fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Aug 4, 2009 15:02:58 GMT -5
Alpha,
So what has changed since you travelled all those roads and finally realized that what you were looking for was travelling with you the whole time.
Does it bring it any closer? Do you feel like you are making progress now?
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Post by alpha on Aug 4, 2009 19:23:40 GMT -5
Alpha, So what has changed since you travelled all those roads and finally realized that what you were looking for was travelling with you the whole time. Does it bring it any closer? Do you feel like you are making progress now? Hi fear,Thanks for response, Im glad you dident say "theres no road" as my whole life is invested in this journey, Ive had many "mini breakthroughs" that helped better understanding, but there was a small shift in consciousness in that I now see everything as "outside",There was always conflict between "inside," thoughts,mind, e.t.c. and "outside"the world,people,e.t.c. nothing has changed in the sense that every thing including conflict, sometimes, is still there, but its not a problem as its all "outside" and therefore much easier to look at. I asked the question " Who is doing the looking?" but thats a trick question,is it not, like a magician asking "wheres the ace of spades", the answer will lead to a lesser state... Sometimes I feel enlightenment is close, hiding just above the lower frequency of recognition, even though Ive known fear that left me unable to speak when I was young, I still wasent able to face the fear of the unknown which I believe was enlightenment, on two different occasions,If this ever comes around again,and I believe it will, I will do my part...
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 7, 2009 11:26:13 GMT -5
That's a good point vacant, Apologies for the delayed response. I was called out of town for a week. I would say that because it is already feeling like something separate, then the only way to find the real relationship to it is by openly and innocently exploring it. Then the truth can be found. So it's important not to dismiss that feeling of separateness from it as "not true", as that can easily just become another belief or assumption. It has to be found for you for real, and so acknowledging it feels separate can be valuable, just as openness to the possibility that there is more of a connection than is immediately obvious is also of great value. Does that make sense? LM, your response here to Alpha comes as a useful continuation to what you last posted on the "importance of a teacher" thread. Taking your advice I've been engaging in a more intimate "conversation", I enjoy the sense of progress in that direction, but I also worry that by treating It as a person I reinforce the separateness. Silly? Mental garbage?
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 7, 2009 11:31:38 GMT -5
Very nice alpha, For what it's worth, I felt the same way as you, but what I found was that the process was actually reversed. I actually had to accept that I WAS that unknown I was so concerned about confronting, and then things started to shift. From that level of safety, THEN I could start to be the fear that would just be too scary otherwise. After all, an individual CANNOT face it's own annihilation - it can only realize that it's not the whole story. You are not really that individual - at least not in a limited sense. You are more than that. You are that Deep Unknown. You always have been. That recognition provided the level of safety to really examine these intense feelings. I don't feel like it would have been possible otherwise. It's possible that you're path could be different, but it's something that might be worth considering and looked into, as I have met many that have shared the same expectation as you (including me of course) and have yet had it work closer to what happened with me. Anyway, let me know what you think. Can you perhaps look into seeing if you ARE what that unknown is, instead of feeling like you, as a separate individual, have to face it? Hi fear,Thanks for response, Im glad you dident say "theres no road" as my whole life is invested in this journey, Ive had many "mini breakthroughs" that helped better understanding, but there was a small shift in consciousness in that I now see everything as "outside",There was always conflict between "inside," thoughts,mind, e.t.c. and "outside"the world,people,e.t.c. nothing has changed in the sense that every thing including conflict, sometimes, is still there, but its not a problem as its all "outside" and therefore much easier to look at. I asked the question " Who is doing the looking?" but thats a trick question,is it not, like a magician asking "wheres the ace of spades", the answer will lead to a lesser state... Sometimes I feel enlightenment is close, hiding just above the lower frequency of recognition, even though Ive known fear that left me unable to speak when I was young, I still wasent able to face the fear of the unknown which I believe was enlightenment, on two different occasions,If this ever comes around again,and I believe it will, I will do my part...
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 11, 2009 9:46:20 GMT -5
Glad to hear it. The process of diving into the unknown can be incredibly useful in terms of getting more intimate with it. It can often help it become more and more of an ongoing Presence in a very direct way. Thanks for help LM, I waited for a few days to see if the focus would shift from "confronting" to "being the unknown" and I must say its a much better feeling, "you are the deep unknown" was the most powerful thing I got from your helpful advice, this affirmation seems to really suit me,especially during meditation when I begin with "NOW I am the deep unknown" Then after some time the words seem to drop off one by one until all is left is "unknown", Something responds to this but I can only glimpse it yet, Perhaps later I will see it more clearly...
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Post by souley on Sept 22, 2009 4:19:39 GMT -5
A few days ago I woke up with a feeling that I have not had in years. I tried to relate it to some memories, and suddenly I remembered all kinds of things from my childhood. It must be at least ten or fifteen years until the latest memory, perhaps longer. It is the feeling of the first free summer days, or the feeling of a day of newly fallen snow walking in the woods with the family, and everything is completely silent yet incredibly alive. So peaceful, yet so alive, and just perfect and loving. It sounds kind of silly, but is the exact same feeling. I had no clue as of now that this kind of feeling existed, but it could not be more familiar. I don't know what it is. I try to find words for it but it is too self-evident to be put into words.
Since that morning the feeling has pretty much just intensified. I'm noticing that it is closely related to love. I have begun to see what love really seems to be. When I give myself completely away, I don't know to what or who or anything, and by give I don't mean to actually give something, or do something, it is more like I give away my being, unconditionally. Then it is love. Love is not the reward for that "good behaviour". It is not love that makes you give. That kind of giving IS love itself, and I don't know how to do it, it just happened. I am grateful in a way that I cannot express, it is just incredible, yet totally normal. I found myself at times with a tear in my eye. I have also had some problems with my partner, and have cried again in that context. Something just seems to have been released.
I'm not sure in what way this relates to enlightenment at all. I don't feel that "I'm gone" or anything like that. Diminished perhaps.. don't really know. And it does not seem I care. But I do know that I don't know. I don't know anything about what this is, what is going to happen, who I am, what my life is, and I just don't seem to put much emphasis on that. What IS is everything in comparison. I think my trust in love and creation will just continue to grow to infinity. Or not, I don't know.
That we all walk around with a feeling of lack could not be more right. If this is the experience of childhood, then my god of course we can't figure stuff out later when it is gone. I had no clue in my spiritual search that something like this was "possible". I had no memory of feeling this way, and no ideas of anything like it.
I just wanted to share this. A funny thing is also that I've been at home, stuck in bed in a cold, on my birthday. But it seems totally perfect like that. But I do have some work to do.. oh well!!
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Post by lightmystic on Sept 22, 2009 9:45:35 GMT -5
Happy Birthday souley! Yeah, I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of spontaneous letting go in childhood that just doesn't have the ability to integrate yet. So when we start to let go permanently, there is usually a revisiting of these different feelings so we can have them all the time. I've definitely had a lot of that over the years. It was actually a revisiting on that level that made me remember entering the womb, just in the same way these old childhood feelings come back.... Thanks for sharing.
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Post by souley on Sept 26, 2009 16:46:38 GMT -5
Hey LM, I think what you refer to as awakening (as opposed to enlightenment) has kind of happened to me now. I was in some way seeing resistances associated with some kind of feeling of "I" very clearly these last few days. Like if some resistance comes up, I could very well observe the attachment to it. And the attachment is the feeling of the I. As I noticed this pretty clearly, it got more and more intense and it was like a battle where attachment tried to get a hold and another part of me just saw it for what it was and pushed it aside. And this just kept going on. At some point it just got a bit much, and I was like "what a total head case I am, this is some ¤%#¤# s h i t". Then I froze for a second, and the feeling of attachment kind of just fell off.
Now I'm walking around missing a piece. There still seems to be a lot of resistance, but it does not manifest as thought, and it almost comes as purely physical. It actually feels pretty strange not to have this attachment, I can see how a lot of our sense of self is so attached to this. It's like "who's walking around?", the old sense of self is so diminished I don't know what to make of myself:) It seems it makes it a lot easier to explore and as you say check the relation of me to everything else.
And what I consider pretty great is that it is all so ordinary.
But in a more meditative mode I can experience pretty strange "cosmic body" stuff. It's like I'm expanding somehow, if I don't stop the meditation. But this seems to bring out a lot of resistance, or I don't know what to call it, maybe it is resistance in it's purest form but it almost physically hurts:)
Any comments on this would be very interesting!
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Post by Zendancer1 on Sept 27, 2009 9:14:59 GMT -5
Souley: The body/mind connection is very strange, and all kinds of weird things happen to people on this path. During meditation all kinds of phenomena occur, but the best advice is to simply watch what happens without getting attached to it or assigning too much significance to it. People sometimes reexperience past events, see unusual visual phenomena, have fears arise from the subconscious, etc., but who is the watcher? Who or what is it that sees all this stuff happening? Keep this question lightly in the background.
As an example of how energy flow can cause bizarre effects, one time twenty years I engaged in dharma combat with a Zen teacher during an interview and got soundly defeated. My psyche and ego was somehow assaulted by this experience and it virtually paralyzed my mind. I left the retreat and started driving home, but could not think of anything but the verbal exhange. I barely slept that night and the next day it felt as if steel bands were constricting my chest. I ate breakfast and started driving toward a project and felt worse and worse. It was as if I had swallowed a hot ball of lead that I couldn't cough up or get down. I mean I felt horrible! I knew that it was some kind of psycho-physical process, but that didn't help. The intensity of the thing grew almost intolerable and then....it was as if a balloon had been punctured. The steel bands on my chest fell away and I went totally empty. I suddenly realized what I should have said during the interview and I saw through the entire exchange. I had been so arrogant during the intereview that I had been unwilling to admit when I got lost in the verbal battle. I got very emotional and was totally humbled by the experience. I sat in my truck for thirty minutes before I was able to go back to work. This is a small example of what can happen on this path. We all have what might be called electro-chemical structures in the brain that have resulted from our life experiences and our thoughts. As we meditate or change our habits of mind from thoughts to direct experience, these structures and the energy flows of the body are affected.
At one time I was at a talk where Gangaji told a lady that her confusion and sense of physical unease was being caused by a "collapsing of the structures of thought," and that it was a wonderful sign. Zen calls these psycho-physical events "makyo" and tells people to simply watch them like a distant spectator. They eventually dissipate as one gets clearer and clearer. In a sense they are confirmatory signs that the mind is going into deeper regions, below the level of reflective thought. I hope this offers a bit of insight. Cheers.
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Post by vacant on Sept 27, 2009 11:13:01 GMT -5
Souley, I have too little expertise to pass valuable comments here, but glad to see that the cage is being rattled! ZenD, very interesting... What on earth is dharma combat?
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anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Sept 27, 2009 13:56:49 GMT -5
ZenD,
You've given a good example of how suffering can fit into the spiritual journey. When there is mental conflict, the body will hold that conflict as tension. As long as the ego does not get involved, it will resolve on its own. Problems happen when the ego refuses to let go and let the conflict resolve. When that happens, we are stuck in a painful situation that can cause much suffering. This is also the basis for many somatic conditions that have no apparent diagnosis - the body will become run-down maintaining the conflict and many symptoms will present. Your example is one where the ego did not hold on, and subsequently the body let go of the conflict on its own. In that manner we can grow spiritually.
-- anon
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Post by Zendancer1 on Sept 27, 2009 14:26:08 GMT -5
Vacant: Dharma combat is verbal sparring in which one tests one's level of understanding. In some Zen traditions this is common in face-to-face interviews. The student challenges a teacher and tests his/her ability to stay at the level of the teacher. If two people are at the same level, it will often end in a stalemate. If the student has a lesser degree of understanding, the teacher can sometimes score a knockout punch. If nothing else, the student can sort of figure out what areas remain unclear. In general, the less attached to thought one is, the more one can see through issues and understand what to do or say. It can be fun and sometimes leads to outrageous results.
In the case to which I referred, I was on a Zen three day silent retreat. On the night of the second day I had a big breakthrough, but in my euphoria I thought I understood more than I did. the following morning I went to an interview with the teacher. Instead of entering the room, going through the formal bows, and seating myself on the mat in front of the teacher, I walked in, grabbed the cushion from in front of the teacher, set it down across the room, took my seat facing the wall at the end of the room, and demanded "Is this the True Way?" I thought I understood the true way and I thought I knew what the teacher would say. I was wrong. The teacher simply said, "You tell me. Is that the true way?" His words totally paralyzed my mind, and I became frozen. It was as if my mind was a motor that had been suddenly knocked out of gear. Because I remained silent, the teacher much more forcefully demanded, "Is that the True Way?" I was too proud to aqcknowledge that didn;t know how to answer or what to do, so I replied, "If it isn't the True Way, then show me what is." Whoa, talk about feeling stupid! I was in a state of suspended animation, but the teacher wasn't. He jumped from where he was sitting, and hit me in the shoulder with his Zen stick. He then returned to his seat. I was still paralyzed, unable to process a single thought, so he rang his bell, indicating that the interview was over. I was in such a daze, that it took awhile before I even connected the sound of the bell with what it meant. When I did, I turned around, put the cushion back in its normal place, went through the exit bows, and left the room. I felt like someone who has been knocked senseless in a boxing match. For the remainder of the retreat I simply stayed in a state of shock. I could not understand what had gone wrong. I had had a huge insight prior to the interview, and I had realized that what we call "meaning" is nothing more than a head trip--something that we project upon the world. However, I had not taken the next step and realized that there is a difference between the concept of meaning and absolute meaning. One is through the head and the other is through the body. There were also some other aspects of the issue that remained unclear. I had felt so confident that I had decided to challenge the teacher, but his response put me into a psycho-physical strait jacket. I only saw through the issue a day later and realized how I should have responded to his response. It would have required more humility than I could have exhibited at the time. After I saw through the issue, I felt enormous gratitude that the teacher had been good enough to know exactly how to respond to my premature challenge.
This is an example of Dharma combat. Sometimes there is a winner and sometimes there isn't. If you are lucky enough to be around someone with a deep level of understanding, you may find yourself at some point testing his or her understanding. Good luck. LOL.
ZD
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Post by souley on Sept 27, 2009 15:49:30 GMT -5
Yeah I have since long tried to let all this tension-sensation or what to call it simply be, for me it seems to be enormously transforming. It is like I embrace it as fully as I can, and eventually it resolves. I think it is pretty easy to handle when it have reached this level where it is almost physical. It is worse when resistance still manifests at the level of mind, as thoughts or judgement. It can then be hard to see through and "get to the bottom of it". When I feel uneasy about anything mentally I usually try to remain silent and let it play out, and then it often becomes a more physical form of resistance which I can embrace.
As it is now it seems I very actively look for resistance everywhere so I can apply this indirect kind of practice on it, I don't know what it does really but I'm at least sure that I want to live a life that I do not resist on any level:)
I have been meaning to ask you ZD, how one would "work on a koan" as you call it? My curiosity surely has some questions.. but I have no experience of asking questions in this way.
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Post by Peter on Sept 28, 2009 5:58:29 GMT -5
I was on a Zen three day silent retreat. On the night of the second day I had a big breakthrough, but in my euphoria I thought I understood more than I did. the following morning I went to an interview with the teacher. Great story, thanks for sharing! Sounds like Zen sparring is very similar to wrestling in that you have to have a very strong connection with the ground to best knock your opponent off balance. I wonder how much of your interview was conducted at an energetic level, rather than purely verbal. I had a similar over-confidence after a deep (for me!) insight, and had a teacher attempt to burst my bubble. Unfortunately I interpretted this as one enlightened mind testing another and floated out of the interview, to burst a little further down the road... I only saw through the issue a day later and realized how I should have responded to his response. And how should you have responded to him?
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Post by Zendancer1 on Sept 28, 2009 8:57:56 GMT -5
Peter: I should have got up, put the cushion back in front of the teacher, sat down facing him, and said something like, "I had a big breakthrough last night, and thought I understood more than I did, but your question showed me that I have lots more to learn, so please continue teaching me." I was unable to do this because I had too much pride to admit defeat. Like you, I thought I had reached the level of Zen Masters, not realizing that I still had a big ego, and it was my ego that had been assaulted in the interview exchange. Later, I learned that there are two koans that deal with "the True Way," but when I went into the interview I was a solid mass of thoughts, and could never have seen how simple the issue is. This is not to deny how powerful the experience was that triggered my confrontation. I had seen through a lot of issues, but there was still a big "me" trying to take credit for it. I had actually considered walking into the meditation room, sitting down with the other twenty retreatants, and then standing up, walking up to the altar, and kicking the Buddha statue out the door. I was sure that the Zen Master would recognize my attainment (LOL), but after further reflection I decided to confront the teacher in the privacy of the interview room. (Thank goodness!)
Souley: You "work" on a koan by focusing your attention on the issue and the question. At first the question is purely verbal, but it quickly drops to a non-verbal level of mind. You can either work on a question directly, as above, or you can hold the question in mind for a while and then revert to breath awareness and allow the body to work on the question while doing nothing but watching the breath. After doing a bit of koan study, we quickly realize that the intellect is useless, so we learn how to access a deeper part of the mind/body. After a while, we learn to trust the body's innate intelligence. No matter what issues arise, our body already knows what to do, but most of us are so disconnected from reality that we don't consciously know what to do. Imagine that you have a conflict with your significant other or a close relative. If you don't know how to respond, you can sit down, focus your mind on the issue, ask yourself what you need to do, and then become silent. You are simply bearing the question in mind without trying to logically solve it. Your mind will sink to a sufficiently deep level where the answer already resides and after a few hours, or a day or so, you will have a sudden insight into the issue, and you will know what to do. You will have "listened" to the "still small voice within." The more we stay focused on direct experience, the more we get in touch with the truth of who and what we are. We become more and more grounded in reality and less and less disturbed by the events happening around us. Cheers.
BTW, do you have any idea how I can get a laptop computer to let me log in on this site? When I try to log in, the site ignores me, and I have to go through the guest procedure for posting anything. TIA
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