it is not individual intuition. " I see the flower and the flower sees me" means that the flower ceases to be a flower. I cease to be myself. Instead there is unification. The flower vanishes into something higher than a flower and I vanish into something higher than any individual object. Now when this leveling takes place, this being absorbed into something higher than each relative being, it does not mean merely being absorbed; there is intuition, awakening; there is something that acknowledges itself to be itself, not annihilation or mere absorption into the void. This "annihilation" is accompanied by intuition and that is the most important point. When this takes place there is a real seeing of the flower. Therefore we can say that this--my seeing the flower and the flower seeing me--takes place on a higher plane than that where the flower is seen as an individual flower and I am seen as an individual being. When there is absorption of the individual into something higher, there is intuition. This is most important. This is in accordance with the original teaching of Wei Lang. Prajna is Jhana. (pgs 24,25) sdp Haha....glad I finally saw this thread to acknowledge it SDP. DT Suzuki describes Samadhi very well here. Its not a case of an individual realizing something, and this state is not one that occurs in the "I" or self....Its not a a state occurring in ________. Its the absolute absorption of everything.....it dies not occur in your mind or anything else, on the contrary, your mind, your experience if self, and everything, I mean EVERYTHING, is absorbed in it. The flower and you disappear, absorbed together in a kind of oneness of being that is absolute. ZD makes a distinction between Absolute and Relative Samadhi....and in this instance, DT Suzuki is talking about Relative Samadhi....but in a way that is impossible to accurately describe, there is no difference between relative Samadhi and Absolute Samadhi when one is absorbed....it is only after the re-emergence of self from the utter absorption of everything in Samadhi that the self distinguishes between Absolute Samadhi (where there are no appearance of phenomena) and Relative Samadhi (where there is the appearance of phenomena). I've stopped distinguishing between relative and absolute Samadhi, because it is only the mind that distinguishes between then, when one is absorbed, there is no difference, the "difference" is something that mind comes up with and gives importance to. In any case, its interesting....DT Suzuki use to be very popular....it was largely him that brought Zen to the West. Probably the two guys that are most responsible for forums like this existing in the west, are Paramhamsa Yogananda, and DT Suzuki. Without DT Suzuki, there may not have been guys like Richard Rose or Bob Harwood (ZD), DT Suzuki introduced ZEN to the west. Good find SDP, and thanks for the post ;-) Yea, I read that and immediately thought of you, I figured you'd eventually see it. I appreciate your zest for the quest (although I'm sure you would not put it in those words). ...........You're sort of like Walter White (Breaking Bad, in a good way), no holds barred........... DT Suzuki was a pretty enlightened guy. In the early '50's he was invited to Madame Ouspensky's place, Franklin Farms, Mendham, NJ, spoke there on I think it was a Sunday afternoon..... sdp
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Post by Reefs on Oct 3, 2013 23:30:33 GMT -5
Yea, I read that and immediately thought of you, I figured you'd eventually see it. I appreciate your zest for the quest (although I'm sure you would not put it in those words). ...........You're sort of like Walter White (Breaking Bad, in a good way), no holds barred........... DT Suzuki was a pretty enlightened guy. In the early '50's he was invited to Madame Ouspensky's place, Franklin Farms, Mendham, NJ, spoke there on I think it was a Sunday afternoon..... sdp Haha....its a fair analogy that breaking bad bit. Ya know, for my whole life, since I was a small child, as yound as I can remember, this stuff is all I ever really cared about. i.e. the nature of God and Us and This....Contemplating it and exoring it in every way possible has been my whole life really. Looking back on it, I have been sitting for long periods in what the zen guys call relative Samdhi since I was a small child, the other kids, mostly my brothers and sisters, would play all kinds of games to try and get my attention while I was just sitting being absorbed in the sitting. In my adult life, I pursued a lot of other interests like business, and girls, and even drugs for a little period there, but most I did all those things because I felt like I was supposed to, but at the center was always this thing, this exploration, his contemplation. At times the exploration was a seeking for sure, but mostly it has just been an exploration of unfolding and opening. Early on, in my twenties when I decided that enlightenment was going to be my central objective, I committed to it wholeheartedly, and read everything I could find, studied every "method" and tradition, but resolved to forge a new path (so I thought) amd instead of going the way of Ramana, or the forest monk, or the anything like a removal from life, I was going to forge a path to enlightenment while living a normal western life. I new of nobody that had done this back then, and figured if I could do it then my enlightenment, my budhahood could forge a path that others could follow without going the way of a Ramana or a monastary, or an ascetic life. How naive, ignorant, and uninformed I was... Haha, I have failed on every front....what I sought so hard was always there, so in some ways the search was in vein, but not totally so....and I totally failed over and over at leading a "normal western life", as I am sure my wife wi attest to....I just could never really relate to the same concerns as the so called "normal western family man". I was just all to willing to lose everything I gained in tge material life at any moment if it meant a greater opening into THIS. So financially my life has been a roller coaster that I didn't really get very emotionally engaged in lol. A couple of minths ago, you might so "I broke bad" though :-) I was always willing to do whatever this "quest" demanded, including give up my life if needed, but there was always in the background this feeling of "well, you should be at least somewhat concerned with all these worldly things"....but now that mostly gone...I am as God wills me to be, and I do as God wills me to do, and let the chips fall where they may. Mostly, I just sit in silence now....without a care in the world lol, secure in the knowledge that whatever I am doing or not doing is God's will, and however that works out it works out. I do find myself feeling the urge to write this stuff down though, the stuff I've seen and learned iver the years, so that it may be of use to someone though. But, everything is just as it is, and not supposed to be any other way. Haha, 'worldly things'. There's nothing more spiritual than thriving in all aspects of your life.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2013 14:01:24 GMT -5
Mostly, I just sit in silence now....without a care in the world lol, secure in the knowledge that whatever I am doing or not doing is God's will, and however that works out it works out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2013 18:28:42 GMT -5
Mostly, I just sit in silence now....without a care in the world lol, secure in the knowledge that whatever I am doing or not doing is God's will, and however that works out it works out. Do you really think God's will is to sit on a meditation pillow in silence until the mind/body dies?! What if his will was to use death as an adviser so that he could live and experience the manifestation of a human to the fullest?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2013 19:02:49 GMT -5
Do you really think God's will is to sit on a meditation pillow in silence until the mind/body dies?! What if his will was to use death as an adviser so that he could live and experience the manifestation of a human to the fullest? I have no idea what God's will is, other than what is happening right now. having said that, why do you ask? Do you know anyone that is sitting on a meditation cushion in silence until the mind/body dies? Do you even know of anyone that has advocated that? If you do not know of anyone that is sitting on a cushion meditating until the body/mind dies, or anyone that has advocated it, why are you asking if someone believes that it is God's will? I am not idly asking, I am trying to point out how being absorbed in mentation and vasanas can take one down a meaningless path like this line of questioning that you started with that post, and how that whole movement is based on a self delusion. If you doubt that you have asked a question based on the self delusion that I said or believe that its God's will that I or anyone else should sit on a meditation cushion meditating until death, then you may want to look more closely at what was written to see if it is not a self delusion that you are engaging in. In this case, its pretty easy to see if you are deluding yourself about what I have written here...simply look at my posts without creating a story, just look. The investigation can be a good chance to see on yourself how one can get drug along by vasanas.
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 4, 2013 19:03:30 GMT -5
Do you really think God's will is to sit on a meditation pillow in silence until the mind/body dies?! What if his will was to use death as an adviser so that he could live and experience the manifestation of a human to the fullest? What does "Gods Will" even mean? Who is God here?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2013 19:08:46 GMT -5
Do you really think God's will is to sit on a meditation pillow in silence until the mind/body dies?! What if his will was to use death as an adviser so that he could live and experience the manifestation of a human to the fullest? Who is God here? You are.
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 4, 2013 19:13:08 GMT -5
Thank God! So my will atm is to get something to eat then maybe sit on a soft pillow in silence
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2013 19:17:26 GMT -5
Thank God! So my will atm is to get something to eat then maybe sit on a soft pillow in silence LoL it is what it is....though if you really wanted to look at God's will, you might find that in this moment, God's will is that you are reading a forum post....and possibly thinking about getting something to eat and sitting on a cushion.... God's will is the ISNESS OF RIGHT NOW.
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 4, 2013 19:24:33 GMT -5
Thank God! So my will atm is to get something to eat then maybe sit on a soft pillow in silence LoL it is what it is....though if you really wanted to look at God's will, you might find that in this moment, God's will is that you are reading a forum post....and possibly thinking about getting something to eat and sitting on a cushion.... God's will is the ISNESS OF RIGHT NOW. Yup that works perfectly in my world so are you a old member that does the name change thingy?
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