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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2011 15:42:14 GMT -5
What's truly a mystery to me, is how the absolute, the creator of our breathtaking universe, the unimaginable power of what is... can be fooled by the power of the human mind and the mind doesn't even exist... Very strange.. Also, when God wakes up from the dream, say through a Buddha, or Maharishi, why does he seem to forget himself, in the billions of other unique human expressions? I know it is futile to ask about such things, but it sure is baffling... It's not futile, actually. The key to understanding how You can be fooled is to notice that You are innocent and have always been innocent. IOW, the contemplative mind that gets fooled or not is 'inside' the dream and not 'outside' and yet all thoughts are formed from 'outside'. That is, from the undifferentiated intelligence that You are. Very much like your nightly dreams, 'you' are not thinking from outside 'your' dream but only from within, and so you can't reason that it is only a dream or that there are no dragons or whatever. Only after you wake up in the morning can you see how you were fooled. The actual 'Awakening' of God through a vehicle is not the acquisition of some knowledge by God, it is the falling away of delusion. The 'human' delusion is superimposed on Beingness, like a boat on the ocean. The boat doesn't confuse the ocean, and so when it sinks, it doesn't clear up confusion.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 15:44:22 GMT -5
One last point. The Infinite does not actually forget Itself. It simply fails to recognize Itself until two conditions are met--(1) It evolves the capability of abstraction and (2) abstractions become so unsatisfying that It is forced to leave abstractions behind. One might say that until the intellect appears the Infinite always revels in Its isness. Through human beings, because of where they reside on the spectrum of evolutionary development, It has usually imagined that It is something other than what It is. This case of mistaken identity has almost always led to unnecessary suffering. When the Infinite, through a human body/mind, finally discovers the truth of Its being, It perceives both the power as well as the limitations of the intellect. It can then relax and go back to reveling in It's isness without being troubled by the intellect. THIS IS THAT REVELING! Ha ha ha. Can you dig it? ZD where do you get this stuff! How do you know it can be relaxed?, how do you know where we are in this spectrum of evolutionary development. You must read a lot more than I. Michael
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Post by zendancer on Feb 5, 2011 15:50:24 GMT -5
One last point. The Infinite does not actually forget Itself. It simply fails to recognize Itself until two conditions are met--(1) It evolves the capability of abstraction and (2) abstractions become so unsatisfying that It is forced to leave abstractions behind. One might say that until the intellect appears the Infinite always revels in Its isness. Through human beings, because of where they reside on the spectrum of evolutionary development, It has usually imagined that It is something other than what It is. This case of mistaken identity has almost always led to unnecessary suffering. When the Infinite, through a human body/mind, finally discovers the truth of Its being, It perceives both the power as well as the limitations of the intellect. It can then relax and go back to reveling in It's isness without being troubled by the intellect. THIS IS THAT REVELING! Ha ha ha. Can you dig it? ZD where do you get this stuff! How do you know it can be relaxed?, how do you know where we are in this spectrum of evolutionary development. You must read a lot more than I. Michael Ha ha. This stuff can't be got from reading. Chortle chortle.
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2011 16:01:06 GMT -5
What's truly a mystery to me, is how the absolute, the creator of our breathtaking universe, the unimaginable power of what is... can be fooled by the power of the human mind and the mind doesn't even exist... Very strange.. Also, when God wakes up from the dream, say through a Buddha, or Maharishi, why does he seem to forget himself, in the billions of other unique human expressions? I know it is futile to ask about such things, but it sure is baffling... that same type of baffling happens over here all the time. especially with this concept of self. if it's just imagined, or an illusion, the thickness of a mirage, or a thought, how can it be so insidious? how, in the moment, can what is -- this -- be so easily obscured? just another question, but it comes up. What holds the attention (Your attention) here is the interest in what's happening here, fueled by the promise of it getting better, which it does seem to for a while. This speaks to the seemingly random nature of the 'awakening event'. The interest in the illusion must be exhausted or there simply isn't any interest in noticing what's actually going on in spite of the belief that there is, and this happens through clarity and through suffering. The clarity leads to the falling away of what's not true, and the suffering forms the willingness to notice what IS true.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 16:01:43 GMT -5
Yeah right chuckle chuckle back ZD
Michael
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 16:05:19 GMT -5
I think Ramana and Nis are rolling over in their grave when then saw what was going on with non duality and Oprah give me a break ZD.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2011 16:09:19 GMT -5
I've bothered ZD with this question a few times before.... chances are the answer will lead to more experiences 'you' will have. At least that's what happened here. I've been giiven lots of advice but unfortunately the only thing I've gotten out of it is this: if something happens and ends in time, it was an experiences founded on the idea of 'you'. Even that's not so good of a pointer because then your mind can hook onto the idea and generate experiences that fit the description. Things can get mighty complicated in the mind. Coincidentally, even the noticing of 'the absolute' seems like an experience. Yeah thanks it's all mind that is the humor of this the illusion playing it's own words with illusion. What it gets you as you have said is more experiences which are also illusion. No one can speak the truth here or anywhere as it's through the body/mind and with always be a lie no matter how nice it sounds and how right it sound. Peace Michael I don't think it would be fair to say what Buddha and Jesus and the like said was all lies. The Truth that can be spoken is not the Truth because of the limitations of language and conceptualization, but there's a difference between pointing at the moon and pointing at the scrubble at your feet. You don't throw away a hammer because it doesn't work on screws, you accept it's limitations and use it appropriately. (I don't mean hitting people over the head with it, but that has it's place too.)
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 16:14:45 GMT -5
It's still lies anything we say if you really look at it is a lie. Some just sound a lot better and closer to the truth than others. Hey I am not against lies, surely enough of them been said here. It's interesting though how you have a certain perception around this word "lies" that you feel it needs some defense here more programing? Oh I have hammered in screws before you just need a big hammer and a fast arm Michael ps you wrote "because of the limitations of language and conceptualization" This is not why it's a lie guess again?
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Post by zendancer on Feb 5, 2011 16:24:18 GMT -5
I think Ramana and Nis are rolling over in their grave when then saw what was going on with non duality and Oprah give me a break ZD. Michael Ramana and Nis can't be rolling over in their graves because they are both here, now, and they're both laughing and laughing. Give you a break? Give you a break? If I had a zen stick, I'd break it over your head. (actually I wouldn't, because your hardheadedness is a delightful challenge, but I would certainly pantomine the act.) Ramana and Nis are two more useless attachments you need to throw away. LOL
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2011 16:33:35 GMT -5
The difference between getting flashed and being the flasher is determined entirely by where you place yourself in the whole flashing scenario. Who is the you and where is the place The body/mind is an illusion in the sense that it is not what you are. It DOES appear and it IS your expression in form. What is expressing, regardless of what is expressed, IS the Absolute. The expression, by itself, is not an illusion. It's just an expression. The moment it becomes a flasher victim, illusion is created. Same old stuff doesn't interest me muchI don't know anything. I don't know that I am a mind/body and I don't know that separation is true and I don't know that there's something called 'the Absolute' or something called 'Grace' or that anything can be known absolutely. I know that none of these things are known or can be known or have any ultimate relevance. So where does that leave 'me'? Pretty much nowhere, or if you like, everywhere. Same thing. There seems to be a lot of space in nowhere/everywhere. As Zen alluded to, what the heck is it? Who knows? But it's pretty clear where the question comes from, and it also has no ultimate relevance. This is excellent probably the best post at least for me that I have read of yours. Thank you for being honest not that you are not.
What we're talking about is really this whole process of drawing boxes around infinity and chiseling out pieces. We could talk at length about how and why this is done, but the question is what happens when you put down the chisel and back away slowly? The whole structure of chiseled pieces collapses back into infinity, along with all the questions about the chiseled pieces and the need to find more chiseled pieces and to arrange them in some kind of harmonious structure. AgreedSeems like I keep pointing back to this imaginary chiseled structure here because mind keeps trying to find this infinity thingy. Surely it's clear that if it were found, it would be yet another chiseled piece. No guru ever found the God piece, so what is being looked for? What I'm suggesting is looking at the pieces scattered all around and noticing that you chiseled them out. They might look like Michelangelo's David or they may look like something Timothy Leary put together after a trip, but it only means what it means to you. Well you know the story Michelangelo dragging a very large stone up the road and passer by asks why are you dragging such a large stone and his reply there is a Angel inside and I am going to release her.
Michael
Yup, that's what a stone meant to Michelangelo. To me it means I have to pay somebody to drag it off.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 16:39:42 GMT -5
I think Ramana and Nis are rolling over in their grave when then saw what was going on with non duality and Oprah give me a break ZD. Michael Ramana and Nis can't be rolling over in their graves because they are both here, now, and they're both laughing and laughing. Give you a break? Give you a break? If I had a zen stick, I'd break it over your head. (actually I wouldn't, because your hardheadedness is a delightful challenge, but I would certainly pantomine the act.) Ramana and Nis are two more useless attachments you need to throw away. LOL Thanks it is good to be appreciated even as the zen stick is falling OF course they are here and now ZD but you don't need such a serious nature with your response just because you have than big zen stick Michael
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 16:42:36 GMT -5
Ok let's change the tune just for a second Superbowl anyone? Stealers or Packers? I'm giving odds
Sorry for the rest of you out there please feel free to ignore this post.
Michael
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2011 16:44:52 GMT -5
It's still lies anything we say if you really look at it is a lie. Some just sound a lot better and closer to the truth than others. Hey I am not against lies, surely enough of them been said here. It's interesting though how you have a certain perception around this word "lies" that you feel it needs some defense here more programing? Oh I have hammered in screws before you just need a big hammer and a fast arm Michael ps you wrote "because of the limitations of language and conceptualization" This is not why it's a lie guess again? No, I don't have some childhood issue with lies or sumthin. Hehe. What we mean by lies is usually purposeful deceptions. It simply doesn't fit what we're talking about. Your need to make it fit is interesting, though.
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Post by enigma on Feb 5, 2011 16:46:33 GMT -5
I think Ramana and Nis are rolling over in their grave when then saw what was going on with non duality and Oprah give me a break ZD. Michael Ramana and Nis can't be rolling over in their graves because they are both here, now, and they're both laughing and laughing. Give you a break? Give you a break? If I had a zen stick, I'd break it over your head. (actually I wouldn't, because your hardheadedness is a delightful challenge, but I would certainly pantomine the act.) Ramana and Nis are two more useless attachments you need to throw away. LOL Well, they are, after all, liars. Hehe.
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Post by michaelsees on Feb 5, 2011 16:51:02 GMT -5
No, I don't have some childhood issue with lies or sumthin. Hehe. What we mean by lies is usually purposeful deceptions. It simply doesn't fit what we're talking about. Your need to make it fit is interesting, though. No no not so fast but thanks for picking up my vibe. A lie is simply a untruth there does not need to be a bit of deception behind it. Michael
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