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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2013 0:51:58 GMT -5
Another take on it would be that the misconception begins where the unconsciousness ends ... not that there's anything wrong with that! Well, I dunno your definition of 'unconscious'. There are several possible definitions. Just keep it to the quote.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 0:57:50 GMT -5
As a state of emotional/physical enjoyment that permeates the body/mind, typically related to an event or experience. Pleasure? Pleasure is an aspect of happiness, as is Joy....The former seems to be more narrow in scope while the latter has a more spacious quality. Whatever the aspect or presentation, it is a narrowed view of an individuated ME.....Even when one realizes that they are not an individual, the experience individuation remains until through alertness and awareness the experience of individuation and self awareness awaken suddenly into the wholeness of no self or doing. And it is only through this subtle experience of an individual doer that happiness arises. Happiness compared to this experience is like a comparing the comfort of your Mother's compassion to the first orgasm in your lover's embrace. They are different, and one leaves the Mother for the latter.
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2013 0:58:23 GMT -5
I read it to mean that the everyday life of any fully body/mind-identified Joe Schmoe is just as much a search for the truth as the life of a shaved-head, mountain-dwelling vegan 12-hour-a-day-meditating Zen Monk. Well, let's just say they all follow a natural call on different conceptual levels. So, basically there's no difference between Joe and Mr Vegan. They both follow a concept, they both act on a misconception, they both take the conceptual overlay for real. Yes. The monk, in becoming conscious of the search for her true nature, becomes less concerned with any vague sense of happiness or the material trappings of it like Joey's Maserati. The monk's misconception is that she has to search for that nature. Another way to state this is that there is no apparent action or thought, no instant in a life that isn't self-inquiry. Any life. Any instant.
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Post by quinn on Sept 17, 2013 4:30:23 GMT -5
Well, I didn't get the feeling you were catching my drift so I was a little playful there with you. Just ignore it if it irritates you. Attachments:
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Post by quinn on Sept 17, 2013 4:42:09 GMT -5
Well, like I said to Reefs, too bad we can't call him up. Seems to me, you're both taking the term "unconscious" in that quote as something negative. Isn't it possible there could be an unconscious movement towards realization? A 'call home', so to speak. Anyway, that's how I read it. I read it to mean that the everyday life of any fully body/mind-identified Joe Schmoe is just as much a search for the truth as the life of a shaved-head, mountain-dwelling vegan 12-hour-a-day-meditating Zen Monk. How so? Are you saying something similar to what I'm saying - that the impetus is the same? See, it seems to me that life wants to express itself cleanly. In its pure form. And when that expression gets confused or muddied, it creates a dissonance. Dissonance wants to be resolved. Seems like that's a natural movement like water finding its own level.
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Post by quinn on Sept 17, 2013 6:27:19 GMT -5
That is all true, but it leaves out another movement. It could be called intuition, although I don't like that word much cause it conjures up thoughts of higher selves or some such thing. But something like intuition, which points away from that tension. Yeah, intuition. But what is intuition? I haven't got a clue. Many times, in spiritual circles, I've been given the advice to listen to my intuition and my reaction has always been, "What intuition?". If it's some kind of internal voice, there had always been plenty of that, generally dishing out a whole array of weird commands. Oh, you mean like the one that says, "Go have a smoke!"? I don't know if I'm talking about intuition or not. Something quiet and steady that occasionally shows itself and says, "Yes". I think most of us have had those moments, but they're so quiet we may have discounted them or turned away.
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Post by Beingist on Sept 17, 2013 7:29:12 GMT -5
Yeah, intuition. But what is intuition? I haven't got a clue. Many times, in spiritual circles, I've been given the advice to listen to my intuition and my reaction has always been, "What intuition?". If it's some kind of internal voice, there had always been plenty of that, generally dishing out a whole array of weird commands. Oh, you mean like the one that says, "Go have a smoke!"? I don't know if I'm talking about intuition or not. Something quiet and steady that occasionally shows itself and says, "Yes". I think most of us have had those moments, but they're so quiet we may have discounted them or turned away. Funny, after reading this, something quiet in my gut showed itself, and said, 'yes'.
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2013 9:21:37 GMT -5
I read it to mean that the everyday life of any fully body/mind-identified Joe Schmoe is just as much a search for the truth as the life of a shaved-head, mountain-dwelling vegan 12-hour-a-day-meditating Zen Monk. How so? First off, bear in mind that this is in the abstract, and that what we're discussing is based on Papaji's use of the word unconscious, and I've already resorted to a hypothetical. If you asked most people the question "do you want to be happy?", especially the fully mind/body identified ones, what would you expect the answer to be? The quote takes the search for happiness as a given, as it starts with "Our search for happiness" and proceeds to characterize that search. So it seems to me that Papaji is saying that while most Joe Schmoes are conscious of the search for happiness, they aren't conscious that this search for happiness is the search for our true nature. If you asked someone not so fully mind/body identified, but who considered themselves a seeker, what it was they were searching for, something like the answer "true nature" or "my true Self" would be a typically expected sort of response, especially back in Papaji's day which was before "you are what you seek" had become, as Reefs points out, a proverb. It's an ironic sidenote that it was RM's life and words (Papaji's teacher) that helped make "you are what you seek" a proverb. That same seeker is likely to have a more nuanced view on happiness. Perhaps they might deny it altogether, but at the very least the basis of it has likely shifted away from material gratification -- remember that I invoked the archetype of the Zen Monk in the comparison. The difference between the two is that the seeker is conscious that they're looking for something that they consider a bit more meaningful, something with more depth than simple happiness. The commonality between the two suggested by the quote is that they are seeking the same thing. Are you saying something similar to what I'm saying - that the impetus is the same? Seems to me that Papaji is clearly saying that "search for happiness" = "search for our true Self". While this doesn't necessarily mean that the impetus is the same, my intuition is that, as Reefs mentioned, the idea of the "homing instinct" applies here, so I'd give you a cautious yes to that. (hah! nice synch: wrote that sentence before reading the post below the one I responded to) See, it seems to me that life wants to express itself cleanly. In its pure form. And when that expression gets confused or muddied, it creates a dissonance. Dissonance wants to be resolved. Seems like that's a natural movement like water finding its own level. The metaphor of water finding it's level is one that I like and I think I understand what you mean here by the creation of a dissonance and the natural impetus toward resolution of that impetus. I'm reminded of "what resists persists". I rambled off from here on a critique on the rest of those four sentences that isn't necessary and I'll keep it to myself unless you want me to share it, which I can do in private if you'd rather.
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Post by enigma on Sept 17, 2013 10:47:38 GMT -5
Yeah, intuition. But what is intuition? I haven't got a clue. Many times, in spiritual circles, I've been given the advice to listen to my intuition and my reaction has always been, "What intuition?". If it's some kind of internal voice, there had always been plenty of that, generally dishing out a whole array of weird commands. Oh, you mean like the one that says, "Go have a smoke!"? I don't know if I'm talking about intuition or not. Something quiet and steady that occasionally shows itself and says, "Yes". I think most of us have had those moments, but they're so quiet we may have discounted them or turned away. Intuition is a word I used to use to talk about insights. Now I just lump all insights, great and small, into the category of realization. Partly because unconscious feeling can masquerade as intuition, as you suggest, and partly because I see the 'process' of realization as the same regardless of how powerful or mundane it is. The mother, the scientist, and the spiritual devotee are all having realizations, they just take different forms because the focus of attention is different.
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Post by quinn on Sept 17, 2013 15:59:30 GMT -5
I haven't got a clue. Many times, in spiritual circles, I've been given the advice to listen to my intuition and my reaction has always been, "What intuition?". If it's some kind of internal voice, there had always been plenty of that, generally dishing out a whole array of weird commands. Oh, you mean like the one that says, "Go have a smoke!"? I don't know if I'm talking about intuition or not. Something quiet and steady that occasionally shows itself and says, "Yes". I think most of us have had those moments, but they're so quiet we may have discounted them or turned away. Funny, after reading this, something quiet in my gut showed itself, and said, 'yes'. Yes, B! The fist in the gut that all clenched up with "No". That's exactly where I felt it open up too.
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Post by quinn on Sept 17, 2013 16:03:31 GMT -5
The difference between the two is that the seeker is conscious that they're looking for something that they consider a bit more meaningful, something with more depth than simple happiness. The commonality between the two suggested by the quote is that they are seeking the same thing. Nice. Yeah, I can see that now too. Ramble away!
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Post by quinn on Sept 17, 2013 16:07:01 GMT -5
I haven't got a clue. Many times, in spiritual circles, I've been given the advice to listen to my intuition and my reaction has always been, "What intuition?". If it's some kind of internal voice, there had always been plenty of that, generally dishing out a whole array of weird commands. Oh, you mean like the one that says, "Go have a smoke!"? I don't know if I'm talking about intuition or not. Something quiet and steady that occasionally shows itself and says, "Yes". I think most of us have had those moments, but they're so quiet we may have discounted them or turned away. Intuition is a word I used to use to talk about insights. Now I just lump all insights, great and small, into the category of realization. Partly because unconscious feeling can masquerade as intuition, as you suggest, and partly because I see the 'process' of realization as the same regardless of how powerful or mundane it is. The mother, the scientist, and the spiritual devotee are all having realizations, they just take different forms because the focus of attention is different. I follow you about the insights/realizations thing - makes sense to me. I don't get the lumping intuition into insights. Do you think insights only come from the intuitive...um...place (haha - word fail!)?
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Post by silence on Sept 17, 2013 21:31:20 GMT -5
In a different way it could simply be said that the thought which one sees themselves as being the thinker of, creates a consistent constriction throughout the body and mind. No matter how useful or valuable this movement of thought is seen to be, the underlying suffering that is imposed as a result can never be fully ignored. There becomes a consistent level of tension and unease that underlies all of ones experience. The very same movement of thought that daydreams about the end of this tension is itself the cause and so the whole thing is total insanity. That is all true, but it leaves out another movement. It could be called intuition, although I don't like that word much cause it conjures up thoughts of higher selves or some such thing. But something like intuition, which points away from that tension. It's the fact that you can't truly trick yourself.
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Post by enigma on Sept 18, 2013 9:28:23 GMT -5
Intuition is a word I used to use to talk about insights. Now I just lump all insights, great and small, into the category of realization. Partly because unconscious feeling can masquerade as intuition, as you suggest, and partly because I see the 'process' of realization as the same regardless of how powerful or mundane it is. The mother, the scientist, and the spiritual devotee are all having realizations, they just take different forms because the focus of attention is different. I follow you about the insights/realizations thing - makes sense to me. I don't get the lumping intuition into insights. Do you think insights only come from the intuitive...um...place (haha - word fail!)? Maybe intuition comes from the insight place.
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Post by serpentqueen on Sept 18, 2013 11:51:19 GMT -5
I read it to mean that the everyday life of any fully body/mind-identified Joe Schmoe is just as much a search for the truth as the life of a shaved-head, mountain-dwelling vegan 12-hour-a-day-meditating Zen Monk. How so? Are you saying something similar to what I'm saying - that the impetus is the same? See, it seems to me that life wants to express itself cleanly. In its pure form. And when that expression gets confused or muddied, it creates a dissonance. Dissonance wants to be resolved. Seems like that's a natural movement like water finding its own level. Hmm. I'm not so sure. Expression of life in its pure form includes not just happiness but unhappiness. Not just consciousness but unconsciousness. Not just beauty but ugliness. Not just good but bad. Not just light but dark. Not just right but wrong. On and on... so when you say that expression gets "confused and muddied" are you rejecting the other half of the equation of life? Does dissonance want to be resolved, or is dissonance how life expresses itself? Is it the individual who wants it to be resolved, because the individual doesn't like such suffering to happen to him or her?
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