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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 14:39:35 GMT -5
I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'.  Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. Sort of like....I've got a very adorable small dog resting on my legs right now, and I really don't want to move him...perhaps especially as I've only got a couple of days with him before we leave......but also.....I REALLY need to go pee. I have an actual feeling of being stuck lol Good example? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 14:53:27 GMT -5
Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. You mean the experience of being 'between a rock and a hard place'? Yes, but that multipled. |
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Practice
Sept 26, 2024 14:57:22 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 14:57:22 GMT -5
All why questions have the same exact answer? (I'm not asking for a reply). That's just what This is doing. In Tai Chi Chuan it is said that 4 ounces can deflect a thousand pounds. But you have to know the how of it. The how of it calls for an individuated response. This is where you go wrong, saying there is absolutely no individuated response. The individual is not necessarily a piece of clay at the hands of the Whole. That's the whole point. Conditioning plays a bigger role in a single person's life, than the Whole. Conditioning is the obstacle. Does conditioning operate outside the Whole? Of course not. The Whole is what conditions the Whole when it is manifesting as a human being. There is no SVP doing anything; it only appears that way when one imagines that one is a separate volitional organism. There is no actual "me" who thinks thoughts or chooses anything. Thoughts spontaneously appear in awareness, and if one is attached to the idea that one is a SVP having thoughts and responding to thoughts, then that's just THIS in the form of a human who has been deluded by the concensus paradigm through which it's been conditioned. Using the wave metaphor, it's like a wave thinking it is separate from the ocean from which it arises. A wave appears and later it disappears. Where does it go when it disappears? What a wave IS is still here even after it disappears, but it is no longer in the form of a wave. What we ARE is the transformative process of THIS ceaselessly changing from one form into another form. That's correct, until it isn't. Making a conscious effort is not easy, it goes against everything accepted thing. But everything, further, begins there. You are locked in to your realization, in a very similar way Gopal is. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 14:57:38 GMT -5
You mean the experience of being 'between a rock and a hard place'? Yes, but that multipled. Okay, in seriousness, I've experienced some intense 'rock and hard places'. They are sort of fascinating with hindsight. Life at its most intense. Perhaps. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 15:10:28 GMT -5
Yes. We have developed a role for almost every circumstance in life, work, play, job, home, vacation, husband, wife, son, daughter, mother, father; a hundred different roles. But a wreck can be a situation for which we do not have a conditioned prefabricated role. Gurdjieff said this is a shock which puts us in essence. But we soon revert to a preprogrammed role. But I suspect some people like the taste of this, they are adrenaline junkies. But correct practice also puts one in essence. The practice self-remembering is also called the first conscious shock. But a wreck is an accidental shock, we can't afford to wait upon such an accident. Can you be sure that the spiritual path you are following isn't another preprogrammed one? Perhaps all spiritual paths are just more subtle expressions of preprogramming. To be clear, this isnt just a question I ask of you, I ask it of me too. And also to be clear, I'm not opposed to paradox. Even if spiritual paths are preprogrammed, that doesn't mean that I reject them. I consider growth to be natural, but in my experience, growth can sometimes happen in such way that seems...wrong. But sometimes, wrong is right. Gurdjieff said and wrote that the masses follow a very slow path of the evolution of consciousness, thousands of years. Don't look for the sudden mass awakening everybody seems to be predicting. Gurdjieff taught a way that by it's very nature can't be preprogrammed. At some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, on this path you are blocked at every turn. There are barriers you have to get through, over or under. Sometimes, you have to stand completely alone. There are arid periods, like walking through a desert. The path is all about awareness and attention, nothing else for a very long time. But I had a mentor and a model, to show what's possible. I know what's possible. The Gurdjieff way, everything possible for a man can be completed in one lifetime, this lifetime. Gurdjieff doesn't directly talk about a future lifetime. He said tomorrow is a disease. You can do inner work only in the present moment. Are you alive right now? You are only guaranteed right now. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 15:19:18 GMT -5
Can you be sure that the spiritual path you are following isn't another preprogrammed one? Perhaps all spiritual paths are just more subtle expressions of preprogramming. To be clear, this isnt just a question I ask of you, I ask it of me too. And also to be clear, I'm not opposed to paradox. Even if spiritual paths are preprogrammed, that doesn't mean that I reject them. I consider growth to be natural, but in my experience, growth can sometimes happen in such way that seems...wrong. But sometimes, wrong is right. Gurdjieff said and wrote that the masses follow a very slow path of the evolution of consciousness, thousands of years. Don't look for the sudden mass awakening everybody seems to be predicting. Gurdjieff taught a way that by it's very nature can't be preprogrammed. At some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, on this path you are blocked at every turn. There are barriers you have to get through, over or under. Sometimes, you have to stand completely alone. There are arid periods, like walking through a desert. The path is all about awareness and attention, nothing else for a very long time. But I had a mentor and a model, to show what's possible. I know what's possible. The Gurdjieff way, everything possible for a man can be completed in one lifetime, this lifetime. Gurdjieff doesn't directly talk about a future lifetime. He said tomorrow is a disease. You can do inner work only in the present moment. I understand, and I like what you said here a lot. But, on my path at least, it's necessary to consider sometimes.....what if I'm wrong? What if I've been wrong? What if it's all wrong? Personally, I have found humility, openness, and spaciousness in that. I guess you see blindspots in others, but do you consider the possibility that there's a blindspot in your approach? |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 26, 2024 15:21:20 GMT -5
The Whole is what conditions the Whole when it is manifesting as a human being. There is no SVP doing anything; it only appears that way when one imagines that one is a separate volitional organism. There is no actual "me" who thinks thoughts or chooses anything. Thoughts spontaneously appear in awareness, and if one is attached to the idea that one is a SVP having thoughts and responding to thoughts, then that's just THIS in the form of a human who has been deluded by the concensus paradigm through which it's been conditioned. Using the wave metaphor, it's like a wave thinking it is separate from the ocean from which it arises. A wave appears and later it disappears. Where does it go when it disappears? What a wave IS is still here even after it disappears, but it is no longer in the form of a wave. What we ARE is the transformative process of THIS ceaselessly changing from one form into another form. That's correct, until it isn't. Making a conscious effort is not easy, it goes against everything accepted thing. But everything, further, begins there. You are locked in to your realization, in a very similar way Gopal is. How does a conscious effort differ from any other effort? Can efforting be unconscious? Who or what is it that would be making any kind of effort? Who or what is it that would imagine that such an effort is either easy or hard? When a thought arises, such as, "I should do thus and so," to whom is that thought arising, where did it come from, and what is it that has that thought or sees that thought? If there is a "someone" who thinks s/he is making an effort, that "someone" is the illusory "me." It's just a trick of the mind that reinforces the idea of self-referentiality. Can it be seen that all of these ideas about consciously doing anything are just thoughts appearing on the screen of awareness that are utterly unnecessary? |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 26, 2024 15:29:10 GMT -5
Interesting posts ... The Blind Men and The Elephant: A Short Story about Perspective  |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 26, 2024 16:02:15 GMT -5
Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. Sort of like....I've got a very adorable small dog resting on my legs right now, and I really don't want to move him...perhaps especially as I've only got a couple of days with him before we leave......but also.....I REALLY need to go pee. I have an actual feeling of being stuck lol Good example? All our problems are subjective. Their outcomes depend only on our expectations; even for our apparently 'false' problems. That's the solution for the choice of cars 'false' problem too. Choose whatever, but generate a positive expectation for the outcome that is important to you: to be perceived in a favorable light by the others. |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 26, 2024 16:11:44 GMT -5
I believe that we are here neither to armchair live, nor to immersed or engaged live, but to lucidly explore our selves and the inner-reality as reflected into the framework of the physical-reality.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 16:42:25 GMT -5
Gurdjieff said and wrote that the masses follow a very slow path of the evolution of consciousness, thousands of years. Don't look for the sudden mass awakening everybody seems to be predicting. Gurdjieff taught a way that by it's very nature can't be preprogrammed. At some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, on this path you are blocked at every turn. There are barriers you have to get through, over or under. Sometimes, you have to stand completely alone. There are arid periods, like walking through a desert. The path is all about awareness and attention, nothing else for a very long time. But I had a mentor and a model, to show what's possible. I know what's possible. The Gurdjieff way, everything possible for a man can be completed in one lifetime, this lifetime. Gurdjieff doesn't directly talk about a future lifetime. He said tomorrow is a disease. You can do inner work only in the present moment. I understand, and I like what you said here a lot. But, on my path at least, it's necessary to consider sometimes.....what if I'm wrong? What if I've been wrong? What if it's all wrong? Personally, I have found humility, openness, and spaciousness in that. I guess you see blindspots in others, but do you consider the possibility that there's a blindspot in your approach? In the beginning for most people there is all kinds of doubt. All the trouble, is self. Self filters even what can reach us. But we don't know self is the problem. So self can take us right out of any teaching, before we even have a chance to understand it. When I was a kid, up until about age 14, one of my uncles was a dairy farmer. He had a bull named Govenor. Governor lived unfenced, very near the barn. But he had a ring in his nose and he was on a chain about 12 foot long. So he mostly lived in a 24 foot diameter ring. Dairy cows stay pregnant most of the time, because pregnant cows give more milk. So Governor had a pretty good life, anyway. But uncle EC could lead him by the chain anywhere he was needed, a bull's nose is pretty tender. We are like Governor. We have a ring in our nose, ego, and life, the events of life, leads us around, just like Governor. But eventually you can realize you are on a right path, then the question is, can you continue. All obstacles are really inner, self is the obstacle. In the Gurdjieff teaching, an aim is primary, you can't really work without an aim. But you have to decided what your aim is, and what are you willing to do to achieve your aim. At the point you are 100% sure, that's called having a permanent center of gravity. That still doesn't mean you will achieve anything permanent, it means you won't give up. For us, everything has to be verified. So you can reach points of knowing, but you keep moving into the unknown. If you have only head-knowledge, or merely memory, you get left behind. We don't talk about experience, because if you hear what's ahead, you can imagine instead of experience something real. Instead of describing experience, we asked question about experience. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 17:27:52 GMT -5
That's correct, until it isn't. Making a conscious effort is not easy, it goes against everything accepted thing. But everything, further, begins there. You are locked in to your realization, in a very similar way Gopal is. How does a conscious effort differ from any other effort? Can efforting be unconscious? Who or what is it that would be making any kind of effort? Who or what is it that would imagine that such an effort is either easy or hard? When a thought arises, such as, "I should do thus and so," to whom is that thought arising, where did it come from, and what is it that has that thought or sees that thought? If there is a "someone" who thinks s/he is making an effort, that "someone" is the illusory "me." It's just a trick of the mind the reinforces the idea of self-referentiality. Can it be seen that all of these ideas about consciously doing anything are just thoughts appearing on the screen of awareness that are utterly unnecessary? , that's what operating on autopilot is. Most everything we do is from unconscious brain processing, from preprogramming. I agree with you more than you know. Everything we think, feel, do and sense, just happens, merely happens. That's nonvolition, that's nonvolition from the Gurdjieff standpoint. So all we can do in the beginning and for a very long time, is observe what occurs. But we can observe what occurs. But a conscious effort depends upon the kind of attention. After I had worked 7 years at electrical work, only the boss and one other person had an electrical license or a county card. The inspectors started cracking down, you weren't supposed to work on a job without a person having a license or county card, and several of us did. So the boss said if anyone passed either the county test or the state test, you'd get a dollar raise. This was 1987, a dollar raise was like a two years worth of raises. So a few of us started taking classes. So I studied hard, classes every week. Within 6 month I passed the state on a Thursday and the county test two days later on Saturday (no $2.00 raise, we understood going in, only $1.00). The county rest was actually harder than the state test. But all that effort was merely ordinary effort, mechanical efforts. The effort was with interested attention, I was interested in a $1.00 raise. Even ATA-T is done with interested attention. A conscious effort is done with directed attention. The difference, further, a conscious effort never just happens. A conscious effort can never become a habit. William James comes the closest I've ever seen put into writing on what a conscious effort is. I stumbled up his Principles of Psychology Vol one and Vol two. There is a shorter version called The Briefer Course, but it has the full account about attention. It's near the beginning, I think the chapter is titled Attention. He understands it because he says you can do it in the beginning for at most one second, or even a fraction of a second. Most of what we call observing is merely a thought watching another thought. But attention is completely separate from thought. Because it's separate, we can observe. But, as zazeniac said, simple doesn't mean easy. I guess you have done walking meditation? ......But you see, I have a reason to observe. It's in a way similar to studying passing the electrical code test to get a dollar raise (the code book then was about 2 inches thick). But in a way it's also immeasurably different. In a thread of long ago I compared making conscious efforts, to juggling. When you cease making the effort, the 'bean bags' fall to the floor. It's quite possible you have never made a conscious effort. When you hang sheetrock, or pour concrete, that's a mechanical effort. But (if) you can observe yourself pouring concrete, with directed attention, that's a conscious effort. A conscious effort, is the beginning, of further. It's the beginning of the not-illusory "me". The actual doing, is not in any sense a thought. There is no self-referentiality involved, because it's beyond self. For us, essence doesn't mean the Whole of All That Is. Essence is the true individuation, self is imaginary. Essence is kind of the 'hardware', self is the software, the programming, the conditioning, it's called Imaginary 'I'. That's the basic difference between your view and my view. And essence is a seed, like an acorn. Possibility, is to become an oak tree. But it's only possible via conscious efforts. The seed germinates via conscious efforts. The seed has to cease to be a seed to fulfill its potential. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 17:45:24 GMT -5
I understand, and I like what you said here a lot. But, on my path at least, it's necessary to consider sometimes.....what if I'm wrong? What if I've been wrong? What if it's all wrong? Personally, I have found humility, openness, and spaciousness in that. I guess you see blindspots in others, but do you consider the possibility that there's a blindspot in your approach? In the beginning for most people there is all kinds of doubt. All the trouble, is self. Self filters even what can reach us. But we don't know self is the problem. So self can take us right out of any teaching, before we even have a chance to understand it. When I was a kid, up until about age 14, one of my uncles was a dairy farmer. He had a bull named Govenor. Governor lived unfenced, very near the barn. But he had a ring in his nose and he was on a chain about 12 foot long. So he mostly lived in a 24 foot diameter ring. Dairy cows stay pregnant most of the time, because pregnant cows give more milk. So Governor had a pretty good life, anyway. But uncle EC could lead him by the chain anywhere he was needed, a bull's nose is pretty tender. We are like Governor. We have a ring in our nose, ego, and life, the events of life, leads us around, just like Governor. But eventually you can realize you are on a right path, then the question is, can you continue. All obstacles are really inner, self is the obstacle. In the Gurdjieff teaching, an aim is primary, you can't really work without an aim. But you have to decided what your aim is, and what are you willing to do to achieve your aim. At the point you are 100% sure, that's called having a permanent center of gravity. That still doesn't mean you will achieve anything permanent, it means you won't give up. For us, everything has to be verified. So you can reach points of knowing, but you keep moving into the unknown. If you have only head-knowledge, or merely memory, you get left behind. We don't talk about experience, because if you hear what's ahead, you can imagine instead of experience something real. Instead of describing experience, we asked question about experience. I get the general idea even if I don't quite get some of the specifics. I'm of the opinion that the human way in general is....''if it ain't broke, then don't try and fix it''. And actually, I think that's pretty sensible. Unless there's a strong reason, there's no point in rocking a decent boat. And I see that your mode of functioning, your spiritual 'way' seems to work good for you, so that's cool. If you've got a blind spot...or if I've got a blind spot...they will reveal themselves in divine timing. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 18:13:02 GMT -5
Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. Or Just do, when doing is needed…and don’t do when doing is not needed. 4 years eleven months ago my Mother fell and crushed her knew replacement. It seemed not like a big deal, surgery was planned to fix it, she was 89. They were almost finished, she had an embolism which irreparably damaged her heart. He said a piece of fat or a piece of bone entered and damaged her heart. The doctor told us about 5:00 in the afternoon. He said we are giving her 5 chemicals, or she would die. He said she will die within 15 minutes after the chemicals are stopped. My Mother, not having a living will or directions, the decision to stop the chemicals was up to me and my sister. I understood that's what he was telling us. Mother eventually came out of anesthesia, and was conscious. She couldn't talk, as she had a breathing tube down her throat. It took my sister a couple of hours to understand, Mother was going to die, the doctor had to paint the picture more clearly, Mother could not possibly go on living. I finally told sister I wanted to tell Mother she was going to die, I would want to know. I told her about 9:00, she understood. That day was my sister's son's birthday, so my sister finally said, let's wait until midnight so Mother won't die on son's birthday. The whole staff was very patient, they said we can wait as long as you need. But after midnight sister couldn't say yes, stop the chemicals. She was torn. It took another 3 hours, with a very little slight pressure from my brother-in-law, for her to finally say, OK, stop the chemicals. But then the hospital had a procedure to follow, so it took another hour before they actually stopped the chemicals. Then she died within 5 minutes. She was asleep when she died. There was about 12 people there, more had been there, and left, probably at least 25 people, family had been called in, the staff gave up trying to stick to rules. BTW, I was also with my Father when he died two years earlier. Sometimes the doing is obvious, sometimes you may as well flip a coin. Sometimes life decides. ~~~~~~~~while I'm here, my boss of 33 years and longer as a friend, died two weeks ago. He was 71, a year younger than me. He went to sleep, nothing wrong, didn't wake up. They don't know why he died. He had one slight problem which was under control. He was still working, he had worked that day. At the funeral I saw some people I hadn't seen in almost eleven years, everybody was obviously older, except me. No, not true. But only a year ago did I start to feel ~old~, but only a little old. BTW, if you don't have a will and a living will and instructions, get it done so family won't have to decide in such circumstances. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 18:19:31 GMT -5
Or Just do, when doing is needed…and don’t do when doing is not needed. 4 years eleven months ago my Mother fell and crushed her knew replacement. It seemed not like a big deal, surgery was planned to fix it, she was 89. They were almost finished, she had an embolism which irreparably damaged her heart. He said a piece of fat or a piece of bone entered and damaged her heart. The doctor told us about 5:00 in the afternoon. He said we are giving her 5 chemicals, or she would die. He said she will die within 15 minutes after the chemicals are stopped. My Mother, not having a living will or directions, the decision to stop the chemicals was up to me and my sister. I understood that's what he was telling us. Mother eventually came out of anesthesia, and was conscious. She couldn't talk, as she had a breathing tube down her throat. It took my sister a couple of hours to understand, Mother was going to die, the doctor had to paint the picture more clearly, Mother could not possibly go on living. I finally told sister I wanted to tell Mother she was going to die, I would want to know. I told her about 9:00, she understood. That day was my sister's son's birthday, so my sister finally said, let's wait until midnight so Mother won't die on son's birthday. The whole staff was very patient, they said we can wait as long as you need. But after midnight sister couldn't say yes, stop the chemicals. She was torn. It took another 3 hours, with a very little slight pressure from my brother-in-law, for her to finally say, OK, stop the chemicals. But then the hospital had a procedure to follow, so it took another hour before they actually stopped the chemicals. Then she died within 5 minutes. She was asleep when she died. There was about 12 people there, more had been there, and left, probably at least 25 people, family had been called in, the staff gave up trying to stick to rules. BTW, I was also with my Father when he died two years earlier. Sometimes the doing is obvious, sometimes you may as well flip a coin. Sometimes life decides. ~~~~~~~~while I'm here, my boss of 33 years and longer as a friend, died two weeks ago. He was 71, a year younger than me. He went to sleep, nothing wrong, didn't wake up. They don't know why he died. He had one slight problem which was under control. He was still working, he had worked that day. At the funeral I saw some people I hadn't seen in almost eleven years, everybody was obviously older, except me. No, not true. But only a year ago did I start to feel ~old~, but only a little old. BTW, if you don't have a will and a living will and instructions, get it done so family won't have to decide in such circumstances. That hit my emotions a bit. On my Dad's last three days I had to make tough decisions about medicine too. I slept only a couple of hours each night on those days. The challenging aspect for me is rarely emotion/feeling, it's more the intensity of 'energy' that comes with certain situations. |
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