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Post by lightmystic on Feb 19, 2009 10:46:34 GMT -5
Hey souley, Thanks for sharing. That's very cool. Yup, I've noticed that once there's a shift in style of functioning, all the old patterns that don't mesh with the current experience start to come up to be looked at and released. As you say, even though clarity of detail, depth, and relationship grow over time, it's always the same everything-ness. The whole thing is already there in your Awareness, as your Awareness itself. Time and integration is certainly necessary and important. If you are feeling to do less focusing on the spirituality concepts and being with your experience, that is perfect. The only value of the spirituality concepts, that may end up being useful in the future (or not) is that they reference parts of your Allness and ways of relating to it that you can "feel out" and find in your own experience. This helps put attention on it and can help clarity grow. That doesn't mean that's the best thing for you right now, however, but I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it entirely. Essentially finding your own experience in other's description has the amazing functioning of enlivening more in oneself... Keep up the good work!  So just some thoughts now that I'm a bit more stable:) The new intense awareness has kind of quited down, but I'm able to experience it at times, as a nothing that is 'deeper' then the earlier feeling of being. Now that I'm a bit used to it I find it very satisfying, it's a new level of me. It's really as you say LM that issues disappear. And what's even cooler is that old subconscious behaviors are surfacing. Sometimes I think like, 'd**n what a weird reaction that was', just to realize that this is the way I have always acted, just not recognizing it. And I'm getting even more tired of the concepts and stories I hear and read about concerning enlightenment. It's like, it's my awareness, I want to find out for myself, and not fill my mind with a lot of junk. I want to read about the process, for the guidance and support, but intellectualizing about the 'higher states' isn't really helping. It's fun to just go deeper into myself and see what happens, expecting nothing in particular. So right now I'm just being aware while doing all sorts of normal stuff, not really reading or searching a lot. It's really just up to me to find me through going deeper into what I have already seen, trying to do this with a good amount of intensity. It really feels like the best way at the moment. This is contrary to all the 'seekers' that seem to identify with all the ideas etc, I don't want to end up like them. |
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Post by souley on Feb 20, 2009 7:28:10 GMT -5
Yeah, there can definitely be many "falling apart" phases, depending on how fast the process is going. It definitely seems like nothing-ness at first. That is an important part of an important process. There's no need to stop or go on with your life. This IS your life. They can't really be separated. This is the content of it, this is what it has actually always been, and that's very frightening at first. It just needs a lot of time to integrate, to become more and more Aware of what it is and your relationship to it. It IS who and what you have actually always been. And, even further, it's relationship to everything else and what that means about you. You make a very good observation that, a lot of the time, when it really comes down to letting go of serious and deep issues, there comes this feeling of "why did I want this?! This whole thing was a big mistake!" or something like that. But, at that point, when the issue is already coming out, it's too late. And that's a good thing, because once' the issue is gone, it's really gone. As if it was never there. And there is so much more experience waiting. It's a big price to pay, but it's worth every cent. As you recognize, this doesn't have to necessarily be flashy. A lot of it will be, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's moments like you're describing that a lot of real intense work can take place, and it's a blessing in that sense. But the idea of grounding this stuff, no matter how amazing or flashy, so that it sinks in, integrates, becomes normal, is exactly on track. Anonji has good advice. It's great to hear the updates. We're rooting for you! This is so extremely spot on.. it seems like every word of it can be broken down and be found to resonate with my experience at the moment. Like that an issue is brought out by whats currently happening, and it's not gone yet, but I am so forced to face it that it seems that I handle it better and better, and I can definitely imagine that it will be completely gone at some point. If I could hide away and run from the issue, I would definitely do. It reminds me of mushroom trips and the like where you cant step out of the craziness and eventually it consumes you, and then everything just explodes and the craziness is completely wiped out. And what a freedom to be rid of these things. But it is a kind of "hell and back" feeling. At the moment it feels like when I have faced issues like this, what could possibly scare me again:) And that "there can definitely be many "falling apart" phases, depending on how fast the process is going" also feels very true, since I think my incredibly strong will is making this process very fast. This is probably one of the reasons that I want to take it easy for a bit, focus on regular stuff, and let it integrate. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Feb 21, 2009 1:59:04 GMT -5
Yes. As I read it somewhere....
"Nothing is unexplainable.
Everything is a mystery."
Think of these as being on a continuum, and you'll see how little there is "to know" (Nothing) and so much to simply experience (Everything). Mind you, there are probabilities that become evermore clearer as the continuum is Understood. At different points on the continuum, the paradox(es) plays due to the limitations of the mind, and one (person who sees life as dual in nature) can easily end up chasing your own tail....that part of Everything/Mystery can also be very interesting.
The degree to which you can "lighten up" and not be so hard on yourself and realize you are the perpetual child playing in the amazing arena of life you have created for your character, You are Free. You no longer take "your faults" so seriously. In essence, you have become the great court jester, as well as the queen/king, in the hierarchy of life, haha! No kingdoms, just Freedoms! The continuum,,,,
" Some times I feel I am everything, I call that Love. Sometimes I feel I am nothing, I call that Wisdom. Between Love and Wisdom my life continuously flows"- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
Beware though, if the little "you" thinks it can "get away with anything", that little you just might be a little at odds with the Mystery (the Love) You/It created. All part of the game! No separation. No borders. Just One----continuum.
Wahooooo!
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 21, 2009 15:25:40 GMT -5
Well said. Yes. As I read it somewhere.... "Nothing is unexplainable. Everything is a mystery." Think of these as being on a continuum, and you'll see how little there is "to know" (Nothing) and so much to simply experience (Everything). Mind you, there are probabilities that become evermore clearer as the continuum is Understood. At different points on the continuum, the paradox(es) plays due to the limitations of the mind, and one (person who sees life as dual in nature) can easily end up chasing your own tail....that part of Everything/Mystery can also be very interesting. The degree to which you can "lighten up" and not be so hard on yourself and realize you are the perpetual child playing in the amazing arena of life you have created for your character, You are Free. You no longer take "your faults" so seriously. In essence, you have become the great court jester, as well as the king, in the hierarchy of life, haha! No kingdoms, just Freedoms! The continuum,,,, " Some times I feel I am everything, I call that Love. Sometimes I feel I am nothing, I call that Wisdom. Between Love and Wisdom my life continuously flows"- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj Beware though, if the little "you" thinks it can "get away with anything", that little you just might be a little at odds with the Mystery (the Love) It created. All part of the game! No separation. No borders. Just One----continuum. Wahooooo! |
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Post by souley on Mar 3, 2009 4:28:44 GMT -5
So I'm still here, I alternate between a state of great fear and a state of higher and higher awareness it seems. I believe it is the worst thing I've been through. Sometimes I think I'm going insane, the world is totally changing for me and 99,999% of humanity has not seen and never will experience this. I'm all alone with these issues. The whole concept of creation is starting to get a new meaning, and I'm not sure what it is, but its scary. I don't know what to do, I would sure like to let go of the fear somehow. It seems to be like a release of deep fear that just takes any form it can. It's very uncomfortable.. I have definately learned alot about fear. I often think about my life before this happened and how that was such a safe place compared to this. And I'm scared that if this doesnt stop sometime how am I supposed to live. When I'm not in the state of fear it feels pretty good, and I'm thinking like, maybe it's gone now, but it seems eventually I get a new "wave" of it. It has been 3 weeks now with this new way of living.
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Post by Peter on Mar 3, 2009 8:00:47 GMT -5
Hi Souley
What is it that you're scared of? What is the threat, and what is it threatening?
Do you have a sense of "connection"? If so, it might help you to mentally hold that (and trust it) when the fear comes upon you. A bit like Monkey Rings, you need to have a firm grip of the next ring when you let go of the previous one.
Cheers,
Peter
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 3, 2009 10:59:13 GMT -5
Yes, this definitely sounds familiar Perhaps it would help to recognize that the fear is not really of anything, even if it feels like it. It's really just fear. Anything else is just an attributing the fear to something. So from that perspective, it's only the fear itself that is messing with you. While this is often a big part of the process, perhaps it would help to recognize that the fear itself is safe. It can't hurt you. You might also try just noticing the fearful thoughts and feelings. I find that fear is a state of aliveness that's feeling blocked. So it's not the "fear" (i.e. the emotion) itself that should change, but just the preventing of it from expressing itself comfortably. That said, be nice to yourself. As you say, this is something almost no one is able to go through and so it takes a lot of gentleness to be able to relax into it. As boundaries go, as safety's are taken away, it can often feel like insanity, or like nothing will ever be okay. But it's kind of akin to the solid world being replaced with water. It can be frightening at first because there's not the solidity of before, there's nothing to hold on to. Eventually, however, that same thing is what people appreciate so much. Someone used to it gets to just float along and enjoy, while everyone has to try to make things happen in confined, hard realities. Thus, it's really not the state of things that hurts, but the thrashing about in fear of drowning... You can't drown in this stuff, and maybe you'll have to to really discover that. Anyway, keep us posted. I know this will resolve for you, but this is such an important part of a deeply important process... So I'm still here, I alternate between a state of great fear and a state of higher and higher awareness it seems. I believe it is the worst thing I've been through. Sometimes I think I'm going insane, the world is totally changing for me and 99,999% of humanity has not seen and never will experience this. I'm all alone with these issues. The whole concept of creation is starting to get a new meaning, and I'm not sure what it is, but its scary. I don't know what to do, I would sure like to let go of the fear somehow. It seems to be like a release of deep fear that just takes any form it can. It's very uncomfortable.. I have definately learned alot about fear. I often think about my life before this happened and how that was such a safe place compared to this. And I'm scared that if this doesnt stop sometime how am I supposed to live. When I'm not in the state of fear it feels pretty good, and I'm thinking like, maybe it's gone now, but it seems eventually I get a new "wave" of it. It has been 3 weeks now with this new way of living. |
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Post by souley on Mar 3, 2009 14:15:28 GMT -5
What is it that you're scared of? What is the threat, and what is it threatening? Do you have a sense of "connection"? If so, it might help you to mentally hold that (and trust it) when the fear comes upon you. A bit like Monkey Rings, you need to have a firm grip of the next ring when you let go of the previous one. I think it is just the ego, or my old sense of self that is so heavily invested in, that creates crazy amounts of fear when it is starting to dissolve as it is for me now. Then that fear can take almost any form. It isn't anything real thats threatening, it is just mind made up stuff like "maybe I'm going insane" "the world isn't real" "will I have to kill myself to ever get out of this". But it is hard to see the fallacy of these thoughts when they are driven by intense fear. I don't know what you mean by connection, but one of the hard parts is that there isn't much left to hold on to.. the base of my existence is changing and everything else that can be experienced is through that. And maybe it is a good thing that it is hard to hold on. But I also try to do stuff that I normally do to get a sense of safety or relief. |
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Post by souley on Mar 3, 2009 14:17:23 GMT -5
Thanks alot LM for your support, it all makes good sense.
I also emailed Scott Kiloby about this, and this is a quote from his reply:
I kind of figured myself that its just some kind of raw fear, and it is my mind that makes it take shape in ideas of insanity etc. A thought like "I had a normal life, now through messing with my mind I've gotten myself into some kind of terrible state of fear, I must be going insane", is very powerful and hard to let go of. When in a certain place thoughts like that makes a lot of sense.
I practiced getting rid of fear/feelings before by focusing my awareness on it, and I kind of dropped it when this started happening.. but I'm definitely on board that again, it is like the ultimate clarity. But when in the middle of the worst fear it is hard to see that.
I like your water analogy. When I'm not in the state of fear, I'm definitely "flowing" more then before, and it is a new kind of freedom hidden somewhere in this.
Today is a better day, much because of these insights.
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Post by Peter on Mar 3, 2009 15:32:20 GMT -5
I hadn't heard of Scott Kiloby before, but I found some videos of him talking here and liked what he had to say: roshi1.blogspot.com/2008/08/scott-kiloby.htmlHe does, however, look like a man who's badly in need of a good night's sleep! |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 4, 2009 2:28:23 GMT -5
So I'm still here, I alternate between a state of great fear and a state of higher and higher awareness it seems. I believe it is the worst thing I've been through. Sometimes I think I'm going insane, the world is totally changing for me and 99,999% of humanity has not seen and never will experience this. I'm all alone with these issues. The whole concept of creation is starting to get a new meaning, and I'm not sure what it is, but its scary. I don't know what to do, I would sure like to let go of the fear somehow. It seems to be like a release of deep fear that just takes any form it can. It's very uncomfortable.. I have definately learned alot about fear. I often think about my life before this happened and how that was such a safe place compared to this. And I'm scared that if this doesnt stop sometime how am I supposed to live. When I'm not in the state of fear it feels pretty good, and I'm thinking like, maybe it's gone now, but it seems eventually I get a new "wave" of it. It has been 3 weeks now with this new way of living. Hi Souley, A couple of points to consider: From the time you were physically born and up through your childhood, and even your adolescent and adult life, you have been under the influence of a culture, and within that culture you used a language to convey thoughts, meanings, perspectives, ideals, senses of self, etc. That is, while you went through an enculturation process in which you learned the values, beliefs, attitudes, norms, and acceptable world views, you also learned a language with which you began to filter, categorize, and project "reality". Never underestimate the power of this conditioning factor! Think about it. When you think, how do you do it? In pictures and words typically. Those words and ways of thinking happened so subtly and unconsciously over a long period of time that for most of your life, you haven't even thought of questioning it....what is this reality? Nor had you thought of how the sense of "you" was constructed. Even the grammar and syntax work to accentuate "the reality" that you are a separate self. That's why using English grammar to explain such things always sounds so,,,welll,,,, strange. It doesn't sound so strange in Hindi! haha If you explain these ideas there, they're like, "Oh yes, of course!! Congratulations!!" In the English speaking world, wellllll, you're nuts! There is always a signaled "cause and effect" built into our syntax, grammar (way of thinking, world view) that even god must be/ is separate. Heresy, blasphemy, witch burning, and other words have a special meaning for Truth seekers and Realizers in the Western world. These are easily identifiable concepts and perhaps you've heard them before, BUT you must be aware of how the little you is still interacting with the world and how your mind/thoughts/ego/sense of self is/are still trying to translate, filter, categorize and project the "reality" when the REAL YOU has SEEN and EXPERIENCED (if not for but a second) beyond that worldly sense of "I". At One with the Void, Experiencing All ain't exactly Kansas! haha Which you/You do you tend to "identify with"? Key point. One of them is in and of the universe as a subject/ object (in the grammar), the "other" is, well, just watching the little you in and of the universe, as well as the rest of it....errr,, something like that. Now, as you have stated, "you" have experienced something that has completely and radically revolutionized your world view (tricky point here, but don't worry, doesn't matter,,,,unless of course it does,,,haha hee hee!). Even finding the words to convey the "experience" doesn't work for yourself (but it's nice to try sometimes, or feel that moment when it happened, and slip into the bliss, but be careful, attachment may taking a foothold----out of the Present you go,,,the Bliss is Always Here), much less for those to whom you are trying to "explain the unexplainable" (except, of course, for those who DO Understand). Now, through your conscious spiritual rebirth, you must also understand that the synapses of your mind, your emotional centers, your senses of self and reality etc are still identified with the language system AND that "older order/construct of things" (the values and valued, the beliefs, the norms and attitudes, etc) and the correlating reactions seem normal,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT You "Know" the world to be different now (afterall, you've had the experience, right?!!). The little you knows there's a way it's always been, the rationalizing mind steps in.........thoughts lead to chain reactions of other thoughts.......fear takes over........more reactions occur.......more conceptualizing........panic seems plausible..........why not?....fear is everywhere!! Am I? Am I not? Hmmmmmm, no answers. Gotta have those! Gotta have self! Gotta exist!! Ohhh crap! Me me me!!! What about meeee!! Waaaaaaaaaaa!!! Every thought/word has been geared toward understanding yourself as a center, as a separate being, as something that exists. What happens when that is challenged or questioned? Fear.All of these things are fine. Consider it part of a process, once the bliss of that instantaneous moment has passed, of becoming more conscious of that minute gap when the little you tries to step in, take control, and be THE center. Here's an metaphor for clarification. For most of your life, you've been a bird flying with one wing, focused on everything in the universe. The circles of joy, sorrow, friends, family, love, hate, etc have kept you nicely identified as the center, as souley. You freaked one day, lost your energy and will, and began your spiral down through the layers of self toward oblivion where you were certain you'd never live without that ever-present divided sense of self, that center known as the separate me. Nonetheless, you were drawn to that, you got there, and Realized something. Now, you're the same bird (body/mind) you've always been, but have experienced what it is to have another wing, this other end of the continuum, the nothing of this universe. No little you, no love, no candy, no life, no self....nada....and qualitative shift. You're beginning to Understand what Nothing actually is. Existence IS. Truth IS. But, you as a center (souley) aren't. Yes, you can still speak the language (albeit, sound strange sometimes!), interact as a part of the universe, understand when people don't really Understand, feel the pain of their sense of fear of non-existence (although, not necessarily share in the pain), and all the rest. Your Understanding (of the continuum of Nothing and Everything) will evolve. As you continue to learn to fly As, With, Between, and even Without these two wings, As a Whole Bird, your/Your experience (your Understanding/Experience of Nondual Reality) will Be Just So. It may or may not flow toward verbal communication/teaching of it, but it won't matter. You're flying. Where does the sky begin? Where does it end? What does it matter? Fearless.I/You/We/It/Everything/Nothing IS ALL ONE. ONE IS BEAUTIFUL, IS TRUE, IS GOOD. No words can explain It. |
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Post by Peter on Mar 4, 2009 7:52:15 GMT -5
It isn't anything real thats threatening, it is just mind made up stuff like "maybe I'm going insane" "the world isn't real" I wouldn't worry about it too much, sanity is over-rated. All it means is that you're buying in to consensual reality and since you're bordering on not buying in to that reality... well, as long as you can still follow the rules of society enough to buy a cup of coffee without having the police called on you, you'll be fine. Sanity / Insanity is just a label, it's meaningless. However there is a question of being able to look after yourself, hold down a job etc and that does have meaning. At least I should say, it's as important as you are. Or so I see it. I don't know what you mean by connection, but one of the hard parts is that there isn't much left to hold on to It's possible that we're on different paths here, so I think what LM is saying is probably more useful to you. Ultimately I feel that all is one and I've had an experience of being part of that (or more accurately, all of that). But that experience isn't (for me) a sustainable thing. So now Peter exists - in as much as we can say that anything exists - but in that continuum between just me and everything, I have a sense of a higher Me which is what I call that thing that I feel connected to when I'm present and self aware. It feels like it's centred in my chest, something about the size of a baseball ... utterly still, connected to All That Is, totally accepting, energised and for some reason I get the feeling it has a sense of humour. I think I'm going to go there - little "I" becoming big "I" before moving on, perhaps to "No I". Take care, Peter |
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Post by souley on Mar 8, 2009 15:50:37 GMT -5
Thank you for all your replies! It is unbelievable the amount of fear that I found within me. I think this is essentially the same fear that every human carries within them, except that it just takes the form of a general unhappiness and unease, you know "the human condition" These last three weeks seems to have been for me a release of a lot of that. It was pretty brutal. Somewhere I went from resisting the change in consciousness to accepting it, and since then I have been able to stay present as the fear arises, and it has dissolved steadily ever since. Right now I don't fear that the fear will come back, so to speak. I would know that it is just more me needing to be released. Of course this may change if I experience something more extreme, but that's what I feel right now. Earlier today I had a moment of great presence, I just walked around in childlike wonder of stuff in my apartment. It was a joy that did not spring from achievement. It was not happiness in the conventional sense. It seems to be the same general connectedness that I have felt while trying mushrooms (psychedelic drugs). While I'm writing this I am relaxed and care free in a new way. I feel that the process is surrounded with so much mysticism and stories. It was easy for my mind to get caught up in that while in the release of fear. But from where I am now it seems so natural. Something has been removed, allowing me to be and experience what has always been underneath. But I somehow know that this is far from over. Any advice or thoughts? Peter: I think if you focus on the thing you seem to have found, I am sure it will grow, try to do it especially when you are upset. If your path will face fear in any way, I have no idea |
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 9, 2009 10:28:58 GMT -5
Only time will tell at this point where it takes you. Let us know how it resolves, as it's impossible to know the flip side of all this fear coming out until it is over. The only you can know is that, as the fear is coming out, this is opening the way for something very amazing...
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Post by souley on Mar 17, 2009 4:45:06 GMT -5
Well there doesn't seem to be that much fear left now.. It's been a steady decrease since the first time which was the most brutal. It seems like that if a person invests their sense of self in something, like a role, they are good at a certain job etc, and then that is taken away, all that investment will be released as fear or pain. And what happens at awakening is that simply everything is removed, everything that the ego invested itself in is blown away, and what follows is a total release of all that investment. I guess this process could be less painful if it would have taken place over a longer time. There is generally less me now. There is some part of what I used to think of as me that is not there anymore. I also find myself being less afraid of things like heights.. which is a peculiar feeling A couple of nights ago I was trying to sleep, lying in bed and just kind of listening to my heartbeat. Then suddenly, I realized that I was that heartbeat. And then I was the entire "inner body awareness energy".. thing. It was like love, it was just so.. complete, unconditional. And it was interesting that a thing like "my heart" can be considered so external in normal conciousness. I haven't really read about anything like this, is this love the sense of unity that gets mentioned here and there? Well it isn't a permanent thing.. it was only just then, but I guess it's growing on me. There is still a general feeling of unease at times, but confidence is rising that this is just something that needs to sink in. There is also an adjustment to the new insights about the state of things. For example that everything is kind of meaningless. The future does not exist in the same way as before. Time in general seems so strange, there really is just now, yet there is time! And that all people are more or less suffering, it is kind of sad. Anyway this is certainly the adventure of adventures. It's got everything, it is very exciting, very scary, very costly and very rewarding. |
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So just some thoughts now that I'm a bit more stable:)
