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Post by zazeniac on Sept 16, 2024 8:34:28 GMT -5
I dunno. Think roscod was being facetious.
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roscod
Junior Member
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Post by roscod on Sept 16, 2024 10:17:38 GMT -5
Gosh. This is all very intellectual Yes it is, but some of us point beyond the intellect. Every important existential realization occurs beyond the intellect, so the intellect is the last to understand. Phil used to say that realizations "inform the mind/intellect" by revealing what is not true. A CC event reveals that reality is NOT what one imagined, and SR reveals that what one IS is NOT what one imagined. Other realizations reveal that awareness is primordial, that all there is is THIS, that time and space are imaginary cognitive grids, that there is only NOW, that the intellect is useless for discovering anything important about life, etc. etc. Zen people theorize that a sense impression, which they call "a nen," is primary. A second level nen reflects upon sense impressions, and a third level nen reflects upon reflections. IOW, a human thinks a thought, such as "It's a beautiful day," based upon a second-level nen, and knows that s/he had the thought as a consequence of a third level nen (I know that I know that I had a thought). This tertiary reflecting function of mind is what generates the idea of a "me" at the center of whatever is happening. This is why Zen people point to "one-eon nen" (what might be called "timeless being"). If one keeps shifting attention away from thoughts to the direct perception of "what is," realizations begin to occur, and the falseness of imaginary thoughts are penetrated. The bottom line is that everyday life lived without imaginary reflection is "The Way." That suggests to me the intellectualisation is an unnecessary process? |
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roscod
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Post by roscod on Sept 16, 2024 10:20:26 GMT -5
I dunno. Think roscod was being facetious. A little, to be sure, but it does make me wonder, when we are all interested in what is beyond the intellect, why do we wish to dive into such detailed analysis? Does this serve our process toward understanding the absolute, or is it an alluring side track? |
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roscod
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Post by roscod on Sept 16, 2024 10:24:33 GMT -5
Gosh. This is all very intellectual Yes, Ross. People here are very intellectual. They don't use AI. Are you suggesting that by using AI one no longer needs to intellectualise, presumably because you are given the answer? |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 16, 2024 13:11:52 GMT -5
Yes it is, but some of us point beyond the intellect. Every important existential realization occurs beyond the intellect, so the intellect is the last to understand. Phil used to say that realizations "inform the mind/intellect" by revealing what is not true. A CC event reveals that reality is NOT what one imagined, and SR reveals that what one IS is NOT what one imagined. Other realizations reveal that awareness is primordial, that all there is is THIS, that time and space are imaginary cognitive grids, that there is only NOW, that the intellect is useless for discovering anything important about life, etc. etc. Zen people theorize that a sense impression, which they call "a nen," is primary. A second level nen reflects upon sense impressions, and a third level nen reflects upon reflections. IOW, a human thinks a thought, such as "It's a beautiful day," based upon a second-level nen, and knows that s/he had the thought as a consequence of a third level nen (I know that I know that I had a thought). This tertiary reflecting function of mind is what generates the idea of a "me" at the center of whatever is happening. This is why Zen people point to "one-eon nen" (what might be called "timeless being"). If one keeps shifting attention away from thoughts to the direct perception of "what is," realizations begin to occur, and the falseness of imaginary thoughts are penetrated. The bottom line is that everyday life lived without imaginary reflection is "The Way." That suggests to me the intellectualisation is an unnecessary process? It's actually an unavoidable process. It occurs because human beings have a reflective/imaginative function of consciousness that enables them to make abstract distinctions ABOUT what they see, hear, feel, etc. This same function of intellectual abstraction allows them to also distinguish symbols that represent their abstract distinctions, and the abstract symbology is then used to communicate ABOUT human experiences and interactions with what appear to be separate things and events. This is all a normal part of growing up as a human being and becoming conditioned to think about reality in much the same way as other humans. The problem with this process is that most adults never realize how their interaction with the world changed on the way to adulthood, so they pass on the same conditioning to their children that was passed on to them. It's a case of the blind leading the blind. Many of the non-dual spiritual teachers advise adults to reverse the process that got them into the habit of thinking they are separate volitional entities. Reversing the process suggests that humans should refrain from intellectualizing (because 95% of intellectualizing is unnecessary due to the fact that all of the standard distinctions have been internalized in the subconscious) and return to interacting with the world in the same way as little children--directly through their sense perceptions. This is what meditators do when they shift attention away from thoughts to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc. As many posters have noted in the past, most adults interact with a surreal meta-reality composed of images, ideas, and symbols, and they spend much of their time thinking ABOUT reality in the same way as other adults. The path to existential understanding lies beyond the intellect, so those who are wise will eschew uselessly wallowing in symbology and return to a direct apprehension of "what is." |
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Post by melvin on Sept 16, 2024 14:46:56 GMT -5
Yes, Ross. People here are very intellectual. They don't use AI. Are you suggesting that by using AI one no longer needs to intellectualise, presumably because you are given the answer? AI is a confirmation of what you know but cant express it for lack of sufficient words to say. There are people here who can write extensively using their own vocabulary of words which are quite impressive. They can even write extensively their memoirs that pass up as intelligence since having a good memory is a requisite for intelligence, a requirement for a teaching job. That's the principal reason why this forum site is named ST ( Spiritual Teachers ).There's also a forum site, a replica of this site named SG ( Spiritual Gab ), which also demands, if you want to stay around, use your intelligence. If you observe this forum there are so many members here registered, but only a few who can write/ post intellectually, the rest are just audience, curious seekers who want to know what we have to say. Although there are also some seekers on ST who are serious in learning, arriving at the truth, interested in nonduality and self- realization but can't express themselves in writing for being shy, not being able match the wits of the regular players here. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2024 2:38:41 GMT -5
Yes it is, but some of us point beyond the intellect. Every important existential realization occurs beyond the intellect, so the intellect is the last to understand. Phil used to say that realizations "inform the mind/intellect" by revealing what is not true. A CC event reveals that reality is NOT what one imagined, and SR reveals that what one IS is NOT what one imagined. Other realizations reveal that awareness is primordial, that all there is is THIS, that time and space are imaginary cognitive grids, that there is only NOW, that the intellect is useless for discovering anything important about life, etc. etc. Zen people theorize that a sense impression, which they call "a nen," is primary. A second level nen reflects upon sense impressions, and a third level nen reflects upon reflections. IOW, a human thinks a thought, such as "It's a beautiful day," based upon a second-level nen, and knows that s/he had the thought as a consequence of a third level nen (I know that I know that I had a thought). This tertiary reflecting function of mind is what generates the idea of a "me" at the center of whatever is happening. This is why Zen people point to "one-eon nen" (what might be called "timeless being"). If one keeps shifting attention away from thoughts to the direct perception of "what is," realizations begin to occur, and the falseness of imaginary thoughts are penetrated. The bottom line is that everyday life lived without imaginary reflection is "The Way." That suggests to me the intellectualisation is an unnecessary process? There is no process that is necessary. But, even the recognition that a process is happening, in the description, and in the recognition, involves the process of intellect. Intellect allows us to express our notice of fractal patterns such as this. "Turtles, all the way down". The flip side is that you don't need intellect to know that there is a process .. that "something is happening". It's self-evident. Plain as the nose on your face. No need to think about it, or, as I'm doing here, to write about it. Some people engage intellect along the way to discovering and realizing what nonduality points to. Other's don't. Neither way is better or worse than the other, they're just different. Everyone who does realize the truth can tell you that it isn't found by way of intellect, and, most finders will offer alternative ways of seeking. For me, discovering this limit led to a period of what I describe as .. glorious confusion! 
For some of us who have made our living with our minds, there is a momentum to the process of applying the intellect to where our interests lie. This momentum can carry on, as a sort of habit, even after the limitations of thinking have been realized. But even the smartest of us cannot escape being on notice of the ineffable, once we've had the grace of being so informed.  |
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2024 2:45:35 GMT -5
I dunno. Think roscod was being facetious. A little, to be sure, but it does make me wonder, when we are all interested in what is beyond the intellect, why do we wish to dive into such detailed analysis? Does this serve our process toward understanding the absolute, or is it an alluring side track?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 17, 2024 8:15:58 GMT -5
I dunno. Think roscod was being facetious. A little, to be sure, but it does make me wonder, when we are all interested in what is beyond the intellect, why do we wish to dive into such detailed analysis? Does this serve our process toward understanding the absolute, or is it an alluring side track? I suspect that most people who are curious about the existential truth begin searching due to logical inconsistencies they see. Those inconsistencies suggest that there is something wrong with the conventional understanding of reality. Sometimes these inconsistencies are huge and literally blow the mind in one big blast, as in the case of Tolle, and sometimes they are small but cumulative. My first suspicion that something was "rotten in Denmark" occurred in a freshman logic course. The professor explained how decisions are logically made, and I realized that what he was saying was total nonsense. Later, in a physics class I began to wonder where the boundary was between the macroscopic world of everyday events and the subatomic world, and I also began to wonder "What is a subatomic particle, really?" Eventually these kinds of questions multiplied until it became obvious that everyone was overlooking something important and fundamental, but I didn't know what it was. Then, when I happened to read books about Zen Masters, I realized that they understood what I wanted to understand, but none of the books explained how they discovered whatever they had discovered. It was only after I started meditating and shifting attention away from thoughts that realizations began to occur, and one of the first big realizations was how thoughts had been obscuring the obvious. Each human's path to discovering the truth will be different, but what one eventually discovers is that reality CANNOT be understood by the intellect. What can be understood is that what we are is a unified field of being that has no separate parts, and that the idea of separation is a cognitive illusion. After one sees "the big picture," one can relax and live an ordinary life as a unique manifestation of a vast and unified Isness. |
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roscod
Junior Member
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Post by roscod on Sept 17, 2024 17:51:02 GMT -5
Thank you for the replies.
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Post by andrew on Sept 17, 2024 18:35:15 GMT -5
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