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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2010 14:07:46 GMT -5
Mathematical formulations are a way of 'talking about' what is happening. The assumption is that they represent fundamental laws which determine what is happening. If you were on a planet where bubbles continually formed on the ground, rose in the air, spun around three times, smiled and then popped, you could write a mathematical formula to describe this behavior, or any behavior. You would then declare this a fundamental law by which this behavior MUST occur under whatever conditions you defined in your formula, but really you're just describing what DOES occur. You think you're discovering a principle when in reality you're just creating laws; you're just talking about what is observed using different symbols.
However, what I mean when i say science creates rather than discovers is that, in the largest context, creation and perception are the same. Subject and object, perceiver and perceived, creator and created all collapse into a singular movement.
The apparently subjective foundation of science is an appearance only, and as human consciousness comes closer to this realization, it is expressed in all forms, including 'scientific discovery'. The transcending of human consciousness, and the collapse of the objective foundation of science, are precisely the same point of convergence.
We could create a formula that represents this singular point which we can call "All there is, is Consciousness."
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 5, 2010 15:59:31 GMT -5
Now now of course there is a difference from discovery a law and creating one. It's just common sense what is not that common anymore. For example the law of gravity. we never created such a law. Guess what now the law of gravity was here long before us. It not only holds us firmly planted on the ground but also holds the solar system together, the moon the sun the stars the planets all have their livelihood due to Mr. Gravity. You are correct of course that observing plays a part. If you keep seeing people floating around instead of walking you might change your present idea on what gravity is. As said in the Matrix some laws can be bent, some you can change completely and some are just the way they are. In either case one can never prove their is a God or intelligence by a Mathematical formula. We as humans will always need a wee bit of our emotions to firmly accept something as fact. IMO cheers michael
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Post by question on Sept 5, 2010 16:10:01 GMT -5
Hi Enigma, here we go again "Mathematical formulations are a way of 'talking about' what is happening." - Agreed. "The assumption is that they represent fundamental laws which determine what is happening." - Agreed. But you probably meant to say that all science is kind of absolutizing itself and wants to make us believe that they have the whole truth or if not then very soon. Sometimes scientists claim such things, but it's more like a personal opinion or at best philosophy that is not operational within the application of science. The majority of scientists would not make such foolish claims. I'd say that the central assumption is that the world is somehow coherent and follows rules. Mathematical formulations are a way to represent those rules. Some representations (such as 1+1=2) are accurate and some probably aren't. It's work in progress and it will probably always be, there will always be scientific discussion, science never will be absolutized. But only because some formulas don't seem to be applicable to reality, doesn't mean that we should throw away the whole thing and claim that even what "1+1=2" refers to is merely a creation of the mind or an assumption that has nothing to do with what "really is". You exaggerate and misrepresent scientific methodology in your bubble-planet example. "However, what I mean when i say science creates rather than discovers is that, in the largest context, creation and perception are the same. Subject and object, perceiver and perceived, creator and created all collapse into a singular movement. The apparently subjective foundation of science is an appearance only, and as human consciousness comes closer to this realization, it is expressed in all forms, including 'scientific discovery'. The transcending of human consciousness, and the collapse of the objective foundation of science, are precisely the same point of convergence. We could create a formula that represents this singular point which we can call "All there is, is Consciousness." - Sounds cool, but so far I see no indication towards a scientific validatation of the claim that "all there is, is consciousness."
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2010 16:16:58 GMT -5
Well, you don't know what was "here before us" unless you were here before you were here. The entire universe is created now, as you perceive it.
I can't seriously have a discussion as to what parts of the 'dream' validate the reality of the dream. I could tell stories about the cool dragon in my dream last night, but they would just be stories.
From your 'Awakened' perspective, Michael, you must see that there isn't anything outside of you, yes? From whence cometh the laws you speaketh of?
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Post by Portto on Sept 5, 2010 17:15:50 GMT -5
- Sounds cool, but so far I see no indication towards a scientific validatation of the claim that "all there is, is consciousness." Consciousness is the only thing you really know. What is there when there's no consciousness?
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2010 19:15:41 GMT -5
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 5, 2010 19:16:16 GMT -5
Hello, You have to be careful here. Knowing "what is" does not give you the right for deny-ability. As long as you are on this world, as long as you can feel your feet touch the ground you are my friend in a 3D world or I should say at least a 3D world. It's good to use some common sense again. This 3D world we are in is sealed in time. The absolute, source whatever name you want the real you whatever, is outside and apart of time. However the 3D of you is not. That 3D you is bound by time and space . It has very certain definable boundaries and limits. IT exists in time, goes old in time, has families in time and passes on in time. To deny this would be akin of putting your head in the sand. Being awake does not mean you feel less, enjoy less, spend time less or anything less. As long as you have this 3D body you will be limited in time. That is the paradox Enigma and it's the very reason people have a hard time with this. You absolutely can be and are limited in a 3D world even though who you are, the absolute has no limits, has no space nor time. There are 2 groups of people in non duality from what I have seen. One group is very much like this group it takes things that exist in time in the 3D world such as math, science,and words and then hopes to expand them into and onto the absolute. It's a inward movement to hopefully beyond the outside. The other group looks at what is from the source, the absolute down into the 3D world. To them a paradox makes as much sense as 2x=6 x=3 makes to the group in the 3D world. That is really pretty much it as I see it from my perspective. IT's very easy to slip from one group into another group in fact the back and forth motion is the creator of "time" it's time itself. peace michael Well, you don't know what was "here before us" unless you were here before you were here. The entire universe is created now, as you perceive it. I can't seriously have a discussion as to what parts of the 'dream' validate the reality of the dream. I could tell stories about the cool dragon in my dream last night, but they would just be stories. From your 'Awakened' perspective, Michael, you must see that there isn't anything outside of you, yes? From whence cometh the laws you speaketh of?
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2010 20:09:02 GMT -5
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 5, 2010 20:37:29 GMT -5
The problem here is everything you say below are not based upon science nor facts. Time and space can be proven in the 3D world. What you are pointing to is only speculation. I am not saying that I don't agree with most of what you say below but you need to call it what it is and it is highly speculative by it's nature. From my experience a error has been made and on that error came everything you read/study or hear on nonduality.Why the error was made probably has to do with our human nature. We have a tendency to cal things a illusion when in fact they are not. To see what is we have to hold both opposites at once and in that paradox comes out truth. well been nice chatting to all have a good night peace michael Edit here is a excellent book on what we have been discussing here. "In 2003 Metzinger published the monograph Being No One. In this book he argues that no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. He argues that the phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent Self-model theory of subjectivity". Metzinger is praised for his grasp of the fundamental issues of neurobiology, consciousness and the relationship of mind and body. However, his views about the self are the subject of considerable controversy and ongoing debates." [ The attempt to separate these is likely where our difficulty lies. The world is not actually IN time. Time is an illusion happening in the world, which IS creation, which is not apart from that which creates. Hencely, when we look at how creation unfolds, we have to admit that it unfolds now, since there isn't another time for it to happen. Part of the unfolding is the illusion of time, but nothing suddenly makes time an actuality to which the source of creation somehow becomes obliged. Likewise, just because it appears that mankind creates and discovers doesn't imply that creation is bound by those ideas and must hand over creative ability and establish laws to be discovered.
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Post by enigma on Sept 5, 2010 22:46:25 GMT -5
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Post by zendancer on Sept 5, 2010 23:15:36 GMT -5
Sorry folks, I'm on vacation in Colorado and using a slow computer, so I'll have to keep this short.
Question: apples are imaginary, so the counting of apples is also imaginary. The mind is always thinking ABOUT reality; it never deals with reality directly. From the standpoint of the living truth 2+2=1, 5+5=1, and 3x3=1. There is only oneness; all else is imagination. There is nothing wrong with symbolizations of abstractions, but it is all imaginary.
Michael: Time and space are illusions. Gravity, electricity, light, human beings, and rocks are also illusions. These are words that stand for abstractions. Source is all. If you have experienced Source, surely you know this. Right this moment I am looking around, and all I see is _________________, a unified suchness. If I wished to use imagination, I could imagine ______________as if it were a computer sitting on a table with fingers typing on the keys. When the mind is silent, however, only ______________ is seen and __________is beyond form or void.
As Enigma pointed out, science is now on the verge of dealing with _________________, and this is why we see new books appearing with titles, such as "The Matter Myth." With quantum mechanics the mind reached its limit of pictorial representation and scientists were forced to realize that reality, in truth, is weirder than the mind can comprehend. A huge paradigm shift occurred when Newtonian mechanics was replaced by Quantum mechanics, but a much bigger paradigm shift will occur in the near future when rank and file scientists realize that there is only oneness. Many years ago, just for fun, I asked a number of professors at a local university if they understood that subatomic particles are ideas rather than real things. Only one guy, a professor of nuclear engineering, understood what I was talking about. In the future, probably within fifty years, the entire scientific community will understand.
When Michael came on this website and said, essentially, "I am the one," he was correct. I prefer to rephrase this statement as "I and the One are One" because there is less hubris contained in that formulation, but the bottom line is that there is only One. Everything is contained within that One-- time, space, things, relationships, symbols, ad infinitum. There is only here and now in oneness. Take a look around. What do the eyes see if the mind remains silent? Only _______________________________! We use the word "One" to point to THAT. If we contemplate THAT deeply enough, the known universe will collapse into emptiness. One minute of seeing THAT is all it takes to totally blow the mind. Afterwards? Laughter, tears, and speechless awe. We can only bow in wonder and gratitude to THAT.
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 5, 2010 23:30:09 GMT -5
Come on Enigma sure you are speculating . What you are doing fits perfectly in the classic term of speculation.
Wholeness is never split. And paradoxes do make sense however making sense is base directly on the view you have. As I said before if your view is the outside (source) looking in you will see what I see. If your view is inside looking out you will try to make sense of it. That's enough of this simply because you do not get this if you did you would have a "Ah I see" moment. Truth is never accepted well at first all I can say or have to say to stay in my truth and integrity it is not like you say. No big deal really it's not that I'm special or this is special but a day will come where you will see. It's really impossible to give a accurate explanation like they say "you have to be there"
peace michael
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2010 0:25:13 GMT -5
Come on Enigma sure you are speculating . What you are doing fits perfectly in the classic term of speculation. Wholeness is never split. And paradoxes do make sense however making sense is base directly on the view you have. As I said before if your view is the outside (source) looking in you will see what I see. If your view is inside looking out you will try to make sense of it. That's enough of this simply because you do not get this if you did you would have a "Ah I see" moment. Truth is never accepted well at first all I can say or have to say to stay in my truth and integrity it is not like you say. No big deal really it's not that I'm special or this is special but a day will come where you will see. It's really impossible to give a accurate explanation like they say "you have to be there" peace michael If your view is "outside looking in" you see that there is no outside and no inside. If Wholeness is never split, what opposites are you holding to find out truth? The paradox dissolves when you put away that butcher blade you call a mind. All paradox forms in the mind. Once you have made the parts into actuality (actual numbers, facts, laws, objectivity) you can never superglue them back together. Oneness is the absence of all your bifurcating notions.
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 6, 2010 1:14:29 GMT -5
ZD and Enigma,
But of course I know exactly where both of you are coming from You have been preaching to the Chior I could say the same thing word for word in fact I have in the past. This is not my first Rodeo. Both of you are missing something and I cannot really tell you what it is. Everything I have said here is true and everything you have said is true. Where the trouble is and neither of you see it is when you think that one must be wrong for the other to be correct. It's simply not so. There is more. I am writing a book about this which covers my life mostly about the last couple of years. There are revelations that as of this day have not been published. This is not something new. Niz had the same thing in one of his videos he speaks about what happens to everyone 8 days before they are born. Ask yourself is there any other place in writings old and new that gives you this info the 8 in 8 days that this will be your permanent state? I challenge anyone to find this. You won't because it's not there it's only in Niz talk that he says this. Now how do you think he knows this. Seriously how would he know that in 8 days before you are born whatever state you are in realized or not that is where you are forever. It took a revelation on my part to finally make sense of what Niz was pointing to without it you will never understand what he means.
In the same way I know. I will only say this much for now. Reality can co-exist with Reality. Well that's it you will have to wait for the book to come out to know more.
peace michael
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Post by enigma on Sept 6, 2010 1:21:05 GMT -5
I'm all a-twitter with anticipation, michael.
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