|
Post by mamza on Feb 7, 2011 16:20:38 GMT -5
You cling to what others say too much, Michael. Almost every post you make is a quote from someone you feel was enlightened, and most of the rest are about how illegitimate you think another teacher was. Why not forget all about them and see where things go from there?
I say this in as polite a manner as I can--I don't want you thinking I'm attacking you. Just throwing something out there.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Feb 7, 2011 17:17:12 GMT -5
noted not a problem I write what I write and for sure I do expect opinions Thanks Micakel
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Feb 7, 2011 17:46:36 GMT -5
I only have a strong presence cuz I post a lot! True, but with your knowledge of teachings, you are also a very convincing writer. What I say is what has worked for me which is yes give up the search, Unless big chunks of self-hood have "fallen off", then you are right where you started and you can't be certain that anything has actually worked. stop seeking by trying to figure something out or make it make sense. Now this I agree with. The mind actually can't know anything. There is nothing true at the level of the mind, the best the mind can do is see what's not. Now, what's left when all that's false has been stripped away / seen through? Yes I am awaken but so are you and everyone else in the true sense of it. It's easy to quote a guru. You don't actually KNOW this. Something like this would only be known once realization has dawned. If you are looking for something more that is a mistake. Again, this is not about more. Looking for more as you said is a mistake. This is about becoming and knowing less. There is no more and this is why the seeking can lead to a miserable life Depending on the "person" awakening can be rather unpleasant, terrifying, miserable, depressing. When one starts to wake up to the fact that everything they've every known was false and that everything they thought they were was a lie, it can be extremely difficult. This I KNOW. But it's also been brought to my attention that the awakening process is not totally miserable for everybody, just not uncommon. which can also be good because then you may just exhaust yourself, feel hopeless and just give up and sometimes this is needed. Sometimes! Depends on where one's at in their journey. The only thing that is required to "wake" up is to stop! Can you do just that without adding anything? Stop and be still and look at yourself for once. Again, you don't know this. You are not awake, therefore you actually have no idea what the ONLY requirement is. Also, stopping and looking at yourself are two different things. Looking at yourself is not the same as giving up. Ramesh: “What is the significance of the statement ‘No one can get enlightenment’? This is the very root of the teaching. It means that it’s stupid for any so-called master to ask anyone to do anything to achieve or get enlightenment. The core of this simple statement means, according to my concept, that enlightenment is the annihilation of the ‘one’ who ‘wants’ enlightenment. If there is enlightenment – which can only happen because it is the will of God – then it means the ‘one’ who had earlier wanted enlightenment has been annihilated. So no ‘one’ can achieve enlightenment and therefore no ‘one’ can enjoy enlightenment.” This doesn't mean that no action must be taken. It just means there's no doer behind those apparent actions. David Carse in Perfect Briliant Stillness sums this up beautifully: Of course if it is in the dream of All That Is for a mind/body object to appear to 'do' any of these things, then it will happen: something for the dream characters to do while the dream lasts. Students of the Teaching often struggle to reconcile the idea of free will with that of determination; the idea that 'you are always already All That Is and there is nothing you can do to attain it,' with admonitions to earnestness in self-inquiry, questioning, and investigation. But there is no conflict: the teaching of 'always already' does not mean you must stop all efforts. That stopping itself would be an effort!
If you are to understand the teaching, then 'you,' as an ego, as an identified 'self,' will be motivated to perform what is necessary for that understanding to occur. If studying or meditating or working are to happen, they will happen. That itself is part of the 'always already.' They are not important in themselves, but they will happen if they are to happen.
The complete Understanding is not likely to happen while sitting on your butt, avoiding the elements of the Teaching, refusing to face your misconceptions, and thinking only of everything else. But what appears as motivation and deliberation, earnestness and determination, choice and action is simply the operating of the mechanism by which the whole manifestation unfolds. The misperception is to take it personally, as "your" motivation, "your" deliberation, "your" choice and action; it is completely impersonal, simply the totality unfolding as it is. It is what you always already are.There is no doer, hence there is no free will. As for the non-person writing up this post... it will be exercising some of that illusory free will and "doing" what needs to be done until TRUTH dawns (or until it doesn't).
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Feb 7, 2011 18:01:10 GMT -5
I thought I'd add one more thing... I don't claim to know any more than you do, Michael. The only thing that I am certain of is that "I" CAN'T in fact know anything at all. But that's not to say that I won't disagree, haha
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Feb 7, 2011 18:06:47 GMT -5
But of course I am awaken you see what you are pointing to a "special" awakening that you think exist somewhere that is a mistake. What I have seen can not be expressed in words and the best pointers do no justice to this whatever this is. I will say it's not of this world but it is also who you are. I know David's book I have both the ebook and audio book but here again it matters not what he says or anyone really it only matters what you see. To compare one person's seeing with another is folly at best. The bottom line I have for your post is you are over thinking and trying too hard. All that is going to do is build up your mind more nothing else. Just stop trying to find fault with anything including my words and begin there it will reward you much better. missed that last little post. well I will say that is a good way to approach this not knowing anything. Peace Michael
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Feb 7, 2011 19:24:23 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 7, 2011 21:27:31 GMT -5
I like that Carse quote. The question of free will or no free will has no answer because the question is misconceived. The person who is supposed to be at the root of both options is conspicuously absent, which of course is the whole point.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Feb 7, 2011 22:34:56 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 7, 2011 23:37:34 GMT -5
Yup, good stuff. He reminds me a bit of Jed Mckenna.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Feb 8, 2011 11:06:56 GMT -5
"Just stop trying to find fault with anything including my words and begin there it will reward you much better."
I don't think that ivory or mamza are trying to find fault.
"Almost every post you make is a quote from someone you feel was enlightened ... "
And so the beat goes on ...
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 8, 2011 14:36:30 GMT -5
The beauty of 'awakening' is that it does away with the doer, the ego... And the reason for this, is that, the one, cannot stand in the light of the other. It's really a tell tale sign for those who believe, that they're awakened. That being a sense of arrogance in their demeanor, although hidden from them, it's quite evident to an outside observer. I'm not saying this is the case here, but just as a reference, for those who have fooled themselves, into believing they're awakened...
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Feb 8, 2011 15:06:33 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not from what I see nothing is done away with it's all the play of oneness.
TRF read your post and ask yourself how do you know awakening does away with doer and ego by who's beauty. The beauty in your mind that thinks it should be like that? Are you awaken I could ask but I shall not go into that trap. I would suggest of you not to put a package around awakening and feel that package is for everyone or even for yourself. All you are doing is using your mind to deduced what you think, feel is so. There is a folly in that. It keeps you away from what is for you.
Peace Michael
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Feb 8, 2011 20:12:40 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not from what I see nothing is done away with it's all the play of oneness. TRF read your post and ask yourself how do you know awakening does away with doer and ego by who's beauty. The beauty in your mind that thinks it should be like that? Are you awaken I could ask but I shall not go into that trap. I would suggest of you not to put a package around awakening and feel that package is for everyone or even for yourself. All you are doing is using your mind to deduced what you think, feel is so. There is a folly in that. It keeps you away from what is for you. Peace Michael Yes, Micheal, ...'from what I see'...just exactly, where is this seeing centered or coming from? You see, your trying to form a higher opinion, using the very same instrument that your denouncing as pure folly. You do see the folly in that don't you? Or do you believe that your folly has some greater importance or value?
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Feb 8, 2011 20:50:27 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not from what I see nothing is done away with it's all the play of oneness. TRF read your post and ask yourself how do you know awakening does away with doer and ego by who's beauty. The beauty in your mind that thinks it should be like that? Are you awaken I could ask but I shall not go into that trap. I would suggest of you not to put a package around awakening and feel that package is for everyone or even for yourself. All you are doing is using your mind to deduced what you think, feel is so. There is a folly in that. It keeps you away from what is for you. Peace Michael Yes, Micheal, ...'from what I see'...just exactly, where is this seeing centered or coming from? You see, your trying to form a higher opinion, using the very same instrument that your denouncing as pure folly. You do see the folly in that don't you? Or do you believe that your folly has some greater importance or value? If you think so than you think so and so be it it. I will say again with respect I see what you are doing and it has nothing to do with what you think it does but that's fine. You seem to have this thing with awaken or not or thinking how it is when awakening comes etc. TRF awakening comes to no person, think about it how can it? Is there really a person to be awaken? But back up lets not go even that far do you see the folly of putting on limitations of what awakening is when it comes to no one or more to the point has not come to you? Yes people will say I woke up and I would ask who woke up because clearly there is no you or is there do you really believe we have all these selves covering a whole world and these proposed selves are all waking up when in truth as David Carse says there is no one home? You the you that is not real is free to believe whatever it wants does it make it so? Does it make what I am typing here so? I can go on and on with this but why, no need to make you wrong , me right or you right , me wrong the point is until you see the understanding of what is it's pure folly to say that it does not include something. I can say in truth it has to includes all for all is what is. In truth there is one not 2 which means all that is, is a river of consciousness flowing doing it's thing and I will tell you it is still 1 not 2. Michael
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 8, 2011 21:34:56 GMT -5
Jeff Foster, in a couple of his talks, has said. (Paraphrased) 'People think Jeff must have found what he was looking for or he wouldn't be here talking about it, but Jeff never found what he was looking for..... Jeff failed to awaken.'
|
|