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Sleep
May 7, 2011 3:50:11 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 7, 2011 3:50:11 GMT -5
How exactly do you fall asleep while attending the actual? It seems to me that every time I go to sleep, it only happens after my mind has wandered past where I can recall it from.
Attempts to cut the chatter at bedtime only seem to cause tingling and numbness of the body, but still a very aware whateverness going on. Do you guys drift off at sleep? If not, could you give me some advice on how to do that?
This is really fairly trivial.... just a random curiosity. But what isn't?
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Sleep
May 7, 2011 21:05:05 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 7, 2011 21:05:05 GMT -5
Nevermind, question eliminated. Figured out that it was a situation where it was believed that I do the falling asleep. Sleep happens, as does everything else. It is not dependent on a me doing it. Sleep just usually isn't noticed happening because there is so much mind nonsense running around.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 0:23:16 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 8, 2011 0:23:16 GMT -5
Attending the actual, or attending thoughts or anything else, requires consciousness, and this is what slips away as sleep approaches. Sleep invites you to surrender attention entirely. The first thing to go is all your personal plans about where your attention should go.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 8:01:15 GMT -5
Post by Portto on May 8, 2011 8:01:15 GMT -5
This is a highly worthy exploration! How exactly do you fall asleep while attending the actual? It seems to me that every time I go to sleep, it only happens after my mind has wandered past where I can recall it from. The change from conscious/reflective awareness to sleep happens only when even the 'illusion of control' is gone. This shows clearly that there's no isolated thought or 'entity' that decides to go to sleep or wake up. As Enigma said, falling asleep happens when there is complete surrender. Regarding 'attending the actual,' we definitely can't fall asleep if we think about it. But if we relax into it, the sandman can pay us a visit. As someone posted here, God comes to visit only when we're not at home. The same is true for sleep.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 10:42:12 GMT -5
Post by lilithz on May 8, 2011 10:42:12 GMT -5
OK, I am not for 'meditation' or 'trying to be in the moment' business. I am just how i am. I do not suppress a 'wandering' mind, but when i wanna be focussed i just am.
Now sleep. this is how i do it. You know in the daytime you will daydream? You just allow yourself to start thinking, seeing images etc? Well that is what drifiting off is. In bed, allow your tenseness to sink as well as you can (somethimes your not aware how tense you can be which doesn't help relaxation). So remind yourself to sink into the pillw. Then dont try and 'be in the moment'---threr is no 'moment'---just daydream and next thing your off....
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 12:18:57 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 8, 2011 12:18:57 GMT -5
I think I can certainly agree with sleep happening the moment I give up trying to pay attention / not pay attention to it. The funny thing is that I always want to start attending the actual as soon as I crawl into bed. It happens frequently throughout the day as well, but to a fairly more impressive degree at night.
If that's the case, and the goal here is to surrender as soon as possible, how come the people who have surrendered aren't constantly asleep? Or maybe that's what dying is, but I'm not even gonna bother going there.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 12:53:59 GMT -5
Post by question on May 8, 2011 12:53:59 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I always want to start attending the actual as soon as I crawl into bed. Me too. I catched myself doing it for at least three reasons. First is because I feel guilty for not having attended the actual during the day and I want to make up for it. Second reason is that I realize that yet another day has passed and I'm still unenlightened and the ATA turns out to be a pathetic attempt to do something about it. Third reason is that the day is finished, there isn't anything left to do and I'm physically/mentally exhausted, which makes it easier to just rest without engaging in goal oriented mind activities.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 12:56:53 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 8, 2011 12:56:53 GMT -5
The "goal", if we're talking about self realization, is not to surrender consciousness. Self realization requires consciousness in order to be noticed. In a way, we could say everybody is 'enlightened' in deep sleep because there is just awareness as subject and no appearance of object, but what we usually mean by enlightenment is the conscious realization of Truth, and this doesn't happen in the absence of consciousness. That conscious attention is required. It's awareness turning attention upon awareness, and this attention is conscious.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 14:52:40 GMT -5
Post by therealfake on May 8, 2011 14:52:40 GMT -5
The "goal", if we're talking about self realization, is not to surrender consciousness. Self realization requires consciousness in order to be noticed. In a way, we could say everybody is 'enlightened' in deep sleep because there is just awareness as subject and no appearance of object, but what we usually mean by enlightenment is the conscious realization of Truth, and this doesn't happen in the absence of consciousness. That conscious attention is required. It's awareness turning attention upon awareness, and this attention is conscious. You know, awareness can't be seen, it can't be felt, or heard, or known, or even imagined and the reason is, it's prior to all that stuff... As you've stated before, the subject, or awareness, can't be made into an object for awareness. So what exactly is 'awareness' going to be 'conscious' of, or 'know', or 'see', in light of the fact 'awareness' is prior to everything and nothing??
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 15:08:47 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 8, 2011 15:08:47 GMT -5
Consciousness, in this case, is a focus of attention. If the focus of attention is on the actual, there's no subject/object relationship, no knowledge about it, no seeing of something. All of this would be mind movement. Abiding in awareness, or as Zen says, non-abidance in mind, isn't the seeing of awareness, it's the being of awareness.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 18:08:09 GMT -5
Post by therealfake on May 8, 2011 18:08:09 GMT -5
Consciousness, in this case, is a focus of attention. If the focus of attention is on the actual, there's no subject/object relationship, no knowledge about it, no seeing of something. All of this would be mind movement. Abiding in awareness, or as Zen says, non-abidance in mind, isn't the seeing of awareness, it's the being of awareness. Well like you say we don't have a choice in the matter... We 'are' the awareness and it's self evident as a sense of presence or aliveness... It can't be examined or even talked about. But as an event or a working through by awareness or enlightenment or consciousness, it doesn't work that way. It's not even something special, it just is. It's 'being' the 'being' and it's the simplicity of that which escapes us. And of course if the mind doesn't think it is that, it's going to start seeking for it... Then the trouble starts.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 18:56:12 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 8, 2011 18:56:12 GMT -5
I do it because I'm a night-owl and my mind is typically less active the closer to sleep time it is. The solitude, quiet, and dim lighting just jive with my personal belief of relaxation.
Okay, I think I gotcha. Lookin' at the glass of the tv screen rather than the program behind it.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 19:10:58 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on May 8, 2011 19:10:58 GMT -5
Consciousness, in this case, is a focus of attention. If the focus of attention is on the actual, there's no subject/object relationship, no knowledge about it, no seeing of something. All of this would be mind movement. Abiding in awareness, or as Zen says, non-abidance in mind, isn't the seeing of awareness, it's the being of awareness. Well stated. As for ATA prior to sleep, Question mentions several suitable reasons why one might do this at bedtime (I suppose even guilt is okay as a precipitating factor in the sense of "better guilt than nothing"-- ha ha). Ironically, ATA triggers what MD's call "the relaxation response," so it often speeds up the process of falling asleep. This is why Zen folks tell beginning meditators not to meditate lying down. Their meditation is likely to end fairly quickly. LOL TRF: I'm not sure what you were saying in your last post. What we call "satori" in Zen is the embodied realization that the past sense of selfhood was imaginary. It is a realization that the entire thought structure supporting selfhood has become absent or been seen through. It is an "aha!" moment that most people describe as subtle compared to experiences with "bells and whistles." This realization is what ends the spiritual search for most people. It can be summarized in a statement like this: "Prior to this moment I thought I was a separate entity searching for the truth, but now I see that I AM the truth. I AM "what is. There is nothing separate from what I AM. I am THIS!" Someone can intellectually understand that oneness is all there is, but there is no power of freedom in it. There is still a structure of thought that supports the sense of being a separate entity. There is still a subject/object dichotomy that is viscerally felt. The realization that leads to freedom occurs when the whole intellectual house of cards totally collapses. How this happens is a mystery, but I suspect it results from (1) prolonged non-conceptual awareness (2) substantially abiding in presence (3) interacting with the world directly more often than through thoughts, (4) ceasing to think about oneself as a separate entity, (5) ceasing to "check" one's state of mind, and (6) becoming a person of action. In effect, I suspect that the collapse of the thought structure supporting a sense of selfhood, or enlightenment, occurs as a result of consciously living in the zone until the zone is all that remains. By the time such a realization occurs, it is likely that there is already substantial non-abidance in the mind, and realization simply removes the last remaining intellectual obstacle to freedom.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 21:52:43 GMT -5
Post by enigma on May 8, 2011 21:52:43 GMT -5
"Okay, I think I gotcha. Lookin' at the glass of the tv screen rather than the program behind it."
Yeah, sorta kinda, though it's more like noticing the noticer of the screen.
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Sleep
May 8, 2011 22:00:56 GMT -5
Post by mamza on May 8, 2011 22:00:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of how it would be if I was the tv itself. Noticing the noticer is a much easier way of saying it.
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