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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 30, 2024 10:10:56 GMT -5
It seems many people here do not know what practice is. I've tried to show that by various posts over the years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sitting meditation is a great joy. The lotus or half lotus position makes it easier to breathe freely, to concentrate deeply, and to return to the state of mindfulness. But Zen should not be practiced only in the sitting position. We can practice as well while walking, eating, talking, working, and in all positions and activities. "What is a Buddha?" "A Buddha is one who lives twenty-four hours a day in mindfulness."
To practice sitting meditation is not just to reflect on a kung-an (koan), but to light the lamp of awareness in ourselves. If the lamp of awareness is not lit in us, we will continue to sit in the shadows of life and will never see our true nature.
Sitting is not to think, reflect or lose ourselves in concepts or discriminations. It is also not to remain immobile, like a stone or the trunk of a tree. How can we avoid two extremes of conceptualization and inertia? By dwelling in the present moment, right in the midst of our experience, under the lamp of mindfulness. Direct experience and awareness of direct experience are the way to avoid these extremes. pages 86, 87
I remember a short conversation between the Buddha and a philosopher of his time.
"I have heard that Buddhism is a doctrine of enlightenment. What is your method? What do you practice every day?"
"We walk, we eat, we wash ourselves, we sit down..."
"What is so special about that? Everyone walks, eats, washes, sits down..."
"Sir, when we walk, we are aware that we are walking, when we eat, we are aware that we are eating...When others walk, eat, wash, or sit down, they are generally not aware of what they are doing."
In Buddhism, mindfulness is the key. Mindfulness is the energy that sheds light on all things and all activities, bringing forth deep insight and awakening. ...
The first thing we have to do is return to life, to wake up and be mindful of each thing we do. Are we aware when we are eating, drinking, and even sitting in meditation? Or are we wasting our time in forgetfulness?
Mindfulness helps us focus our attention on, and know what we are doing. To begin to be aware of what we are doing, saying, and thinking is to begin to resist the invasion of our surroundings and by all of our wrong perceptions. When the lamp of awareness is lit, our whole being lights up, and each passing thought and emotion is also lit up. We wash our hands, dress, perform every actions as before, but now we are aware of our actions, words and thoughts. pages 25, 26
Zen Keys, A Guide to Zen Practice by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1974 (I think his first book).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is the correct explanation of what mindfulness actually is, in brief. (IOW, mindfulness is not +thinking, never has been, never will be). This also shows the difference between ordinary awareness, and awareness of. You have to come to understand this difference, there's a kind of taste to it, but there is definitely a difference you can come to experience. And eventually you can come to value one over the other, being aware of walking, versus merely walking. And as Thich Nhat Hanh said, when it's there all the time, then you're a Buddha.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 30, 2024 14:41:19 GMT -5
It seems many people here do not know what practice is. I've tried to show that by various posts over the years. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sitting meditation is a great joy. The lotus or half lotus position makes it easier to breathe freely, to concentrate deeply, and to return to the state of mindfulness. But Zen should not be practiced only in the sitting position. We can practice as well while walking, eating, talking, working, and in all positions and activities. "What is a Buddha?" "A Buddha is one who lives twenty-four hours a day in mindfulness." To practice sitting meditation is not just to reflect on a kung-an (koan), but to light the lamp of awareness in ourselves. If the lamp of awareness is not lit in us, we will continue to sit in the shadows of life and will never see our true nature. Sitting is not to think, reflect or lose ourselves in concepts or discriminations. It is also not to remain immobile, like a stone or the trunk of a tree. How can we avoid two extremes of conceptualization and inertia? By dwelling in the present moment, right in the midst of our experience, under the lamp of mindfulness. Direct experience and awareness of direct experience are the way to avoid these extremes. pages 86, 87 I remember a short conversation between the Buddha and a philosopher of his time. "I have heard that Buddhism is a doctrine of enlightenment. What is your method? What do you practice every day?" "We walk, we eat, we wash ourselves, we sit down..." "What is so special about that? Everyone walks, eats, washes, sits down..." "Sir, when we walk, we are aware that we are walking, when we eat, we are aware that we are eating...When others walk, eat, wash, or sit down, they are generally not aware of what they are doing." In Buddhism, mindfulness is the key. Mindfulness is the energy that sheds light on all things and all activities, bringing forth deep insight and awakening. ... The first thing we have to do is return to life, to wake up and be mindful of each thing we do. Are we aware when we are eating, drinking, and even sitting in meditation? Or are we wasting our time in forgetfulness? Mindfulness helps us focus our attention on, and know what we are doing. To begin to be aware of what we are doing, saying, and thinking is to begin to resist the invasion of our surroundings and by all of our wrong perceptions. When the lamp of awareness is lit, our whole being lights up, and each passing thought and emotion is also lit up. We wash our hands, dress, perform every actions as before, but now we are aware of our actions, words and thoughts. pages 25, 26 Zen Keys, A Guide to Zen Practice by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1974 (I think his first book). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is the correct explanation of what mindfulness actually is, in brief. (IOW, mindfulness is not +thinking, never has been, never will be). This also shows the difference between ordinary awareness, and awareness of. You have to come to understand this difference, there's a kind of taste to it, but there is definitely a difference you can come to experience. And eventually you can come to value one over the other, being aware of walking, versus merely walking. And as Thich Nhat Hanh said, when it's there all the time, then you're a Buddha. Practices can be helpful in many ways, but becoming attached to a practice is another pitfall on the path. I remember that the first time I heard an Advaita teacher say, "You can't practice your way to being what you already are," I thought, "WTF, practice is absolutely essential." I had been involved in a Zen tradition of rigorous practice, so what that teacher said made no sense at all. Later, however, I discovered that true freedom lies beyond practice or the idea of practice. As long as there's any sense of a "me" having to make an effort of any kind, true freedom will remain out of reach. The illusion of being a SVP is the primary obstacle, and if that illusion is penetrated, amazement, understanding, freedom, and equanimity will be the result. May all beings discover the Infinite nature of what they already are and always have been. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 1, 2024 6:17:39 GMT -5
It seems many people here do not know what practice is. I've tried to show that by various posts over the years. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sitting meditation is a great joy. The lotus or half lotus position makes it easier to breathe freely, to concentrate deeply, and to return to the state of mindfulness. But Zen should not be practiced only in the sitting position. We can practice as well while walking, eating, talking, working, and in all positions and activities. "What is a Buddha?" "A Buddha is one who lives twenty-four hours a day in mindfulness." To practice sitting meditation is not just to reflect on a kung-an (koan), but to light the lamp of awareness in ourselves. If the lamp of awareness is not lit in us, we will continue to sit in the shadows of life and will never see our true nature. Sitting is not to think, reflect or lose ourselves in concepts or discriminations. It is also not to remain immobile, like a stone or the trunk of a tree. How can we avoid two extremes of conceptualization and inertia? By dwelling in the present moment, right in the midst of our experience, under the lamp of mindfulness. Direct experience and awareness of direct experience are the way to avoid these extremes. pages 86, 87 I remember a short conversation between the Buddha and a philosopher of his time. "I have heard that Buddhism is a doctrine of enlightenment. What is your method? What do you practice every day?" "We walk, we eat, we wash ourselves, we sit down..." "What is so special about that? Everyone walks, eats, washes, sits down..." "Sir, when we walk, we are aware that we are walking, when we eat, we are aware that we are eating...When others walk, eat, wash, or sit down, they are generally not aware of what they are doing." In Buddhism, mindfulness is the key. Mindfulness is the energy that sheds light on all things and all activities, bringing forth deep insight and awakening. ... The first thing we have to do is return to life, to wake up and be mindful of each thing we do. Are we aware when we are eating, drinking, and even sitting in meditation? Or are we wasting our time in forgetfulness? Mindfulness helps us focus our attention on, and know what we are doing. To begin to be aware of what we are doing, saying, and thinking is to begin to resist the invasion of our surroundings and by all of our wrong perceptions. When the lamp of awareness is lit, our whole being lights up, and each passing thought and emotion is also lit up. We wash our hands, dress, perform every actions as before, but now we are aware of our actions, words and thoughts. pages 25, 26 Zen Keys, A Guide to Zen Practice by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1974 (I think his first book). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is the correct explanation of what mindfulness actually is, in brief. (IOW, mindfulness is not +thinking, never has been, never will be). This also shows the difference between ordinary awareness, and awareness of. You have to come to understand this difference, there's a kind of taste to it, but there is definitely a difference you can come to experience. And eventually you can come to value one over the other, being aware of walking, versus merely walking. And as Thich Nhat Hanh said, when it's there all the time, then you're a Buddha. Practices can be helpful in many ways, but becoming attached to a practice is another pitfall on the path. I remember that the first time I heard an Advaita teacher say, "You can't practice your way to being what you already are," I thought, "WTF, practice is absolutely essential." I had been involved in a Zen tradition of rigorous practice, so what that teacher said made no sense at all. Later, however, I discovered that true freedom lies beyond practice or the idea of practice. As long as there's any sense of a "me" having to make an effort of any kind, true freedom will remain out of reach. The illusion of being a SVP is the primary obstacle, and if that illusion is penetrated, amazement, understanding, freedom, and equanimity will be the result. May all beings discover the Infinite nature of what they already are and always have been. The practitioner is encouraged to delve deeply within to discover their original, stateless state. This beingness—quiet, still, alert, and alive—resides at the core of oneself. Nisargadatta points us all to seek and find this place, known as the I AM. Upon finding it, Nisargadatta advises abiding there as often and as long as possible. In this state, if one is fortunate, the Self will penetrate the self, leading to the realization of one's universal nature. Post-realization, one once again embodies the human form, but with a profound understanding of their true essence. This understanding reveals the interconnectedness of all life, the illusion of separateness, and the boundless nature of consciousness. It brings an unwavering inner peace, clarity, and a sense of unity with the cosmos, fundamentally transforming how one perceives and interacts with the world. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 1, 2024 11:00:47 GMT -5
Practices can be helpful in many ways, but becoming attached to a practice is another pitfall on the path. I remember that the first time I heard an Advaita teacher say, "You can't practice your way to being what you already are," I thought, "WTF, practice is absolutely essential." I had been involved in a Zen tradition of rigorous practice, so what that teacher said made no sense at all. Later, however, I discovered that true freedom lies beyond practice or the idea of practice. As long as there's any sense of a "me" having to make an effort of any kind, true freedom will remain out of reach. The illusion of being a SVP is the primary obstacle, and if that illusion is penetrated, amazement, understanding, freedom, and equanimity will be the result. May all beings discover the Infinite nature of what they already are and always have been. The practitioner is encouraged to delve deeply within to discover their original, stateless state. This beingness—quiet, still, alert, and alive—resides at the core of oneself. Nisargadatta points us all to seek and find this place, known as the I AM. Upon finding it, Nisargadatta advises abiding there as often and as long as possible. In this state, if one is fortunate, the Self will penetrate the self, leading to the realization of one's universal nature. Post-realization, one once again embodies the human form, but with a profound understanding of their true essence. This understanding reveals the interconnectedness of all life, the illusion of separateness, and the boundless nature of consciousness. It brings an unwavering inner peace, clarity, and a sense of unity with the cosmos, fundamentally transforming how one perceives and interacts with the world. Precisely. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2024 9:33:51 GMT -5
It seems many people here do not know what practice is. I've tried to show that by various posts over the years. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sitting meditation is a great joy. The lotus or half lotus position makes it easier to breathe freely, to concentrate deeply, and to return to the state of mindfulness. But Zen should not be practiced only in the sitting position. We can practice as well while walking, eating, talking, working, and in all positions and activities. "What is a Buddha?" "A Buddha is one who lives twenty-four hours a day in mindfulness." To practice sitting meditation is not just to reflect on a kung-an (koan), but to light the lamp of awareness in ourselves. If the lamp of awareness is not lit in us, we will continue to sit in the shadows of life and will never see our true nature. Sitting is not to think, reflect or lose ourselves in concepts or discriminations. It is also not to remain immobile, like a stone or the trunk of a tree. How can we avoid two extremes of conceptualization and inertia? By dwelling in the present moment, right in the midst of our experience, under the lamp of mindfulness. Direct experience and awareness of direct experience are the way to avoid these extremes. pages 86, 87 I remember a short conversation between the Buddha and a philosopher of his time. "I have heard that Buddhism is a doctrine of enlightenment. What is your method? What do you practice every day?" "We walk, we eat, we wash ourselves, we sit down..." "What is so special about that? Everyone walks, eats, washes, sits down..." "Sir, when we walk, we are aware that we are walking, when we eat, we are aware that we are eating...When others walk, eat, wash, or sit down, they are generally not aware of what they are doing." In Buddhism, mindfulness is the key. Mindfulness is the energy that sheds light on all things and all activities, bringing forth deep insight and awakening. ... The first thing we have to do is return to life, to wake up and be mindful of each thing we do. Are we aware when we are eating, drinking, and even sitting in meditation? Or are we wasting our time in forgetfulness? Mindfulness helps us focus our attention on, and know what we are doing. To begin to be aware of what we are doing, saying, and thinking is to begin to resist the invasion of our surroundings and by all of our wrong perceptions. When the lamp of awareness is lit, our whole being lights up, and each passing thought and emotion is also lit up. We wash our hands, dress, perform every actions as before, but now we are aware of our actions, words and thoughts. pages 25, 26 Zen Keys, A Guide to Zen Practice by Thich Nhat Hanh, 1974 (I think his first book). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is the correct explanation of what mindfulness actually is, in brief. (IOW, mindfulness is not +thinking, never has been, never will be). This also shows the difference between ordinary awareness, and awareness of. You have to come to understand this difference, there's a kind of taste to it, but there is definitely a difference you can come to experience. And eventually you can come to value one over the other, being aware of walking, versus merely walking. And as Thich Nhat Hanh said, when it's there all the time, then you're a Buddha. Practices can be helpful in many ways, but becoming attached to a practice is another pitfall on the path. I remember that the first time I heard an Advaita teacher say, "You can't practice your way to being what you already are," I thought, "WTF, practice is absolutely essential." I had been involved in a Zen tradition of rigorous practice, so what that teacher said made no sense at all. Later, however, I discovered that true freedom lies beyond practice or the idea of practice. As long as there's any sense of a "me" having to make an effort of any kind, true freedom will remain out of reach. The illusion of being a SVP is the primary obstacle, and if that illusion is penetrated, amazement, understanding, freedom, and equanimity will be the result. May all beings discover the Infinite nature of what they already are and always have been. I presume you actually read the Thich Nhat Hanh quotes. In that case I must also presume you do not understand what he wrote. For years you have continually insisted mindfulness means +thinking. It doesn't. Buddha said: I am awake. From the Thich Nhat Hanh quote, I think you could also say Buddha said: I am aware (24/7). Then, it's obviously not practice, it's just a state of being. That's also the meaning of Dzogchen, it's called the practice that isn't practice. Dzogchen is being the natural state, the state previous to thought, previous to feeling, previous to action, also called the Primordial state. But, it is being in that state. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 2, 2024 13:27:39 GMT -5
Practices can be helpful in many ways, but becoming attached to a practice is another pitfall on the path. I remember that the first time I heard an Advaita teacher say, "You can't practice your way to being what you already are," I thought, "WTF, practice is absolutely essential." I had been involved in a Zen tradition of rigorous practice, so what that teacher said made no sense at all. Later, however, I discovered that true freedom lies beyond practice or the idea of practice. As long as there's any sense of a "me" having to make an effort of any kind, true freedom will remain out of reach. The illusion of being a SVP is the primary obstacle, and if that illusion is penetrated, amazement, understanding, freedom, and equanimity will be the result. May all beings discover the Infinite nature of what they already are and always have been. I presume you actually read the Thich Nhat Hanh quotes. In that case I must also presume you do not understand what he wrote. For years you have continually insisted mindfulness means +thinking. It doesn't. Buddha said: I am awake. From the Thich Nhat Hanh quote, I think you could also say Buddha said: I am aware (24/7). Then, it's obviously not practice, it's just a state of being. That's also the meaning of Dzogchen, it's called the practice that isn't practice. Dzogchen is being the natural state, the state previous to thought, previous to feeling, previous to action, also called the Primordial state. But, it is being in that state. Well, I've always considered his "ATA-T" to emphasize "everything" that is not thought, so in that sense it's mindfulness/ATA tomatoes/tomatoes. From reading along over the years, he added the "-T" because people pointed out that "well, thoughts are actually happening". On one hand, this is just superficial semantics, but on the other, it comes down to what is meant by "natural state", so, as deep as it gets. One thing is for sure: thoughts about thought are a meandering distraction, which isn't to say that "watching the thinker" (in a way, the diametric opposite of ATA), can't be an effective practice.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2024 14:26:00 GMT -5
I presume you actually read the Thich Nhat Hanh quotes. In that case I must also presume you do not understand what he wrote. For years you have continually insisted mindfulness means +thinking. It doesn't. Buddha said: I am awake. From the Thich Nhat Hanh quote, I think you could also say Buddha said: I am aware (24/7). Then, it's obviously not practice, it's just a state of being. That's also the meaning of Dzogchen, it's called the practice that isn't practice. Dzogchen is being the natural state, the state previous to thought, previous to feeling, previous to action, also called the Primordial state. But, it is being in that state. Well, I've always considered his "ATA-T" to emphasize "everything" that is not thought, so in that sense it's mindfulness/ATA tomatoes/tomatoes. From reading along over the years, he added the "-T" because people pointed out that "well, thoughts are actually happening". On one hand, this is just superficial semantics, but on the other, it comes down to what is meant by "natural state", so, as deep as it gets. One thing is for sure: thoughts about thought are a meandering distraction, which isn't to say that "watching the thinker" (in a way, the diametric opposite of ATA), can't be an effective practice. If you actually attend, in the present moment, thoughts cease. A thought is ALWAYS a copy, of something. A copy always must occur, in time. So thinking always implies time. So if one properly attends, there is always -T. ATA-T is essentially sensing (there is attention to something visual, a sound, a smell, a taste, a body-sensation-feeling, in the sense of touch). If one just-senses, there is no thought. So you are correct. So watching the thinker, is exceptionally difficult, because, as said above, when you actually attend, thought stops. But partly my point is, ZD calls mindfulness, ATA+T. It's not. Anyone who says it is, is just incorrect, has been taught incorrectly. I posted the quote partly because Thich Nhat Hanh explains it correctly. You know the *mechanism* (you've explained it pretty well), the mechanism (conditioning) can operate with very little attention, in daydreaming, zero focused attention, this is the monkey-mind. It just spouts out thoughts. TNH uses the word aware, a close cousin of attend, in relation to mindfulness. And, if (any)one does not recognize the value of awareness-always, the trying, the wish to, well, that can't be taught, it has to be recognized. What we usually consider as watching the thinker, is usually just one thought watching another thought, which is mostly useless. And the natural state is not as deep as it gets. But what TNH is writing about, is the possibility of staying-in the natural state all the time (slightly ironic as it is not in-time). It's like a photon, itself, that doesn't experience time, as Einstein imagined as a teenager. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 2, 2024 21:57:29 GMT -5
Well, I've always considered his "ATA-T" to emphasize "everything" that is not thought, so in that sense it's mindfulness/ATA tomatoes/tomatoes. From reading along over the years, he added the "-T" because people pointed out that "well, thoughts are actually happening". On one hand, this is just superficial semantics, but on the other, it comes down to what is meant by "natural state", so, as deep as it gets. One thing is for sure: thoughts about thought are a meandering distraction, which isn't to say that "watching the thinker" (in a way, the diametric opposite of ATA), can't be an effective practice. If you actually attend, in the present moment, thoughts cease. A thought is ALWAYS a copy, of something. A copy always must occur, in time. So thinking always implies time. So if one properly attends, there is always -T. ATA-T is essentially sensing (there is attention to something visual, a sound, a smell, a taste, a body-sensation-feeling, in the sense of touch). If one just-senses, there is no thought. So you are correct. So watching the thinker, is exceptionally difficult, because, as said above, when you actually attend, thought stops. But partly my point is, ZD calls mindfulness, ATA+T. It's not. Anyone who says it is, is just incorrect, has been taught incorrectly. I posted the quote partly because Thich Nhat Hanh explains it correctly. You know the *mechanism* (you've explained it pretty well), the mechanism (conditioning) can operate with very little attention, in daydreaming, zero focused attention, this is the monkey-mind. It just spouts out thoughts. TNH uses the word aware, a close cousin of attend, in relation to mindfulness. And, if (any)one does not recognize the value of awareness-always, the trying, the wish to, well, that can't be taught, it has to be recognized. What we usually consider as watching the thinker, is usually just one thought watching another thought, which is mostly useless. And the natural state is not as deep as it gets. But what TNH is writing about, is the possibility of staying-in the natural state all the time (slightly ironic as it is not in-time). It's like a photon, itself, that doesn't experience time, as Einstein imagined as a teenager. Any description of the natural state that excludes thought is incorrect. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2024 6:07:12 GMT -5
If you actually attend, in the present moment, thoughts cease. A thought is ALWAYS a copy, of something. A copy always must occur, in time. So thinking always implies time. So if one properly attends, there is always -T. ATA-T is essentially sensing (there is attention to something visual, a sound, a smell, a taste, a body-sensation-feeling, in the sense of touch). If one just-senses, there is no thought. So you are correct. So watching the thinker, is exceptionally difficult, because, as said above, when you actually attend, thought stops. But partly my point is, ZD calls mindfulness, ATA+T. It's not. Anyone who says it is, is just incorrect, has been taught incorrectly. I posted the quote partly because Thich Nhat Hanh explains it correctly. You know the *mechanism* (you've explained it pretty well), the mechanism (conditioning) can operate with very little attention, in daydreaming, zero focused attention, this is the monkey-mind. It just spouts out thoughts. TNH uses the word aware, a close cousin of attend, in relation to mindfulness. And, if (any)one does not recognize the value of awareness-always, the trying, the wish to, well, that can't be taught, it has to be recognized. What we usually consider as watching the thinker, is usually just one thought watching another thought, which is mostly useless. And the natural state is not as deep as it gets. But what TNH is writing about, is the possibility of staying-in the natural state all the time (slightly ironic as it is not in-time). It's like a photon, itself, that doesn't experience time, as Einstein imagined as a teenager. Any description of the natural state that excludes thought is incorrect. All descriptions of the natural state include thought, that's what a description is. "The Tao that can be put into words, is not the Tao". chapter one, first line, you can take that to the bank. The natural state is previous to any conceptualization. Awareness is the very nature of the natural state. Awareness does not in any sense require conceptualization. The so-called SVP consists of nothing but copies, and copies of copies, and copies of copies of copies...etc. The so-called SVP is in a very real sense, a sophisticated AI. I don't recall Don Miguel Ruiz, and sons, ever being mentioned here, anywhere, but he has a very elaborate understanding and teaching of the so-called SVP, passed down, thousands of years old, which he calls a parasite. In a very real sense, it is. But the True Self is not the parasite. The false self is the parasite. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 3, 2024 8:22:10 GMT -5
If you actually attend, in the present moment, thoughts cease. A thought is ALWAYS a copy, of something. A copy always must occur, in time. So thinking always implies time. So if one properly attends, there is always -T. ATA-T is essentially sensing (there is attention to something visual, a sound, a smell, a taste, a body-sensation-feeling, in the sense of touch). If one just-senses, there is no thought. So you are correct. So watching the thinker, is exceptionally difficult, because, as said above, when you actually attend, thought stops. But partly my point is, ZD calls mindfulness, ATA+T. It's not. Anyone who says it is, is just incorrect, has been taught incorrectly. I posted the quote partly because Thich Nhat Hanh explains it correctly. You know the *mechanism* (you've explained it pretty well), the mechanism (conditioning) can operate with very little attention, in daydreaming, zero focused attention, this is the monkey-mind. It just spouts out thoughts. TNH uses the word aware, a close cousin of attend, in relation to mindfulness. And, if (any)one does not recognize the value of awareness-always, the trying, the wish to, well, that can't be taught, it has to be recognized. What we usually consider as watching the thinker, is usually just one thought watching another thought, which is mostly useless. And the natural state is not as deep as it gets. But what TNH is writing about, is the possibility of staying-in the natural state all the time (slightly ironic as it is not in-time). It's like a photon, itself, that doesn't experience time, as Einstein imagined as a teenager. Any description of the natural state that excludes thought is incorrect. So true. After the illusion of the "me" (the separate thinker, doer, etc) is penetrated, one realizes that whether there is silent awareness or awareness of thoughts there is no "me" doing any of it. This is why one famous ZM said (paraphrasing), "For years I controlled thoughts and kept attention away from thoughts until the mind became exceedlingly silent. Subsequently, I realized who the actual controller of attention is, and who the thinker of all thoughts is, and afterwards it no longer mattered whether there was thinking or silence." When one realizes what the ZM realized, true freedom is attained. The mind and body are then one with THIS. The sense of separation has ended. Tra la la la la la.  |
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Post by laughter on Jul 3, 2024 9:43:19 GMT -5
Any description of the natural state that excludes thought is incorrect. All descriptions of the natural state include thought, that's what a description is. "The Tao that can be put into words, is not the Tao". chapter one, first line, you can take that to the bank. The natural state is previous to any conceptualization. Awareness is the very nature of the natural state. Awareness does not in any sense require conceptualization. The so-called SVP consists of nothing but copies, and copies of copies, and copies of copies of copies...etc. The so-called SVP is in a very real sense, a sophisticated AI. I don't recall Don Miguel Ruiz, and sons, ever being mentioned here, anywhere, but he has a very elaborate understanding and teaching of the so-called SVP, passed down, thousands of years old, which he calls a parasite. In a very real sense, it is. But the True Self is not the parasite. The false self is the parasite. As E' might have said, okey dokey then.  |
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Post by laughter on Jul 3, 2024 9:43:38 GMT -5
Any description of the natural state that excludes thought is incorrect. So true. After the illusion of the "me" (the separate thinker, doer, etc) is penetrated, one realizes that whether there is silent awareness or awareness of thoughts there is no "me" doing any of it. This is why one famous ZM said (paraphrasing), "For years I controlled thoughts and kept attention away from thoughts until the mind became exceedlingly silent. Subsequently, I realized who the actual controller of attention is, and who the thinker of all thoughts is, and afterwards it no longer mattered whether there was thinking or silence." When one realizes what the ZM realized, true freedom is attained. The mind and body are then one with THIS. The sense of separation has ended. Tra la la la la la.  |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 3, 2024 15:18:57 GMT -5
Practices can be helpful in many ways, but becoming attached to a practice is another pitfall on the path. I remember that the first time I heard an Advaita teacher say, "You can't practice your way to being what you already are," I thought, "WTF, practice is absolutely essential." I had been involved in a Zen tradition of rigorous practice, so what that teacher said made no sense at all. Later, however, I discovered that true freedom lies beyond practice or the idea of practice. As long as there's any sense of a "me" having to make an effort of any kind, true freedom will remain out of reach. The illusion of being a SVP is the primary obstacle, and if that illusion is penetrated, amazement, understanding, freedom, and equanimity will be the result. May all beings discover the Infinite nature of what they already are and always have been. I presume you actually read the Thich Nhat Hanh quotes. In that case I must also presume you do not understand what he wrote. For years you have continually insisted mindfulness means +thinking. It doesn't. Buddha said: I am awake. From the Thich Nhat Hanh quote, I think you could also say Buddha said: I am aware (24/7). Then, it's obviously not practice, it's just a state of being. That's also the meaning of Dzogchen, it's called the practice that isn't practice. Dzogchen is being the natural state, the state previous to thought, previous to feeling, previous to action, also called the Primordial state. But, it is being in that state. I use the ATA+T designation to refer to the Vipassana style of mindfulness in which one watches both thoughts and what is experienced via direct sensory perception. The advice promoted by adherents of mindfulness tell newbies is to "step back" and watch things unfold without reacting to whatever appears. A common admonition is to act as if you're in a train station watching thought trains go by while refraining from jumping on board and getting carried away. I had no interest in this approach because I had spent 20 years thinking and had never found a single answer to an existential question. Why watch thoughts that are often "sticky?" My approach was to ignore thoughts completely, and as soon as I realized that this could be done during everyday activities, and was the same activity as sitting on a cushion watching the breathing process, I began to lose interest in the formal meditative practices of Zen. Thich Nhat Hanh was a Theravadan Buddhist, and their practices carry attentiveness to an extreme. Pay attention to every bite of food that you chew, to every body movement, to every thought, etc. That appeals to some people, but it didn't appeal to me. If one attains the Natural State as a result of penetrating the illusion of being a doer, none of that is necessary. One can relax and live life without any effort at all. All practices are left behind because they're no longer necessary. It's the difference between steering a boat down the river of life versus letting go of the tiller and having the boat carry you wherever it will. As the Buddha supposedly told his disciples, "Meditation is a means to an end just like using a boat to row across a lake. After getting to the far shore, it would be crazy to pick up the boat and carry it with you. The boat served its purpose, so it's no longer needed." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2024 18:21:54 GMT -5
I presume you actually read the Thich Nhat Hanh quotes. In that case I must also presume you do not understand what he wrote. For years you have continually insisted mindfulness means +thinking. It doesn't. Buddha said: I am awake. From the Thich Nhat Hanh quote, I think you could also say Buddha said: I am aware (24/7). Then, it's obviously not practice, it's just a state of being. That's also the meaning of Dzogchen, it's called the practice that isn't practice. Dzogchen is being the natural state, the state previous to thought, previous to feeling, previous to action, also called the Primordial state. But, it is being in that state. I use the ATA+T designation to refer to the Vipassana style of mindfulness in which one watches both thoughts and what is experienced via direct sensory perception. The advice promoted by adherents of mindfulness tell newbies is to "step back" and watch things unfold without reacting to whatever appears. A common admonition is to act as if you're in a train station watching thought trains go by while refraining from jumping on board and getting carried away. I had no interest in this approach because I had spent 20 years thinking and had never found a single answer to an existential question. Why watch thoughts that are often "sticky?" My approach was to ignore thoughts completely, and as soon as I realized that this could be done during everyday activities, and was the same activity as sitting on a cushion watching the breathing process, I began to lose interest in the formal meditative practices of Zen. Thich Nhat Hanh was a Theravadan Buddhist, and their practices carry attentiveness to an extreme. Pay attention to every bite of food that you chew, to every body movement, to every thought, etc. That appeals to some people, but it didn't appeal to me. If one attains the Natural State as a result of penetrating the illusion of being a doer, none of that is necessary. One can relax and live life without any effort at all. All practices are left behind because they're no longer necessary. It's the difference between steering a boat down the river of life versus letting go of the tiller and having the boat carry you wherever it will. As the Buddha supposedly told his disciples, "Meditation is a means to an end just like using a boat to row across a lake. After getting to the far shore, it would be crazy to pick up the boat and carry it with you. The boat served its purpose, so it's no longer needed." Then we are first cousins. But you have to know why. To save energy. |
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Post by lolly on Jul 4, 2024 6:42:42 GMT -5
Simple breath awareness is fine. You feel it, and 'this is reality as it is'. You realise you became distracted and remember, the actuality is here and now. It's better than being distracted all the time.
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