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Post by Portto on Sept 4, 2010 16:52:05 GMT -5
Stephen Hawking, presumably the smartest man alive, has recently published a book saying there's no creator God. The universe can create itself from nothing, for no reason whatsoever. People are worried. Religious leaders are outraged. Chipmunks continue to stock food for the winter.
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2010 20:42:02 GMT -5
Science doesn't discover, it creates.
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Post by Portto on Sept 4, 2010 21:54:29 GMT -5
Or, science is created along with everything else.
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2010 23:04:34 GMT -5
Well, yes, of course everything is created, but as I see it, creation unfolds from the inside out. Basically, questions as to the nature of the universe are, themselves, ultimately creative, and so if the answer to how the universe may have formed without God's help is sought, God will supply those answers. Hehe.
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Post by question on Sept 5, 2010 6:31:24 GMT -5
Science doesn't discover, it creates. Is "1+1=2" a creation?
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2010 7:25:02 GMT -5
Well, yes, of course everything is created, but as I see it, creation unfolds from the inside out. Basically, questions as to the nature of the universe are, themselves, ultimately creative, and so if the answer to how the universe may have formed without God's help is sought, God will supply those answers. Hehe. ;D Yes, God will supply the answers. Are questions causes and answers effects?
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2010 7:28:11 GMT -5
Of course! Where/what is it when you don't think about it?
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Post by question on Sept 5, 2010 8:04:29 GMT -5
Of course! Where/what is it when you don't think about it? This argument is brought up constantly and it is the worst argument, sorry. It only serves to show the instability of temporary subjective awareness, but never the temporary nature of anything that is beyond subjective exprience. It doesn't matter what I think about a logical axiom or whether it is present if I shut my brain off. One apple and another still make two apples. If it's merely a creaton then we probably should create an equation that one apple and another make three apples. This would solve all our world problems over night.
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2010 8:52:07 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what I think about a logical axiom or whether it is present if I shut my brain off. One apple and another still make two apples. What do apples and numbers have in common?
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Post by question on Sept 5, 2010 10:20:01 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what I think about a logical axiom or whether it is present if I shut my brain off. One apple and another still make two apples. What do apples and numbers have in common? Both can be counted. You can count stuff with apples, fingers, with an abacus and eventually with simplified abstract numbers. What an apple "really is" is not important in this context. We know what numbers are and we know that 1+1=2 and we know that by definition 1+1 can't equal 3. So unless someone proves that two apples can by virtue of some magical creation of new axioms turn out to be three apples I don't think that we have the right to define such elementary laws to be a "creation" and not an a priori fact of at least this our universe.
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 5, 2010 11:21:55 GMT -5
Too much over thinking here IMO. All you really need to do is to look at the intelligent design of the Universe to know that whatever brought the worlds into existence was intelligent way beyond what we view intelligence to be. In other words the intelligence always had to be here before the creation for the creation to happen and evolved as it has done. To be this is very simple stuff not to waste a lot of time on. But that's me. Questions like this have no answers as the question it self is not answerable. For example here's another question "If God is all powerful can he create a rock big enough that he cannot move" What is your answer to that if you could only use a yes or a no?
I may be wrong but I do feel we are just breaking through the most outer veil of what we know as science so much more to come if the world is still around in 100 years which I very much doubt. We have been greedy pigs for too long here and the world is over due for a nice hot bath.
peace michael
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2010 11:25:59 GMT -5
Both can be counted. You can count stuff with apples, fingers, with an abacus and eventually with simplified abstract numbers. I fail to see numbers and arithmetical operations as something other than abstract concepts linked to assumptions about the world.
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2010 11:31:17 GMT -5
All you really need to do is to look at the intelligent design of the Universe to know that whatever brought the worlds into existence was intelligent way beyond what we view intelligence to be. There's another theory called "the bad design." Have you seen this short video? www.youtube.com/v/YCnGf37iiKU?fs=1&hl=en_US
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 5, 2010 12:25:24 GMT -5
my point exactly and we are still here their is no such thing as luck. The odds against us still being around are greater than all of this just happening with no intelligent benefactor. You do realize this type of questioning has no answer. With some there is doubt and others not a bit. It shall always be like this IMO michael quote author=porto board=misc thread=971 post=9555 time=1283704277] There's another theory called the bad design. Have you seen this short video? www.youtube.com/v/YCnGf37iiKU?fs=1&hl=en_US[/quote]
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Post by question on Sept 5, 2010 12:50:15 GMT -5
Both can be counted. You can count stuff with apples, fingers, with an abacus and eventually with simplified abstract numbers. I fail to see numbers and arithmetical operations as something other than abstract concepts linked to assumptions about the world. Pretty accurate assumptions, though. An assumption is something that is up for debate, something that can potentially be falsified. I don't see a valid reason why we should claim "1+1=2" to be merely an assumption. I'm not saying that math exists seperately somewhere in platonic space. The way I see it is that water flowing down, a bug crawling on a leaf, a supernova, gravity, light, math, it's all the same unified thing. Your body functions right here and now, no light no body, no gravity no body. All the concepts that physics can distinguish all adhere to laws (maybe the laws are changing over time, but even if so, the change itself isn't random) which can be described amazingly accurate in mathematical language. There is no way to seperate an apple from the forces that make it exist in the first place. There is no way to seperate these forces from the principle (which can be described in mathematical language) by which they operate.
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