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Post by zendancer on Sept 8, 2010 9:46:53 GMT -5
Okay something you might want to check out. I think it's west of Boulder netherland or something that is where in famous Antelope ranch is. If you make a right there you should be on a nice paved road that goes into Brainards state park. It's been lie 20 years but I think it's about 10 miles. The park is great cuz you can get to the Continental divide in a hour or so pretty cool. Now this park is at 10,000 ft. You drop a little bit and on your right you will see one of the first hippie towns in the US called Ward. Very cool place where they barter for stuff, teach yoga in the church nice flash of the past. Also in that area is Kytro the new age group ranch. Just out side of Ward there use to be a beautiful ashram called Sacred mountain ashram. It's worth a visit if it's still open. The guru that founded the place believed in his followers to be celibate but he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and not too long after that he died. Enjoy it's a fun area. peace michaael Michael: No, I don't live in Boulder. I'm on vacation here. I live in Tennessee. This body likes to climb mountains and this body's wife likes to dance. This is one of the only places these bodies can go where we can do both things every day. Last night Argentine Tango (this is where the screen name Zendancer comes from); today, a five mile hike in the valley below Mt. Audubon. Tomorrow, Estes Park, and tomorrow night Waltz and Foxtrot. This could be Nirvana except that the mountains are still on fire. Michael: Yep. That's where we were yesterday. Nederland, Ward, Brainard Lake, etc. The hippies are still there driving brightly-painted VW buses! That's one of my favorite hiking areas in Colorado. Mt. Audubon, the Isabelle Lake Glacier, Long Lake, Blue Lake, and three trails that go over the Divide. Lots of fun.
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 8, 2010 10:09:09 GMT -5
Cool I enjoy the people in those places more than the actual places. Ward is a very tripping town. I camped at Brainards for a week in my small dome tent. I remember one night it was raining and lightning all over the place. at 10,000 ft you are much closer to that stuff watching lightning hit the ground I looked up and in the center of my dome I had my propane lantern hanging thinking its a bomb ready to explode. Those were good days. peace michael Michael: Yep. That's where we were yesterday. Nederland, Ward, Brainard Lake, etc. The hippies are still there driving brightly-painted VW buses! That's one of my favorite hiking areas in Colorado. Mt. Audubon, the Isabelle Lake Glacier, Long Lake, Blue Lake, and three trails that go over the Divide. Lots of fun. [/quote]
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Post by zendancer on Sept 8, 2010 18:24:33 GMT -5
Yes, lightning above 10,000 feet is a trip! I've had some experiences with that. When you get to the 14,000 foot levels, the mountains create their own weather patterns. I climbed Long's Peak last year (it was a tough slog for a senior citizen body-- LOL) and Long's Peak has recorded winds above 200 mph on several occasions (each time it broke the measuring equipment after pegging the windspeed meter). Today we hiked up to Emerald Lake below Hallet's Peak in the Rocky Mountain National Park. Tomorrow I'll tackle Flattop Mountain and see if I can find a route from there to the top of Hallet's. Lots of fun. This afternoon it started raining in the mountains behind Boulder, so with any luck the fires will soon be under control. As of this morning, the Four-Mile Canyon Fire had burned through 11 square miles of forested land.
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Post by klaus on Sept 8, 2010 18:26:29 GMT -5
Crikey, I take a few days off to move house and does it kick off or what? enigma, Michael asked you about the Fibonacci numbers, if you don't have an answer say so, but don't ignore the question. Klaus, you sound like you're giving Enigma a telling off here, but isn't it the general dominance of Advaita that's bothering you rather than some particular point - which the author appears to have abandoned anyway? You see that a lot in relationships, that resentment builds up and starts to seep out over any irritation you can get your hands on. Before you know it you're having a screaming argument about the ketchup - to pick a memorable example. Besides, I took M's Fibonacci question to be rhetorical. I do agree with you that Advaita has been the only horse in town for the last year or so. Perhaps the more prolific posters could consider easing back a little and allowing new comers to hold on to their sacred cows for a short while at least? On the other hand, Michaelsees came here with - as I see it - more of a desire to teach than a desire to learn. When he didn't get the positive feedback he was expecting, he started reacting and stopped listening. And then the air turned blue. And bold. Just my take on it. Cheers, Peter Peter, Yes, this forum has become myopic in that Adviata has become as you say "the only horse in town" and I urge anyone on this forum to express themselves and not be intimidated by any one point of view. Zendancer, I find your posts to be generally one track responses not conducive to generate a dialogue and they lead to a dead end. Enigma, I find your most of your responses flippant which shows an underlying disrespect for others' ideas, opinions etc. Klaus
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Post by enigma on Sept 8, 2010 19:40:16 GMT -5
HmmI always said this Enimga for the record. But remember creation will abide by the laws of natural or whatever cuz we make up all those laws. peace michael What I began with is that science creates rather than discovers, which was disagreed with as I recall. Since we make up all those laws, creation isn't abiding by those laws. The laws are part of 'our' creation. Again, perception and creation are the same.
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Post by Portto on Sept 8, 2010 20:56:57 GMT -5
Yes, lightning above 10,000 feet is a trip! I've had some experiences with that. When you get to the 14,000 foot levels, the mountains create their own weather patterns. I climbed Long's Peak last year (it was a tough slog for a senior citizen body-- LOL) and Long's Peak has recorded winds above 200 mph on several occasions (each time it broke the measuring equipment after pegging the windspeed meter). Today we hiked up to Emerald Lake below Hallet's Peak in the Rocky Mountain National Park. Tomorrow I'll tackle Flattop Mountain and see if I can find a route from there to the top of Hallet's. Lots of fun. This afternoon it started raining in the mountains behind Boulder, so with any luck the fires will soon be under control. As of this morning, the Four-Mile Canyon Fire had burned through 11 square miles of forested land. That sounds like a lot of fun. Sot not only that you get to hike till you drop, you also get to experience first-hand the wildfires that are all over the news now.
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Post by question on Sept 9, 2010 7:14:17 GMT -5
Actually Zendancer has proven to have an impressive wealth of knowledge and understanding about a lot of subjects outside of advaita. A lot of dead ends (Consciousness is all there is, everything is Oneness, you are That, etc) with ZD, though, at least for me, and his solutions are "Practise harder, make centre stronger, just do it", which is very frustrating and rarely resolves a discussion. But I'm sure ZD is of tremendous help to a lot of people and so his style is more than justified. About Enigma, I like the fact that his responses show a "disrespect" for others' opinions. I wouldn't want to have it any other way, I like it rough and straightforward when it comes to intellectual discussion, so long as it doesn't get personal, and I have yet to see Enigma get personal. I see though, how he can be intimidating. The problem for me is that most of the time Enigma quickly arrives at a point from which what he says appears to me as "untestable theories", and sometimes he acknowledges that, in effect saying "take it or leave it, I'm right, you're wrong, don't care what you think". Which is extremely unsatisfying and I believe that he should do better if he does want to be taken seriously outside of the advaita context, but he still sometimes leaves me wondering "Am I an idiot? Or is he a nut?". Either way, Enigma is a heck of a challenge and one of the brightest advaita minds out there. There, I think that's enough praise for you two troublemakers, enjoy it for I don't say such things often. I will get back to the "math: creation or discovery" topic as it is far from being resolved. But life has been awful lately, not sure when I will have time to respond.
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Post by michaelsees on Sept 9, 2010 9:35:15 GMT -5
Sounds like lots of fun. Wow you must be in great shape to do all that. Good for you. 11 sq miles forest burn is probably good for the forest. How do I know that a nice burn is good for the forest? Read on true story. In my younger years I was a much different person than today as far as being a person goes. It was 20 years ago I was doing a work exchange at a retreat center North of Phoenix. A beautiful place of yurts and a big main house nestled in the forest. I was smoking a lot during this time and I loved to hike. so one late morning when my chore were done I want on a small hike for a couple hours. When I came back I went out to the terrace and sat wih the owner of the place and some other workers. The owner loved his wines which gave me a instant liking to the guy as wines were also my favorites. I never did understand and still don't what all the fuss is over beer. A bitter carbonated beverage that smells bad. Any how after a few mins one of the workers jumps up from his seat and say look smoke then everyone is up. It was not as if the smoke was going to consume us. It was around a couple miles from the retreat center. I look as surprise as anyone else then I thought well that's odd I was walking in the area just a hour ago. I did not say this aloud though. Now all the activity around the place is amp up big time and in less that 1/2 hour we have trucks with firefighters on them coming up. Then we have 2 great planes dumping red fire stopping stuff on the fire. The planes were very cool both different with their own custom paint job. We had ourselves a great air show. In a few hours the fire was contained and at the end of the day it was burned out. Then I remembered that old dry stump I had used to to put a butt of my cigarette out. I felt bad and I was going to confess my sins until I heard some of the guys talking about the cost pf putting out fires and how many thousands of dollars just one dump costs. But then came some news I never would had expected a conversation officer was up there and he said this fire did that forest a big favor. We have not had a burn n that area for over 50 years and it needed it. I thought to myself i he really saying this or hopeful thinking on my part. Then he went on to say how fire can be a forest friend burning the grasses and little stuff but leaving the big trees cause the forest to regenerate itself. at once I felt better, I almost felt like I did a great deed and no one knows it. I would not push my luck though I did not go smoking in the woods after that. So fires can be friends of forests. Peace michael Yes, lightning above 10,000 feet is a trip! I've had some experiences with that. When you get to the 14,000 foot levels, the mountains create their own weather patterns. I climbed Long's Peak last year (it was a tough slog for a senior citizen body-- LOL) and Long's Peak has recorded winds above 200 mph on several occasions (each time it broke the measuring equipment after pegging the windspeed meter). Today we hiked up to Emerald Lake below Hallet's Peak in the Rocky Mountain National Park. Tomorrow I'll tackle Flattop Mountain and see if I can find a route from there to the top of Hallet's. Lots of fun. This afternoon it started raining in the mountains behind Boulder, so with any luck the fires will soon be under control. As of this morning, the Four-Mile Canyon Fire had burned through 11 square miles of forested land.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 9, 2010 11:19:15 GMT -5
Klaus: You wrote that my posts are generally one-track responses, do not generate dialogue, and lead to a dead end. I certainly hope that my posts are one-track responses because I am always pointing to only one thing. In an earlier post I confessed to being a one-trick pony. People who are interested in seeing through the illusions created by dualistic thought may or may not find my posts helpful. That isn't up to me. I do exactly what I have to do and leave the rest up to God. If I post something here, it is because I have no choice in the matter.
As for generating dialogue, that isn't my primary job description either, although I seem to be involved in a great deal of it, judging from the hundreds of emails I've received through this site. I currently correspond with people all over the world in numerous different spiritual traditions. I see virtually no difference between Mystical Christianity, Mystical Islam, Mystical Judaism, Advaita Vedanta, Zen, Tibetan Dgogzen, Byron Katie's "The Work", and the teachings of hundreds of other non-dual traditions. IMO they are all pointing to the same thing--freedom from the mind and a relaxed at-one-ness with reality. People who discover who they are, beyond name and form, tend to be very happy because they no longer resist "what is." They quit battling with reality and go with the flow. I tell people that their thoughts are the source of their problems, and I encourage them to discover what happens if they shift their focus to reality and away from than their thoughts.
As for my posts leading to a dead end, I certainly hope that is the case, if by "dead end" we mean transcending the mind and discovering the freedom that lies in directly experiencing what is always here and now. Like Rumi, though not as eloquently, I encourage people to leave the prison of the mind and find that infinite field of play where words evaporate in the morning sun like dew.
Klaus, how would you feel without any thoughts? How would you feel if you weren't thinking about what I or Enigma should be doing? How would you feel if you got rid of all your ideas about how the world should be? How would you feel if you didn't compare yourself with anyone else? How would you feel if you walked out into the sunshine and looked at the world without reflection? Every one of my posts are pointing to THAT. Cheers.
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Post by klaus on Sept 9, 2010 18:19:18 GMT -5
Klaus: You wrote that my posts are generally one-track responses, do not generate dialogue, and lead to a dead end. I certainly hope that my posts are one-track responses because I am always pointing to only one thing. In an earlier post I confessed to being a one-trick pony. People who are interested in seeing through the illusions created by dualistic thought may or may not find my posts helpful. That isn't up to me. I do exactly what I have to do and leave the rest up to God. If I post something here, it is because I have no choice in the matter. As for generating dialogue, that isn't my primary job description either, although I seem to be involved in a great deal of it, judging from the hundreds of emails I've received through this site. I currently correspond with people all over the world in numerous different spiritual traditions. I see virtually no difference between Mystical Christianity, Mystical Islam, Mystical Judaism, Advaita Vedanta, Zen, Tibetan Dgogzen, Byron Katie's "The Work", and the teachings of hundreds of other non-dual traditions. IMO they are all pointing to the same thing--freedom from the mind and a relaxed at-one-ness with reality. People who discover who they are, beyond name and form, tend to be very happy because they no longer resist "what is." They quit battling with reality and go with the flow. I tell people that their thoughts are the source of their problems, and I encourage them to discover what happens if they shift their focus to reality and away from than their thoughts. As for my posts leading to a dead end, I certainly hope that is the case, if by "dead end" we mean transcending the mind and discovering the freedom that lies in directly experiencing what is always here and now. Like Rumi, though not as eloquently, I encourage people to leave the prison of the mind and find that infinite field of play where words evaporate in the morning sun like dew. Klaus, how would you feel without any thoughts? How would you feel if you weren't thinking about what I or Enigma should be doing? How would you feel if you got rid of all your ideas about how the world should be? How would you feel if you didn't compare yourself with anyone else? How would you feel if you walked out into the sunshine and looked at the world without reflection? Every one of my posts are pointing to THAT. Cheers. Zendancer, You asked me how I would feel... I honestly would feel dead living beyond name and form...THAT. Even though I've had glimpses of THAT I feel it is not the natural condition of woman/man. All arises in THAT so what is referred to as illusion is also THAT, so basically when one realizes that the illusion is THAT(the illusion being the mundane reality) it should make no difference if there is name or form or no name or form. Pointing beyond to THAT just brings one back to where they started-mundane reality, which really is far from mundane. Klaus
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Post by enigma on Sept 10, 2010 2:14:36 GMT -5
Marie was doing some sort of 'being present' practice the other day, which in her case means sitting around with the thought of not thinking, which she found quite boring and tedious. Hehe. I don't really 'get' the point of practices anymore, but i know there is one. Anyhoo, I was talking about how it's a little like being on this ego mountain and wanting to get to this enlightened mountain, and it seems like you have to go through the valley to get there. I called it the valley of the shadow of death, but i don't really know that's what the quote means. I just meant that one has to empty oneself of what isn't really there before he can get to the enlightenment mountain, and this isn't so fun, especially if Ego mountain is on fire. Hehe.
The funny thing is, there is no ego mountain, and no valley of the shadow of death. The whole game is watched from the top of enlightened mountain. The game is interesting and the idea of it ending is not....so much....really, but none of that has anything to do with what you are and where you are looking from. The peaks and valleys (exciting and boring) are both being watched by You.
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Post by souley on Sept 10, 2010 3:35:31 GMT -5
Alot of people ask questions and want to have a logical explanation or answer to the questions. For example, "why would math be imaginary, it clearly works?". ZD and enigma cant give a logical explanation fitting with the questioners current belief system, so the answer cant possibly be satisfying. Eventually it ends up being in ZDs case "just look at what is" and in enigmas case "take it or leave it". So why cant they give a satisfying logical explanation? I do believe it is possible to do so, but it would involve a huge amount of logical explanations just to break down big parts of the western belief system, before a logical explanation could get to the point. For example 1+1=2 cant be explained as illusion because we already assume counting. So then we would first have to break down counting, and to break down counting, we have to break down "things", which is enormously hard, it is about equal to enlightenment. It is driven so deep into our mind that it cannot be "explained away". Even if you attacked the problem of "things" logically from 1000 angles, so that you could intellectually see the truth, your mind would take a good while to absorb it before it would begin to intuition without the idea of "things". So maybe in the end ZD or enigma cant help any further then "look inside for 1-10 years and maybe you'll see". It is just very difficult and tedious to take the mental route and try to explain all these things, so it will come to some kind of dead end. And this is of course assuming that enigma and ZD are "right". Which I can't verify for myself yet. We could also probably argue that the discussions isn't interesting "for waking up", since 1+1=2 is a very practical idea and doesn't need to get questioned. We are conditioned to wear clothes, but we don't have to stop doing that.. The spiritual teacher trying to "wake up" a student might think that questioning "I am" or something like that is better, becoming less motivated to discuss these intellectual philosophies. Well I don't know, I do really appreciate these discussions so I would too like more satisfying explanations and less dead ends
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Post by vacant on Sept 10, 2010 4:33:59 GMT -5
I, for one, am very content with this forum. Just as it is. Some contributors address my sensitivities more, and true, some less, but then I don't have to read the whole thing. I am very grateful for both ZD's and Enigma's One-pointed-ness —feels like I have to say this since this thread seems to put those 2 on trial!— and there I find some almost daily reminders to take the trash out... Many thanks to all here, this board thing is precious.
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Post by peanut on Sept 10, 2010 12:38:01 GMT -5
Vacant..i am with you. ZD has been so helpful. There was a huge opening this summer and i doubt it would have happened without his pointing. Of course maybe "i" was just ready haha He also answered all personal e-mails and continues to so do with clarity and encouragement. E has been just as helpful from a different perspective by his challenging me and keep me laughing through this shift. They aren't right or wrong but true and genuine. i am deeply grateful.
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dei
Junior Member
Posts: 54
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Post by dei on Sept 10, 2010 13:52:11 GMT -5
I think of ZD and Enigma as "true north"... sometimes i need that pointer... any questions i have can just as easily be answered within, or by googling or not answered at all (which is one reason i seldom post)... i can share insights but i question their general usefulness. I don't even sign in much but i read the board regularly. I am grateful that we have such clarity available here. Namaste
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