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Post by lightmystic on Mar 17, 2009 11:47:34 GMT -5
hey Souley, Glad it's working. That's really the ultimate test of whether you're going in the right direction or not. Your description of the process is very clear. That kind of understanding of what you're doing can take you far, and appears to be doing that... It is interesting and fascinating how it's almost like section of the self can be cut out and there's just nothing to replace them. That is definitely and interesting stage in the process. And a very very important one, although it doesn't have to happen exactly that way for everyone. It did for me though... The heart Awareness thing, the unease, and the pain of others' suffering is all one thing. It's the heart's desire to grow and let go of confinement. It's not really "other people's" suffering you are feeling. It is your own projected on to others. It's compassion without the ability to completely open with it yet. But attention to that, and realizing that it's not really others' suffering you are feeling, will allow it resolve. Compassion isn't supposed to hurt ultimately. It's supposed to feel wonderful. It only hurts when one is expanding past old boundaries, and the confinement is felt a little bit. Does that make sense? The wonderful heart experience you described is the beginning of unity-type experiences. What I found really helped me was noticing how the Allness that I was related to everything else. What was the common factor in it? It's also very interesting how relationship to time and "caring" drastically change over the process. They take on new meanings and definitions. So how are things resolving? Let me know! Well there doesn't seem to be that much fear left now.. It's been a steady decrease since the first time which was the most brutal. It seems like that if a person invests their sense of self in something, like a role, they are good at a certain job etc, and then that is taken away, all that investment will be released as fear or pain. And what happens at awakening is that simply everything is removed, everything that the ego invested itself in is blown away, and what follows is a total release of all that investment. I guess this process could be less painful if it would have taken place over a longer time. There is generally less me now. There is some part of what I used to think of as me that is not there anymore. I also find myself being less afraid of things like heights.. which is a peculiar feeling A couple of nights ago I was trying to sleep, lying in bed and just kind of listening to my heartbeat. Then suddenly, I realized that I was that heartbeat. And then I was the entire "inner body awareness energy".. thing. It was like love, it was just so.. complete, unconditional. And it was interesting that a thing like "my heart" can be considered so external in normal conciousness. I haven't really read about anything like this, is this love the sense of unity that gets mentioned here and there? Well it isn't a permanent thing.. it was only just then, but I guess it's growing on me. There is still a general feeling of unease at times, but confidence is rising that this is just something that needs to sink in. There is also an adjustment to the new insights about the state of things. For example that everything is kind of meaningless. The future does not exist in the same way as before. Time in general seems so strange, there really is just now, yet there is time! And that all people are more or less suffering, it is kind of sad. Anyway this is certainly the adventure of adventures. It's got everything, it is very exciting, very scary, very costly and very rewarding.
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Post by The Uncreated on Mar 18, 2009 12:06:16 GMT -5
And that all people are more or less suffering, it is kind of sad. But necessary. It's the contrasting and complimentary force to That Which Is -- a force that's the necessary catalyst for fostering the existential discomfort and longing for truth. Without suffering, awakening can't be said to be man's ultimate purpose over and above all other Earthly endeavours. The One goes along with the Other. Having said that, I value suffering as much as I do the "thing" that remains when suffering is removed, because it's the totality of liberation and suffering together -- essentially the motivating force that springs from All Things -- that sparks the first instance of enquiry.
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Post by souley on Mar 20, 2009 4:37:30 GMT -5
Thank you both!
I've been really struggling with "bad thoughts" for the last weeks, trying all different kinds of strategies. And it was like, every time I "got rid" of one of them, another one would take it's place. Like every one is ridiculously untrue, and at some point I see through that to the underlying truth, and stop caring about the thought. But it's like an endless cycle, another one will take its place. And it's like, what is wrong with me, I must be turning into some kind of psycho.
So I was pretty bummed out by this today, I was like, I don't want to be in this state of fucked-up-ness anymore, it's been so long. I was lying in bed contemplating this whole thing, when I suddenly realised that my old self, my ego or whatever had so very little left, there was actually only one thing to hold on to now, and that was these thoughts. All the thoughts were in some way or another geared towards "what is going to happen to me when all this is changing", or some variant on that. It was obvious that it was a "holding on" that was happening, without any real other purpose.
I was pretty struck by this insight, it seemed so obviously true. But I was still like, OK, so how would I go about letting go, like how do I "kill" myself. That is stupid, how will I ever be able to do that. I'm not in a place of suicidal nature or extreme suffering, I can't be expected to just give up my life. So anyway I just laid there, and my mind was pretty silent. Then suddenly I got a very strong current of awareness, it was like my body would be glowing. It was stronger then ever before. I was like, whoa, nice, and tried to just enjoy it.
Then I got into the unity thing again, it felt like I was my entire body, every cell of it. It was once again love. I really like this love. So I stayed like this for about an hour, watching my thoughts, thinking about people I know, and I just loved every bit of it. How could I ever not love anything. It was amazing.
From this place of love, nothing bad could ever happen it seems. It is truly prior to everything else, and completely untouched by it. ;D
The fear takes place in this space, its very existence is dependent on this love. How could it possibly hurt it in any way.
Now how to live this?!
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Post by souley on Mar 20, 2009 4:47:02 GMT -5
The heart Awareness thing, the unease, and the pain of others' suffering is all one thing. It's the heart's desire to grow and let go of confinement. It's not really "other people's" suffering you are feeling. It is your own projected on to others. It's compassion without the ability to completely open with it yet. But attention to that, and realizing that it's not really others' suffering you are feeling, will allow it resolve. Compassion isn't supposed to hurt ultimately. It's supposed to feel wonderful. It only hurts when one is expanding past old boundaries, and the confinement is felt a little bit. Does that make sense? It is definitely a projection, I kind of figured that myself. It is the truth that we all know deep down. It's a nice way of putting it, it certainly feels very warm and loving compared to the feeling of projection, "blaming" people or the world for all the suffering. The wonderful heart experience you described is the beginning of unity-type experiences. What I found really helped me was noticing how the Allness that I was related to everything else. What was the common factor in it? Maybe you could help me a bit with this.. What I am feeling is definitely the same awareness as I have felt this entire journey, but it is stronger, more clear, and at times it can really be felt that I am that awareness. I have not yet been able to see it clearly enough to see any relations or common factors.. it's like a cloud, as of yet a mystery.
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Post by souley on Mar 20, 2009 4:48:29 GMT -5
But necessary. It's the contrasting and complimentary force to That Which Is -- a force that's the necessary catalyst for fostering the existential discomfort and longing for truth. Without suffering, awakening can't be said to be man's ultimate purpose over and above all other Earthly endeavours. The One goes along with the Other. Having said that, I value suffering as much as I do the "thing" that remains when suffering is removed, because it's the totality of liberation and suffering together -- essentially the motivating force that springs from All Things -- that sparks the first instance of enquiry. So very true, the world is so amazing, why do we keep on doubting it! ;D
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 20, 2009 10:00:12 GMT -5
Hey souley,
Very cool. I don't know if this has happened yet, but the first step is to accept that the Awareness is you. You've seen that, it may go up and down in levels of clarity, but that bigness is all that you are and have ever been. Boom. Done. That is all that is needed and there can never be a going back once it's accepted for real as permanently real even one time. There can be doubt, pain, suffering, or whatever, but they are along side who you really are, they do not prove or signify that you've "lost" the Awareness. The Awareness is what all suffering is perceived within...it's just hard to have perspective at first, although it appears to be unfolding marvelously well. Nothing can beat being ripe for it...
In terms of the unity experiences, those things tend to come and go, but it's the process of integrating it all the time. The unity is clear in one moment but then life says "can you see the unity in THIS situation?" and then we are challenged on that. Essentially life shows us every block we've had that keeps us from having the feeling all the time, and then we are able to integrate it fully, and have it all the time in a way that isn't so overtly flashy or overwhelming. It becomes part of what life is...
And then there's the next progression...
What I found to be useful was the knowledge that the unity experience itself is a feeling. And that feeling is already in you somewhere, that's how it can arise spontaneously and how you can know to want it even when it isn't clear enough to be satisfying at a given moment. Thus, putting your attention whole heartedly on that unity experience allows anything in the way to come up and be resolved and released. That way, it can integrate to become the day to day experience. I know it happens differently for everyone, but when that love experience integrated is was a very big difference. That initial Awakening, even though it is the point of no return tends to be so natural and such a slight change that it's hard to even believe that it really happened. The integration of unity is far more flashy. Not that it has to happen that way for you or anything, but I would venture to guess that it very well might considering the intensity that you tend to experience these things with....
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Post by souley on Mar 21, 2009 6:55:11 GMT -5
Thanks LM, that was very helpful. I do actually think that what has happened is that I accepted the awareness. I feel rooted in a way that I haven't been feeling this last month. And no not really any integration of unity yet, looking forward to that. I notice that all the spiritual "ways of living" get so natural once you get present enough. Like how can I not live in the present moment, when I AM the present moment. Not that this is my reality yet but the glimpses/insights are there. I'll continue keeping you all updated
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 23, 2009 9:47:45 GMT -5
Hey Souley, Very glad that it helped.. I had a feeling you had made that recognition...very cool... It is interesting how being open and such is actually easier and less energy consuming than the more confined way of functioning... Definitely keep me updated. I will look forward to that. Thanks LM, that was very helpful. I do actually think that what has happened is that I accepted the awareness. I feel rooted in a way that I haven't been feeling this last month. And no not really any integration of unity yet, looking forward to that. I notice that all the spiritual "ways of living" get so natural once you get present enough. Like how can I not live in the present moment, when I AM the present moment. Not that this is my reality yet but the glimpses/insights are there. I'll continue keeping you all updated
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Post by souley on Mar 25, 2009 12:39:03 GMT -5
Well it does seem like I'm making progress, as I have described above, but the fear still comes. It's still a falling in and out of it. The worst is that it will take the form of some thought that I really don't like.. and it's very hard to relax into it. It's never as bad as it was in the beginning, but it would sure be nice to get rid of it.
Is this "normal"? Will it just be gone one day or will it be a very gradual thing? When approaching unity integration and stuff like that, is the fear gone?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 26, 2009 0:29:50 GMT -5
Hi Souley,
somenothing to try:
Sit comfortably, close your eyes, slowly breathe deeeeply, in and out, while sensing your heart/being slowly spiral down into the deep deep recesses of an inner presence
continue breathing, relaxing into that
"staring with your being" into the void
nothing
when thoughts begin to arise
lovingly
with your breath/sense of being, bathe the thoughts in that nothingness
sense how they dissolve into that presence
you might sense the "flow" or energy
bathe that in the nothingness with your breath/sense of being also
presence
no thing
stillness
_________________________________________
Fear is forever the 'shadow' of a 'separate' entity, which can only exist in the dreamstate, which is everything, but is empty. Fear's existence is dependent on 'something', thus fear of no thing (i.e., non-existence). When there is thought/the search for knowledge/the play of experience, there is movement, which requires time/space/separation from something other....the dreamstate.
Fear dancing with fear of fear is an interesting dance to watch. Easy to get caught up in.
Separation dissolved. No boundaries. Integrated.
YOU (I AM) are Eternal, Timeless.
No (other) thing to watch.
Stillness.
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 26, 2009 10:06:11 GMT -5
Hey Souley, Fear is a tricky thing. The trying to get rid of it comes from it bringing a feeling of lack of safety. Lack of safety stems from fear. Hehe, so you can see the catch 22. To not want fear can only come from fear. A vicious cycle. Something that helped me resolve that is the recognition that fear is perfectly safe. It is that same Awareness that you are, and it can help to recognize that by feeling into it. Fear, when not trying to be avoided, is actually passionate movement. As a very developed guy pointed out to me, when there is fear present, then the body gets on high alert, the pulse speeds up, etc. etc.. Perhaps what is being called fear is actually just more awareness? Literally. It's just extra Awareness with the story attached that there are things that can hurt you. Now, I also recognize that you are in the process of letting go of those stories, which could very well be why they're coming up now. So, it's not necessarily fear that's the problem, it's just that you appear to be in the process of discovering the value and usefulness of a feeling that was initially labeled "fear". Does that make sense? Well it does seem like I'm making progress, as I have described above, but the fear still comes. It's still a falling in and out of it. The worst is that it will take the form of some thought that I really don't like.. and it's very hard to relax into it. It's never as bad as it was in the beginning, but it would sure be nice to get rid of it. Is this "normal"? Will it just be gone one day or will it be a very gradual thing? When approaching unity integration and stuff like that, is the fear gone?
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Mar 28, 2009 12:09:00 GMT -5
All this talk of fear enticed me to respond. First of all what is fear? It is a very difficult emotion to define. It's like trying to define love or anger to someone that has never felt it. So basically fear is a label to an emotion that we have all agreed to call fear.
I would say fear, is the ego and it's the only thing holding us back from who we really are. Hence the millenia of suppression of our true self. I learned about fear from my own experience that I've mentioned before, when I got over a snake phobia in about 30seconds. I just allowed it to burn itself out through me. When I experience fear now, as long as it's at a manageable level I do the same, I allow it to be and it burns itself out.
The breathing exercise SomeNothing provided is the exact same thing. There are only a few things that I know of that we can truly count on as operating in reality, one is breathing and the other is your heartbeat. Since you can't focus on your heart as easily as breathing, the choice is obvious. Focus on your breath and allow whatever arises to arise, bad thoughts, good thoughts, distractions to throw you off your concentration of breath, whatever. Be aware of them, don't fight them or identify with them. Just allow them to be. This has worked for me with great difficulty at times but nevertheless has worked.
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Post by lightmystic on Mar 28, 2009 16:23:29 GMT -5
Hey fear, Thanks for your post. I find the emotion of fear to be simply a concern that there can be confinement. Part of this is strictly physiological, and the concern can come up without there needing to be identifying with it or involved in it. What's called Enlightenment has to do with the relationship to the world (including emotions, etc.) and not necessarily the content itself. There is nothing that has to be there or gone for it to happen, it's only about relationship to it. The idea is that it all becomes safe eventually, even feelings of anger, fear, sadness, etc.. And in the process of that, they can almost be called something else. But, either way, it is still the same emotions, just a different relationship to them. What do you think? All this talk of fear enticed me to respond. First of all what is fear? It is a very difficult emotion to define. It's like trying to define love or anger to someone that has never felt it. So basically fear is a label to an emotion that we have all agreed to call fear. I would say fear, is the ego and it's the only thing holding us back from who we really are. Hence the millenia of suppression of our true self. I learned about fear from my own experience that I've mentioned before, when I got over a snake phobia in about 30seconds. I just allowed it to burn itself out through me. When I experience fear now, as long as it's at a manageable level I do the same, I allow it to be and it burns itself out. The breathing exercise SomeNothing provided is the exact same thing. There are only a few things that I know of that we can truly count on as operating in reality, one is breathing and the other is your heartbeat. Since you can't focus on your heart as easily as breathing, the choice is obvious. Focus on your breath and allow whatever arises to arise, bad thoughts, good thoughts, distractions to throw you off your concentration of breath, whatever. Be aware of them, don't fight them or identify with them. Just allow them to be. This has worked for me with great difficulty at times but nevertheless has worked.
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Post by souley on Mar 29, 2009 10:26:44 GMT -5
From the Jed Mckenna info on this site:
I'm so sick of this..
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 30, 2009 0:03:10 GMT -5
Hi Souley,
You're trying to reconcile your dreamstate with the glimpse of the Awakened state. What are the roots of this illusion that "you" still exist?
It's great that you are being honest to the board of your present state. These are such valuable lessons to be learned in the dreamstate.
"I am Souley", an amazing beautifully crafted illusion, a separate being who desires enlightenment, as well as Souley's sense of what a "perfect world" "should" be, is still your present identity which holds you firmly in its grip. From the other side of this experience, you can see the whole relationship that LM has mentioned. From the side you're looking at this from, the confusion still exists.
The conditioned Souley, with its pain, doubt, joy, wonder etc will continue in this dreamstate. Can You see from your true nature the things that the conditioned mind grows attached to? The desire for more of that blissful experience will arise naturally, but once You see it as part of the dreamstate, for what it is (dream), it won't really matter.
BTW, I agree with McKenna's statement. Those (fictional characters) that are trying to wake up will go through this terrible torment of sliding down and out of the reality they hold so dear (at least that's how it was for this dream character). Yes, it seems that one only need to let go; how one goes about "unlearning" in order to do that, varies form one character to another.
A quote (and I paraphrase) by Mark Twain:
"If you can't learn it any other way, you might learn it by trying to walk around while holding a cat by its tail."
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