|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 11:34:36 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 11:34:36 GMT -5
ZD, and a lot of people here, speak in tautologies, which are relatively meaningless. He writes very simply, which can't explain the complications of life you demonstrate. ZD simply says, everything, means everything. So nothing can happen outside of everything. Of course he's absolutely correct. But that correctness is useless, worse than useless. Then they compound it by saying that there is no explanation, the events of life are beyond explanation, there is no why. He's just like Gopal, whose arguments cannot be defeated. He's just like my devout fundamentalist Christian sister, whose arguments can't be defeated, this is what the Bible says, period, end of story. There isn't just yes or no. The answer must include yes and no. The great Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna understood this. In Buddhism, this is called the Two Truths, subjectivity within Objectivity. Sure, the ten gazillion thingies are complex, but the existential truth, is simplicity incarnate.  You've never faced yourself in an excruciating double-bind? |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 26, 2024 11:50:31 GMT -5
Which is equivalent to saying that THIS murders THIS. THIS manifests as both the sinner and the saint. There is no "other." Everything that happens is an unfolding of THIS. No problem with that, it's obvious. But then you get into why, and you never want to go there. That's what the Individual thread is about. All "why" questions have the same exact answer, but it requires a realization for the mind to be informed about that issue. Gutei was a famous Zen Master. After he realized what's going on, he answered every question by holding up one index finger in silence. Very few people understood his response, but he became well known as an exponent of "one finger Zen." I used to respond to my daughter's questions in that manner, but for twenty years she didn't understand. About two years ago she had a realization and laughingly said, "Now I understand the one finger." Why is the sky blue? Why do we have two eyes? Why do humans fight with one another and commit various atrocities? The truth is so obvious once it's clearly seen, but people have to get out of their heads in order to see/grok it. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 26, 2024 11:51:29 GMT -5
Sure, the ten gazillion thingies are complex, but the existential truth, is simplicity incarnate. You've never faced yourself in an excruciating double-bind? Double-binds are only a problem for people who live in their heads. In the absence of thinking there are no double binds. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 26, 2024 12:01:44 GMT -5
Sure, the ten gazillion thingies are complex, but the existential truth, is simplicity incarnate. You've never faced yourself in an excruciating double-bind? I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 26, 2024 12:03:32 GMT -5
No problem with that, it's obvious. But then you get into why, and you never want to go there. That's what the Individual thread is about. All "why" questions have the same exact answer, but it requires a realization for the mind to be informed about that issue. Gutei was a famous Zen Master. After he realized what's going on, he answered every question by holding up one index finger in silence. Very few people understood his response, but he became well known as an exponent of "one finger Zen." I used to respond to my daughter's questions in that manner, but for twenty years she didn't understand. About two years ago she had a realization and laughingly said, "Now I understand the one finger." Why is the sky blue? Why do we have two eyes? Why do humans fight with one another and commit various atrocities? The truth is so obvious once it's clearly seen, but people have to get out of their heads in order to see/grok it.  |
|
|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 12:22:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 12:22:59 GMT -5
No problem with that, it's obvious. But then you get into why, and you never want to go there. That's what the Individual thread is about. All "why" questions have the same exact answer, but it requires a realization for the mind to be informed about that issue. Gutei was a famous Zen Master. After he realized what's going on, he answered every question by holding up one index finger in silence. Very few people understood his response, but he became well known as an exponent of "one finger Zen." I used to respond to my daughter's questions in that manner, but for twenty years she didn't understand. About two years ago she had a realization and laughingly said, "Now I understand the one finger." Why is the sky blue? Why do we have two eyes? Why do humans fight with one another and commit various atrocities? The truth is so obvious once it's clearly seen, but people have to get out of their heads in order to see/grok it. All why questions have the same exact answer? (I'm not asking for a reply). That's just what This is doing. In Tai Chi Chuan it is said that 4 ounces can deflect a thousand pounds. But you have to know the how of it. The how of it calls for an individuated response. This is where you go wrong, saying there is absolutely no individuated response. The individual is not necessarily a piece of clay at the hands of the Whole. That's the whole point. Conditioning plays a bigger role in a single person's life, than the Whole. Conditioning is the obstacle. Does conditioning operate outside the Whole? Of course not. |
|
|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 12:28:11 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 12:28:11 GMT -5
You've never faced yourself in an excruciating double-bind? I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'. Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. |
|
|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 12:29:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 26, 2024 12:29:20 GMT -5
You've never faced yourself in an excruciating double-bind? Double-binds are only a problem for people who live in their heads. In the absence of thinking there are no double binds. See reply above to laughter. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 12:38:16 GMT -5
I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'. Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. You mean the experience of being 'between a rock and a hard place'? |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 26, 2024 12:51:09 GMT -5
All "why" questions have the same exact answer, but it requires a realization for the mind to be informed about that issue. Gutei was a famous Zen Master. After he realized what's going on, he answered every question by holding up one index finger in silence. Very few people understood his response, but he became well known as an exponent of "one finger Zen." I used to respond to my daughter's questions in that manner, but for twenty years she didn't understand. About two years ago she had a realization and laughingly said, "Now I understand the one finger." Why is the sky blue? Why do we have two eyes? Why do humans fight with one another and commit various atrocities? The truth is so obvious once it's clearly seen, but people have to get out of their heads in order to see/grok it. All why questions have the same exact answer? (I'm not asking for a reply). That's just what This is doing. In Tai Chi Chuan it is said that 4 ounces can deflect a thousand pounds. But you have to know the how of it. The how of it calls for an individuated response. This is where you go wrong, saying there is absolutely no individuated response. The individual is not necessarily a piece of clay at the hands of the Whole. That's the whole point. Conditioning plays a bigger role in a single person's life, than the Whole. Conditioning is the obstacle. Does conditioning operate outside the Whole? Of course not. The Whole is what conditions the Whole when it is manifesting as a human being. There is no SVP doing anything; it only appears that way when one imagines that one is a separate volitional organism. There is no actual "me" who thinks thoughts or chooses anything. Thoughts spontaneously appear in awareness, and if one is attached to the idea that one is a SVP having thoughts and responding to thoughts, then that's just THIS in the form of a human who has been deluded by the concensus paradigm through which it's been conditioned. Using the wave metaphor, it's like a wave thinking it is separate from the ocean from which it arises. A wave appears and later it disappears. Where does it go when it disappears? What a wave IS is still here even after it disappears, but it is no longer in the form of a wave. What we ARE is the transformative process of THIS ceaselessly changing from one form into another form. |
|
|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 12:51:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by andrew on Sept 26, 2024 12:51:20 GMT -5
Correct, but until one sees the big picture one can't imagine what's being pointed to. Living in one's head is a little bit like living in a mind-created prison without any bars. The only time when most people get out of their heads is when something like a car wreck occurs. For at least a few moments people stop thinking and simply act without reflection. If that kind of a direct response to reality continued, people might discover THIS. Yes. We have developed a role for almost every circumstance in life, work, play, job, home, vacation, husband, wife, son, daughter, mother, father; a hundred different roles. But a wreck can be a situation for which we do not have a conditioned prefabricated role. Gurdjieff said this is a shock which puts us in essence. But we soon revert to a preprogrammed role. But I suspect some people like the taste of this, they are adrenaline junkies. But correct practice also puts one in essence. The practice self-remembering is also called the first conscious shock. But a wreck is an accidental shock, we can't afford to wait upon such an accident. Can you be sure that the spiritual path you are following isn't another preprogrammed one? Perhaps all spiritual paths are just more subtle expressions of preprogramming. To be clear, this isnt just a question I ask of you, I ask it of me too. And also to be clear, I'm not opposed to paradox. Even if spiritual paths are preprogrammed, that doesn't mean that I reject them. I consider growth to be natural, but in my experience, growth can sometimes happen in such way that seems...wrong. But sometimes, wrong is right. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 26, 2024 13:07:47 GMT -5
I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'. Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. If there is no thinking, the body will do whatever it does, but it will definitely act in accordance to whatever the conditions are. Thinking makes it appear that there's an obstacle where no obstacle actually exists. There are innumerable koans that deal with this issue, but once they are penetrated the issue becomes laughable. At a high school reunion many years ago I played a recording of a guy who says, "I own three cars, a Cadillac, a Chevrolet, and a VW beetle. I was going to drive my Cadillac to the reunion, but then I realized that my classmates would think I'm showing off. I then decided to drive my old VW beetle until I realized that by driving that car it was a kind of reverse oneupmanship (I own a Cadillac but I'm choosing to drive a much less expensive car). I then decided to drive the Chevrolet, but after I made that decision, I realized that I was still selecting a car based upon what my classmates might think of me. I was in a big double bind until I had a much deeper realization and then knew exactly which car I should drive without any doubt whatsoever....." At that point the recording cut off, so my high school classmates were left with the same koan that the guy was faced with--Which car should he have driven to the reunion? Haha! The common way of resolving this koan, or any other koan, it to state the question, think about it, and then shift attention away from thoughts using whatever meditative activity one finds most useful. Many simple koans can be resolved within two or three hours in this manner, but some of the harder koans may require weeks or even months of contemplation. When one shifts attention away from thoughts, it's like turning the issue over to a deeper level of mind, and we can say that the answer appears as a result of intuition--a level of mind that is deeper than the intellect. As noted before, if one has learned to stop thinking, the direct response of the body to its environment will become obvious, but if one is attached to thoughts, it's like being stuck at the surface level of the consensus paradigm. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deep or taste not the Pierian Spring." |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 26, 2024 13:22:44 GMT -5
I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'. Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. That's the flagpole koan, where The Iron Cow gives birth. Trust me, I'm no stranger dude. (and I don't just mean the koan, I mean the dilemma, as it happened). You can pretend that I don't understand if it makes you feel better. Sure. |
|
|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 14:33:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by steven on Sept 26, 2024 14:33:49 GMT -5
Correct, but until one sees the big picture one can't imagine what's being pointed to. Living in one's head is a little bit like living in a mind-created prison without any bars. The only time when most people get out of their heads is when something like a car wreck occurs. For at least a few moments people stop thinking and simply act without reflection. If that kind of a direct response to reality continued, people might discover THIS. I tried reading this and the various posts preceding this, but I just got lost wondering how any of it relates to being? No need to figure that out, unless you find yourself really moved to. It’s just wordplay. Nothing good or bad about it, just is. |
|
|
|
Practice
Sept 26, 2024 14:37:14 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by steven on Sept 26, 2024 14:37:14 GMT -5
I can remember how complicated everything seemed in situations like that, long ago, sure. And I engage with complexity all the time at work, to this day. Got nothin' to do with nothin'. Trust me, some time in your life you will be faced with a real existential dilemma, maybe even life and death, that's what we're here for, as inavalan understands. There will be no path forward, no way to proceed. But then, you have to decide, anyway. Or Just do, when doing is needed…and don’t do when doing is not needed. |
|
