anonji
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by anonji on Sept 28, 2009 10:03:17 GMT -5
BTW, do you have any idea how I can get a laptop computer to let me log in on this site? When I try to log in, the site ignores me, and I have to go through the guest procedure for posting anything. TIA There's a good chance that cookies are not enabled. That would likely prevent the login from sticking. Not sure what browser you are using, but you will find the settings in Internet Options, usually under Tools.. Look for cookie options and turn them on for this site, or turn them on globally.
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Post by Peter on Sept 28, 2009 10:07:14 GMT -5
BTW, do you have any idea how I can get a laptop computer to let me log in on this site? When I try to log in, the site ignores me, and I have to go through the guest procedure for posting anything. TIA What Operating System and Browser are you using on the laptop? Could you try something else, like Firefox? The most obvious reason would be because some security setting on your laptop is causing your browser to reject/ignore cookies, so there's no way for the website to identify you across any two page submissions. In Firefox check Tools | Options | Privacy | Accept cookies from sites should be ticked. Similar for Internet Exploder: Tools | Internet Options | Privacy | Edit and then add spiritualteachers.proboards.com to the list of allowed cookie suppliers. If you've got something else, hopefully someone else will know, or it'll have similar enough settings for you to figure it out yourself. Cheers, Peter EDIT: Snap! Got pulled into a work discussion there and missed anonji's post.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 28, 2009 10:09:47 GMT -5
Peter & Anonji: Thanks. I'm using our hotel's computer, but when I get back to my laptop, I'll edit the security settings per your advice. I had forgotten how to do that.
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Post by lightmystic on Sept 28, 2009 10:25:08 GMT -5
Very nice! Sounds like things are unraveling quite nicely. ZD probably could give you the official answer better than me, but the way working on koans seems to work for me is to feel into them. They are all referring to the same thing, the same being....if you can see the pointing that is going on, then the "answer" is obvious. I'm joking though, because there's not really a verbal answer. It's not that kind of question. Yeah I have since long tried to let all this tension-sensation or what to call it simply be, for me it seems to be enormously transforming. It is like I embrace it as fully as I can, and eventually it resolves. I think it is pretty easy to handle when it have reached this level where it is almost physical. It is worse when resistance still manifests at the level of mind, as thoughts or judgement. It can then be hard to see through and "get to the bottom of it". When I feel uneasy about anything mentally I usually try to remain silent and let it play out, and then it often becomes a more physical form of resistance which I can embrace. As it is now it seems I very actively look for resistance everywhere so I can apply this indirect kind of practice on it, I don't know what it does really but I'm at least sure that I want to live a life that I do not resist on any level:) I have been meaning to ask you ZD, how one would "work on a koan" as you call it? My curiosity surely has some questions.. but I have no experience of asking questions in this way.
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Post by lightmystic on Sept 28, 2009 10:34:17 GMT -5
Wow! I didn't know there was a name for dharma combat! I love that! It's the only game where the only thing more fun and awesome than knocking out your opponent is being knocked out yourself! There are truly few things I enjoy more than dharma combat with a fighter who wants to grow as much as I do. But it's very hard to find people to fight these days! People take the fight too personally for it to be comfortable and enjoyable. I mean, you don't have to use harsh words to do dharma combat. What could be more fun? Also, great story. I definitely do not have the gift of story telling that you have. That's why I tend to just go on my current experience. It's the only thing I can say that makes any sense. Although I'm not meaning to imply that I ever make any sense. Vacant: Dharma combat is verbal sparring in which one tests one's level of understanding. In some Zen traditions this is common in face-to-face interviews. The student challenges a teacher and tests his/her ability to stay at the level of the teacher. If two people are at the same level, it will often end in a stalemate. If the student has a lesser degree of understanding, the teacher can sometimes score a knockout punch. If nothing else, the student can sort of figure out what areas remain unclear. In general, the less attached to thought one is, the more one can see through issues and understand what to do or say. It can be fun and sometimes leads to outrageous results. In the case to which I referred, I was on a Zen three day silent retreat. On the night of the second day I had a big breakthrough, but in my euphoria I thought I understood more than I did. the following morning I went to an interview with the teacher. Instead of entering the room, going through the formal bows, and seating myself on the mat in front of the teacher, I walked in, grabbed the cushion from in front of the teacher, set it down across the room, took my seat facing the wall at the end of the room, and demanded "Is this the True Way?" I thought I understood the true way and I thought I knew what the teacher would say. I was wrong. The teacher simply said, "You tell me. Is that the true way?" His words totally paralyzed my mind, and I became frozen. It was as if my mind was a motor that had been suddenly knocked out of gear. Because I remained silent, the teacher much more forcefully demanded, "Is that the True Way?" I was too proud to aqcknowledge that didn;t know how to answer or what to do, so I replied, "If it isn't the True Way, then show me what is." Whoa, talk about feeling stupid! I was in a state of suspended animation, but the teacher wasn't. He jumped from where he was sitting, and hit me in the shoulder with his Zen stick. He then returned to his seat. I was still paralyzed, unable to process a single thought, so he rang his bell, indicating that the interview was over. I was in such a daze, that it took awhile before I even connected the sound of the bell with what it meant. When I did, I turned around, put the cushion back in its normal place, went through the exit bows, and left the room. I felt like someone who has been knocked senseless in a boxing match. For the remainder of the retreat I simply stayed in a state of shock. I could not understand what had gone wrong. I had had a huge insight prior to the interview, and I had realized that what we call "meaning" is nothing more than a head trip--something that we project upon the world. However, I had not taken the next step and realized that there is a difference between the concept of meaning and absolute meaning. One is through the head and the other is through the body. There were also some other aspects of the issue that remained unclear. I had felt so confident that I had decided to challenge the teacher, but his response put me into a psycho-physical strait jacket. I only saw through the issue a day later and realized how I should have responded to his response. It would have required more humility than I could have exhibited at the time. After I saw through the issue, I felt enormous gratitude that the teacher had been good enough to know exactly how to respond to my premature challenge. This is an example of Dharma combat. Sometimes there is a winner and sometimes there isn't. If you are lucky enough to be around someone with a deep level of understanding, you may find yourself at some point testing his or her understanding. Good luck. LOL. ZD
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Post by dramos on Sept 28, 2009 10:51:13 GMT -5
ZenD,
That was a great experience and thanks for sharing. Forgive me but as I was reading I pictured something else and I found some humour.
As I was reading your experience I was picturing a child that had been put to bed. While in it's bed the "thought" came that, 'I don't think it is time to go to bed', the child then proceeded to go to the mother to express this thought. The mother enjoying the stillness of her moment replies to the child, "oh but I believe it is". The child then proceeds with a rebuttal, "No, it is not time, I know when the time will be for me to go to bed". The mother then spanks the child, the child cries not only because his ego was hurt but it's bottom hurt as well, then goes to bed crying, throwing tantrums until he falls to sleep...stillness.
A few things happened here...."physical thought" interrupted the stillness, which the physical senses kicked in gear to take action, when approaching the mother, the mother already knew what was happening because she could see how the physical body was reacting to this "thought". Listened to what that thought was from the child and responded in the same way she was being approached. Two things happened with the physical spanking. One it bruised the ego and too the physical contact helped make aware of the physical thought.
Spiritual Peace is of Stillness, physical thought takes action. There are no thoughts within Spirit it just IS.
Again thanks for sharing, each one of us goes through similar experiences, they are teaching tools to help better understand what being of Spirit IS.
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Post by souley on Sept 28, 2009 11:43:41 GMT -5
Souley: You "work" on a koan by focusing your attention on the issue and the question. At first the question is purely verbal, but it quickly drops to a non-verbal level of mind. You can either work on a question directly, as above, or you can hold the question in mind for a while and then revert to breath awareness and allow the body to work on the question while doing nothing but watching the breath. After doing a bit of koan study, we quickly realize that the intellect is useless, so we learn how to access a deeper part of the mind/body. After a while, we learn to trust the body's innate intelligence. No matter what issues arise, our body already knows what to do, but most of us are so disconnected from reality that we don't consciously know what to do. Imagine that you have a conflict with your significant other or a close relative. If you don't know how to respond, you can sit down, focus your mind on the issue, ask yourself what you need to do, and then become silent. You are simply bearing the question in mind without trying to logically solve it. Your mind will sink to a sufficiently deep level where the answer already resides and after a few hours, or a day or so, you will have a sudden insight into the issue, and you will know what to do. You will have "listened" to the "still small voice within." The more we stay focused on direct experience, the more we get in touch with the truth of who and what we are. We become more and more grounded in reality and less and less disturbed by the events happening around us. Cheers. Sounds good. The relationship example is great, the intellect or the train-of-thought-logic simply cannot handle that complexity. Feeling into it is the rule for me in these situations. Thought can kind of trick you, but if you feel into it a bit it you just kind of know what you have to do. Mind says: "She was wrong because of this and this in this", gut says "Just hug her". But it seems pretty far out to do it with the koans since they are really strange. I'll make sure to practice it a bit! And like everyone else I love your stories. LM: Thanks, yeah my experience seems kind of textbook according to the way you "teach".
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Post by zendancer on Sept 28, 2009 14:33:32 GMT -5
Souley, LM, Dramos, et al: Yes, each person is unique and that is why each person has to learn to trust their own process on the path to truth. Whatever works for one person may not work for another, but it doesn't hurt to hear a wide range of stories and suggestions. As we get more focused on direct experience, we tend to become action-oriented and not as reflective. This makes life a lot simpler. In some ways this path is from adult cleverness to childlike innocence, and it helps a lot if you can laugh at yourself. It can also be a lot of fun. At a certain point you can start playing with other people and testing their understanding as well as your own. I was climbing a rock bluff one day with a teacher in a Zen tradition. After we got to the top, we were sitting there when suddenly this guy snapped his fingers in front of my face and said, "What is this?" I instantly responded in an appropriate manner, and we both laughed. He was just checking me, and later I did the same thing to him. One time I decided to check Zen Master Seung Sahn even though I knew he was way beyond me. I found an animal skull and placed it on the altar beside the Buddha just to see what he would do. I thought that he might ask who put the skull there. I was going to raise my hand and say that I did. I assumed his next question would be, "Why did you do that?" I was going to say, "Well, everything else on the altar is dead; why not add one more dead thing?" I had no idea where the Dharma combat would go from there, but I was dying to find out. Unfortunately, the head dharma teacher spotted the skull at the last moment and swept it under the curtains before ZMSS could see it. Too bad. I would probably have been wiped out, but it would have been fun to see how ZMSS would have done it. (LOL)
Looking back, the sequence I went through on my path (ignoring all the little insights) was something like this:
1. First big experience: Saw through the illusion of "thingness," and realized that the universe is alive and whole. Zen people call this "passing through the gateless gate." 2. Second big experience: Saw through the illusion of "meaning." 3. Third big experience: Saw through the illusion of "purpose." 4. Fourth big experience: Saw through my fantasies about the future, and began to accept that the truth only existed in the present moment. This changed my focus from ideas of "running away to a mountaintop" to accepting the reality of what was happening in the here and now. Simultaneously, "shoulds" and "oughts" dropped away. 5.) Fifth big experience: After reading Suzanne Segal's book seven times, I internalized what she was saying, and realized that selfhood was a fiction and that the world which I perceived had to be the real me. This also worried me because I saw that there was nothing I could do that would guarantee my waking up. (Notice that I was still laboring under the illusion that there was a me who needed to wake up). 6. Sixth big experience: The intellectual understanding became internalized in some mysterious way and I saw that there had never been a "me." I saw through the illusion of my past identity and realized that my entire search had been based upon a false sense of who I was. That is when my search finally ended.
For someone else, the sequence might be different, and that's one of the fun things about this website. We get to hear from people with lots of different experiences and different ways of seeing and reacting to things. Over the last fifteen years of my search I did so many stupid and hilarious things that I have a lot more funny stories to share when I get time to write them down.
As for the koans, they're fun to play with, and they can have value for many people, but they are certainly not essential. Most of us encounter a wide range of daily issues needing resolution. Learning that we can trust ourselves at the deepest level is a big help. Cheers.
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Post by souley on Sept 28, 2009 14:58:44 GMT -5
Most of us encounter a wide range of daily issues needing resolution. Learning that we can trust ourselves at the deepest level is a big help. Cheers. Yes, the everyday life with its problems have a good way of stirring things up. I have also been dreaming about just sitting in a cabin somewhere "getting to it". But I think it would rather be less effective and very frustrating, at least for me. I need to run into some doors to see what I'm unconsciously resisting. And work, family, people etc provide lots of opportunities. And I love many of those people as well so I hope my intellectual understanding will integrate as well as yours. Thanks!
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Post by lightmystic on Sept 29, 2009 10:07:24 GMT -5
Agreed. Very interesting to hear your progression. Kind of inspires me to post mine when I have time...After all, I keep asking about everyone else's experience, and it's been a while since I shared what's been going on with me. It would also be nice to lay out the progression, since it fascinates me... Souley, LM, Dramos, et al: Yes, each person is unique and that is why each person has to learn to trust their own process on the path to truth. Whatever works for one person may not work for another, but it doesn't hurt to hear a wide range of stories and suggestions. As we get more focused on direct experience, we tend to become action-oriented and not as reflective. This makes life a lot simpler. In some ways this path is from adult cleverness to childlike innocence, and it helps a lot if you can laugh at yourself. It can also be a lot of fun. At a certain point you can start playing with other people and testing their understanding as well as your own. I was climbing a rock bluff one day with a teacher in a Zen tradition. After we got to the top, we were sitting there when suddenly this guy snapped his fingers in front of my face and said, "What is this?" I instantly responded in an appropriate manner, and we both laughed. He was just checking me, and later I did the same thing to him. One time I decided to check Zen Master Seung Sahn even though I knew he was way beyond me. I found an animal skull and placed it on the altar beside the Buddha just to see what he would do. I thought that he might ask who put the skull there. I was going to raise my hand and say that I did. I assumed his next question would be, "Why did you do that?" I was going to say, "Well, everything else on the altar is dead; why not add one more dead thing?" I had no idea where the Dharma combat would go from there, but I was dying to find out. Unfortunately, the head dharma teacher spotted the skull at the last moment and swept it under the curtains before ZMSS could see it. Too bad. I would probably have been wiped out, but it would have been fun to see how ZMSS would have done it. (LOL) Looking back, the sequence I went through on my path (ignoring all the little insights) was something like this: 1. First big experience: Saw through the illusion of "thingness," and realized that the universe is alive and whole. Zen people call this "passing through the gateless gate." 2. Second big experience: Saw through the illusion of "meaning." 3. Third big experience: Saw through the illusion of "purpose." 4. Fourth big experience: Saw through my fantasies about the future, and began to accept that the truth only existed in the present moment. This changed my focus from ideas of "running away to a mountaintop" to accepting the reality of what was happening in the here and now. Simultaneously, "shoulds" and "oughts" dropped away. 5.) Fifth big experience: After reading Suzanne Segal's book seven times, I internalized what she was saying, and realized that selfhood was a fiction and that the world which I perceived had to be the real me. This also worried me because I saw that there was nothing I could do that would guarantee my waking up. (Notice that I was still laboring under the illusion that there was a me who needed to wake up). 6. Sixth big experience: The intellectual understanding became internalized in some mysterious way and I saw that there had never been a "me." I saw through the illusion of my past identity and realized that my entire search had been based upon a false sense of who I was. That is when my search finally ended. For someone else, the sequence might be different, and that's one of the fun things about this website. We get to hear from people with lots of different experiences and different ways of seeing and reacting to things. Over the last fifteen years of my search I did so many stupid and hilarious things that I have a lot more funny stories to share when I get time to write them down. As for the koans, they're fun to play with, and they can have value for many people, but they are certainly not essential. Most of us encounter a wide range of daily issues needing resolution. Learning that we can trust ourselves at the deepest level is a big help. Cheers.
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Post by teetown on Dec 30, 2010 20:28:58 GMT -5
Souley I found your reports in this thread very helpful. I feel like I'm somewhere close to where you were in your first posts. Thanks.
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Post by souley on Jan 3, 2011 2:17:39 GMT -5
Souley I found your reports in this thread very helpful. I feel like I'm somewhere close to where you were in your first posts. Thanks. Hey, very happy that it can be of some use! If you are in the same place that I was you may be in for quite a ride! "I" am not enlightened, not that I exist, but _____ as we speak of here on this forum has not happened. Yet with these posts in this thread, and in the year after the last post, some stuff has indeed happened. Basically with my firsts posts in this thread, I was just the regular "collective trance" guy, looking for self improvement, meaning, etc. This enlightenment business was one of these projects. Being used to strive for stuff, I was practicing awareness/presence, watching my emotions and thoughts etc quite a lot throughout each day. After like half a year, I had like 2-3 experiences as mentioned in these posts. One was very very clear. A positive experience where the whole structure of "I" as we think of disappeared for only a few seconds. After this, I wanted more and got pretty dedicated to this stuff. For some reason I never mentioned it in this thread, but I flew over to a seminar with Tony Parsons. The seminar was fun and interesting, but nothing really special happened.. I thought. About a day after that, it somehow dawned on me that this world is not at all what I thought it was. My own awareness, the small experiences, and Tony somehow came together and "The great unlearning" or what to call it just suddenly begun, like that. Physically I was now somewhere in between what I previously thought to be, and some kind of mysterious consciousness. I really did not know who or what I was anymore. The thought structures continued in I mode, but it was like physically I could not really tell anymore. Previously my body ended where my feet ended, but now I could really not tell where it ended any more. At the same time it was like all protection from subconscious emotion just went away. While I previously got irritated and projected my feelings onto others or things, I instead experienced my emotions more directly. All of this resulted in terrible fear. Fear of death, fear of insanity, fear of non existence. Some of it logical fear, but mostly just gut level release of fear. Want to get enlightened? try facing your fear of death.. kind of. And as fear came out like this, I got less scared of worldly things like heights, social situations etc. A part of "me" just fell off as more and more fear was released. The first few weeks like this were really terrible. After that it got a bit better, a bit more stable. But I could still get waves of intense fear. Then over the two years since then I have become more and more stable, it is like I am physically and mentally getting used to a new perspective on reality. The "I" is getting less and less important, and I suspect it will eventually not matter any more, which might be the enlightenment thingy. These two years have not been easy, they have been terrible. And they have been the great adventure of life. Incredibly costly. But somehow I don't regret it. As you discover more and more about your self, the unnecessary suffering becomes so obvious that you just cant go on like before. Separation sucks. But as it is, I would hardly put my friends or enemies (dont think I have any) through this experience, unless they had an unquenchable thirst for truth. This may be because of my limited perspective, but for the individual, part of this journey is hell. Many people seem to have a much more pleasant trip, and I'm probably just pretty bad at handling this stuff. I suspect that the longer the process, the less intense it is, and for me the initial development was pretty fast.
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