|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Oct 29, 2022 8:59:31 GMT -5
What are you saying 'realization' is when you say it is 'just a peek'? Plus, what is it that you're claiming doesn't end? I freely admit, no SR here, the sdp body-space. I don't have a reference for recognized-Wholeness, CC, SR. But I have a reference for a something nobody else here has (at least has mentioned, that I've read). So I'm just trying to put it all into context. If SR wants to show up here, this body-space, I'm ready. Until then, I have only what I have, and I've tried to share that as best as I can. Have you ever seen double? I've sure you have. You can do it easily, you can poke and pull around one eye, eventually you can see two images of the same thing. So the Whole is like one-image, the "personal" is another image. So our normal state is like having double vision (but we see only from the "personal", so it seems like one image). I take (theoretically) SR to be a recognition that there isn't really a personal view, that the Whole is the only real view, this is seeing One Image (metaphorically). That's what I'm calling a peek. So what I'm saying the evolution of consciousness (*~growth~*) is the ability to shift more-in-to the "viewpoint" of the Whole, all the time. The NDiverse seems to say that the seeing once is the whole journey. That's what I'm questioning. The all the time part is important, that's the difference. That's what Jesus mean by I and My Father are One. I and My father are One, all-the-time. The other question. What's writing here, now, for me sdp, is a kind of earthsuit, a means of connection with the manifest world. It's temporary. The only thing that is permanent is the Originating Intelligence, Spirit in the OP. The NDiverse says that's-what-we-are, the Whole manifesting. That's the Lila of God, God paying hide and seek, from himself. That's what I don't buy. It seems quite absurd. For me that's exactly equal to Gopal's universe, where God controls everything that happens, which also seems quite absurd to me (sorry Gopal). So the "Game" is, the Absolute *~loans~* us a part of Its life as a kind of experiment, to become More-than-it-is. Let's call that Seth2. So the 'job' of Seth2 is to contribute more-to What-the-Absolute-Is (I should stick with the word Spirit, which I introduced, sorry). Sorry, I get wordy, thinking words will help explain. So everything except Spirit is temporary and subject to entropy. So the 'job' of Seth2, is to be-more, to contribute, and so extends into Seth (the Oversoul), which extends into "Alice". Yes, "Alice" is imaginary, less-real than the Oversoul. Spirit is the Some, Alice is the nothing. So the journey of the ~personal self~ is to be the nothing it already is (for the double vision to become single vision). But it plays a part. Earth is a school. What Christians leave out (Gopal) is the part where Jesus said, the things I do, you can do too. That's the proof in the pudding. When you meet the person who can do all the things Jesus did, I'll say he or she has ended the journey. I don't doubt that SR is I and My Father are One. But I say journey's end is it being permanent. Thought is only a thing that appears. It only appears to divide Wholeness. The latter sentence has two meanings, the paradoxical Lila playing out as mind. You are not an earthsuit, nor even the thought of it. That seems absurd to the thought structure of what is believed to be sdp. The devotion you're expressing is to creating a thought structure (map) that explains it all, that repudiates absurdity yet allows for an SVP that is not a thought construct. TRUTH allows for the absurdity, because, like, it happens all the time, if ya know what I mean. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 9:39:02 GMT -5
sree, I most people here are playing a different "sport" than you are. "Rugby" and "soccer" don't mix well. That's all it is. I know you guys are playing, whatever it is that you are playing. You have turned spirituality into a mind game. It wasn’t a game that Jesus was playing. He put his life on the line and paid for it. Spiritual commitment was that dangerous back then because warning each other of danger had to be done physically, literally face- to- face, using the body. If the other guy didn’t like what you said, he would arrange to have your body killed. Life was pretty brutal back in those days and Jesus told his people that their spirituality was wrong, that they mustn’t take eye for an eye. They must stop doing that and break the cycle of violence by turning the other cheek instead.
I am doing the same thing here, stardust. Stop playing games. You guys have to get serious if you want to free humanity from suffering. As Krishnamurti said, humanity is not just out there separate from you. Humanity - both out there and in here - is you. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Oct 29, 2022 10:08:37 GMT -5
You said the self vanishes every night when the body sleeps. I guess I didn't know what your point was. The body is a phenomenon of consciousness also. Consciousness is the source of everything. I don't know what consciousness is. You can call it the Tao, if you like. After all, consciousness is indeed the source of the ten thousand things. Right? And it is mysterious. Self vanishes in sleep and does return next morning. I wish it doesn't because life is meaningless. Like I said, the heart keeps beating for no purpose. The leaves of the trees in my garden have turned yellow and practically all fallen from the trees. They will come back next spring. For what purpose? At least they don't suffer but we do. Life after life, we suffer.
Poor you. I think you should take it easy and keep your feet on the ground. Stay out of trouble. Live out your life with your family, your grandkids. When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point.
Thanks. This helps to better triangulate what you're on about. It also presents a little more sincere clarity on your take in the previous rendered 'word salad' (when juxtaposed to the rest of the utterance). As for this, how can KNOWING what you are be mysterious? Are you not yet comfortable with TRUTH, or is the attention still carried away by mind's protestations? Your conclusions presented here follow a familiar path that many were left stranded by when biting JK's finger. Existentially, are you stranded/suffering, or comfortable? NOTHING is unexplainable. EVERYTHING is a mystery. Enter the Niz quote on NOTHING and EVERYTHING for some nice pondering in the flow. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Oct 29, 2022 10:19:09 GMT -5
I've figured that out a while ago already, all without the Yjing.  But that's where I see the usefulness of such predictive techniques like (horary) astrology, tarot or the Yijing, to confirm what you already knew as a gut feeling, but didn't dare to accept intellectually. These techniques will help you accept it intellectually. If used that way, one would use these predictive techniques to one's advantage and I wouldn't discourage anyone doing that. If, however, someone has no reading at all on their inner guidance or doesn't even care and then uses these predictive techniques to come to a decision, that's like gambling and I would strongly advice against it, because it will not only create a dependency on these techniques for an otherwise naturally unfolding decision process, but it will also render these techniques ineffective if only employed out of curiosity or speculation. Because these techniques only work if there's a genuine interest and personal involvement in the matter inquired. I think that consulting the I Ching can be a valuable way of accessing inner-guidance. In my experience, the I Ching works well in most cases. Surely, that depends on what it is expected to deliver, how it is approached. I recall situations in which some time later I realized that it was I who misinterpreted the guidance. Why the I Ching works, what inner-guidance is, what's its role, ... I have a working model. I rather liked I-Ching studies back when. They did help me to break out of the constrictive conditioned thought patterns that I had fallen in the trap of. Due to my background and love of nature, the intuition required and archetypes it used seemed to help me turn inward and search for the 'trust' that was I was just beginning to notice emerging from within. A little challenging to explain, so I'll leave it there for now. I didn't go into it deeply (and the internet was not available then), so one of the things that always flummoxed me was the use of 'directions' (i.e., east-west-north-south). I feel compelled to look into it, but before I do, maybe you or Dusty can provide some insight on how/what they reference architypically. Curious. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 10:21:55 GMT -5
The body is a phenomenon of consciousness also. Consciousness is the source of everything. I don't know what consciousness is. You can call it the Tao, if you like. After all, consciousness is indeed the source of the ten thousand things. Right? And it is mysterious. Self vanishes in sleep and does return next morning. I wish it doesn't because life is meaningless. Like I said, the heart keeps beating for no purpose. The leaves of the trees in my garden have turned yellow and practically all fallen from the trees. They will come back next spring. For what purpose? At least they don't suffer but we do. Life after life, we suffer.
Poor you. I think you should take it easy and keep your feet on the ground. Stay out of trouble. Live out your life with your family, your grandkids. When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point.
If you don't even survive sleep what identity or individuality is going to survive to "return" to anything? If it's just universal consciousness, then we could as easily say that you and I are re-incarnations of each other. Sleep is time out for the self. Sleep is also a phenomenon of consciousness. You cannot watch your body sleep. Someone can testify that he can watch his body sleep and provide evidence to prove that. So what? What good is that ability for stopping human violence, the war in Ukraine or ending poverty in the world?
As a relevant matter to practical life, sleep is when the self is not. The self is not the person. The self masquerades as a person. It has to act as a person because this is the way life is being lived as a matter of universal consensus in the world. The self is necessary for purpose of physical navigation. The person is also necessary for the purpose of social identification. This is the way human cultural life has evolved.
Social identity is a tool. It’s like a name card you pin on your shirt when attending a convention or meeting. Why does the name card needs to survive? To return to where? When the meeting/convention is over, you thrown the name card in the trash bin. Similarly, the self vanishes as in sleep when the life of the body is over. It dies and gets thrown in the incinerator as biological waste.
Individuality is an idea. It returns to the list of acronyms enshrined in this forum. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 10:41:22 GMT -5
The body is a phenomenon of consciousness also. Consciousness is the source of everything. I don't know what consciousness is. You can call it the Tao, if you like. After all, consciousness is indeed the source of the ten thousand things. Right? And it is mysterious. Self vanishes in sleep and does return next morning. I wish it doesn't because life is meaningless. Like I said, the heart keeps beating for no purpose. The leaves of the trees in my garden have turned yellow and practically all fallen from the trees. They will come back next spring. For what purpose? At least they don't suffer but we do. Life after life, we suffer.
Poor you. I think you should take it easy and keep your feet on the ground. Stay out of trouble. Live out your life with your family, your grandkids. When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point.
Thanks. This helps to better triangulate what you're on about. It also presents a little more sincere clarity on your take in the previous rendered 'word salad' (when juxtaposed to the rest of the utterance). As for this, how can KNOWING what you are be mysterious? Are you not yet comfortable with TRUTH, or is the attention still carried away by mind's protestations? Your conclusions presented here follow a familiar path that many were left stranded by when biting JK's finger. Existentially, are you stranded/suffering, or comfortable? NOTHING is unexplainable. EVERYTHING is a mystery. Enter the Niz quote on NOTHING and EVERYTHING for some nice pondering in the flow. Does it? Are you on the same page as me, in the same dimension, of the same world? I live in a world where the body needs food and vulnerable to physical violence.
Existentially, I suffer a constant low level of anxiety because of an unstable world that poses a threat to my body.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 11:11:03 GMT -5
If you don't even survive sleep what identity or individuality is going to survive to "return" to anything? If it's just universal consciousness, then we could as easily say that you and I are re-incarnations of each other. Sleep is time out for the self. Sleep is also a phenomenon of consciousness. You cannot watch your body sleep. Someone can testify that he can watch his body sleep and provide evidence to prove that. So what? What good is that ability for stopping human violence, the war in Ukraine or ending poverty in the world?
As a relevant matter to practical life, sleep is when the self is not. The self is not the person. The self masquerades as a person. It has to act as a person because this is the way life is being lived as a matter of universal consensus in the world. The self is necessary for purpose of physical navigation. The person is also necessary for the purpose of social identification. This is the way human cultural life has evolved.
Social identity is a tool. It’s like a name card you pin on your shirt when attending a convention or meeting. Why does the name card needs to survive? To return to where? When the meeting/convention is over, you thrown the name card in the trash bin. Similarly, the self vanishes as in sleep when the life of the body is over. It dies and gets thrown in the incinerator as biological waste.
Individuality is an idea. It returns to the list of acronyms enshrined in this forum. Okay. You mentioned (perhaps as a joke) reincarnation. So I asked you what identity existed that could reincarnate. Here you seem to say: none; there is no reincarnation, no eternal individual soul to reincarnate. Okay. If that's the truth, the vast majority of humanity cannot accept it and breeds all kinds of religious and spiritual ideas to hide from it. I'm skeptical that you have accepted it and view it like throwing out a "name card". I think we have deeper attachment to our "self" than that. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 11:33:13 GMT -5
Sleep is time out for the self. Sleep is also a phenomenon of consciousness. You cannot watch your body sleep. Someone can testify that he can watch his body sleep and provide evidence to prove that. So what? What good is that ability for stopping human violence, the war in Ukraine or ending poverty in the world?
As a relevant matter to practical life, sleep is when the self is not. The self is not the person. The self masquerades as a person. It has to act as a person because this is the way life is being lived as a matter of universal consensus in the world. The self is necessary for purpose of physical navigation. The person is also necessary for the purpose of social identification. This is the way human cultural life has evolved.
Social identity is a tool. It’s like a name card you pin on your shirt when attending a convention or meeting. Why does the name card needs to survive? To return to where? When the meeting/convention is over, you thrown the name card in the trash bin. Similarly, the self vanishes as in sleep when the life of the body is over. It dies and gets thrown in the incinerator as biological waste.
Individuality is an idea. It returns to the list of acronyms enshrined in this forum. Okay. You mentioned (perhaps as a joke) reincarnation. So I asked you what identity existed that could reincarnate. Here you seem to say: none; there is no reincarnation, no eternal individual soul to reincarnate. Okay. If that's the truth, the vast majority of humanity cannot accept it and breeds all kinds of religious and spiritual ideas to hide from it. I'm skeptical that you have accepted it and view it like throwing out a "name card". I think we have deeper attachment to our "self" than that. Ok, this is a serious statement. Can you bring up that post; otherwise, give me the context in which I used that dirty word (reincarnation). I am not here to shoot the bull and take what I say here seriously. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 12:20:41 GMT -5
Okay. You mentioned (perhaps as a joke) reincarnation. So I asked you what identity existed that could reincarnate. Here you seem to say: none; there is no reincarnation, no eternal individual soul to reincarnate. Okay. If that's the truth, the vast majority of humanity cannot accept it and breeds all kinds of religious and spiritual ideas to hide from it. I'm skeptical that you have accepted it and view it like throwing out a "name card". I think we have deeper attachment to our "self" than that. Ok, this is a serious statement. Can you bring up that post; otherwise, give me the context in which I used that dirty word (reincarnation). I am not here to shoot the bull and take what I say here seriously. Just scroll up on this page (8). I quoted you and even underlined the quote when I responded. You didn't use the exact word "reincarnate", but you clearly mentioned the concept. Here's a section of your statement, again, for your convenience. The underline was mine: "... When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point." |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Oct 29, 2022 12:21:47 GMT -5
Thanks. This helps to better triangulate what you're on about. It also presents a little more sincere clarity on your take in the previous rendered 'word salad' (when juxtaposed to the rest of the utterance). As for this, how can KNOWING what you are be mysterious? Are you not yet comfortable with TRUTH, or is the attention still carried away by mind's protestations? Your conclusions presented here follow a familiar path that many were left stranded by when biting JK's finger. Existentially, are you stranded/suffering, or comfortable? NOTHING is unexplainable. EVERYTHING is a mystery. Enter the Niz quote on NOTHING and EVERYTHING for some nice pondering in the flow. Does it? Are you on the same page as me, in the same dimension, of the same world? I live in a world where the body needs food and vulnerable to physical violence.
Existentially, I suffer a constant low level of anxiety because of an unstable world that poses a threat to my body.
Yes, it does. We're having a discussion on the same page in a mind-based conceptions of some dimension. I'm pointing to the non-dual, but you are stating that you are not Source and, therefore, duality is fundamental. The chasm between the mind's conception of wholeness and Wholeness is what can actually be healed. Meanwhile, the divisiveness of the mind, given the reins, often competes with itself, becomes more splintered, and causes all forms of perceivable delusions and 'problems'. Whereas, TRUTH puts mind in its place, and clarity emerges. The world's 'problems' are seen as qualitatively indicative of varying degrees of unconsciousness. There's nothing wrong with trying to make the world a better place, nor of feeding the body and minimizing physical violence. Do you think that minimizing/ending one's own suffering and/or healing the chasm would lead to less hunger, violence, and other 'worldly problems'? Again, don't let the hope of a better tomorrow leave you in chains today. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 29, 2022 12:45:24 GMT -5
sree, I most people here are playing a different "sport" than you are. "Rugby" and "soccer" don't mix well. That's all it is. I know you guys are playing, whatever it is that you are playing. You have turned spirituality into a mind game. It wasn’t a game that Jesus was playing. He put his life on the line and paid for it. Spiritual commitment was that dangerous back then because warning each other of danger had to be done physically, literally face- to- face, using the body. If the other guy didn’t like what you said, he would arrange to have your body killed. Life was pretty brutal back in those days and Jesus told his people that their spirituality was wrong, that they mustn’t take eye for an eye. They must stop doing that and break the cycle of violence by turning the other cheek instead.
I am doing the same thing here, stardust. Stop playing games. You guys have to get serious if you want to free humanity from suffering. As Krishnamurti said, humanity is not just out there separate from you. Humanity - both out there and in here - is you. game = metaphor. that said, it will take thousands and thousands of years, if ever, for humanity to change. we could feed the whole planet within a year, and from that, forever. greed and power get in the way. those have to cease to be perpetuated, one generation at a time. snot going to happen any time soon. but bravo for you for trying. but best not try to stand against a tsunami (greed and power). |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 29, 2022 12:51:39 GMT -5
I've figured that out a while ago already, all without the Yjing. But that's where I see the usefulness of such predictive techniques like (horary) astrology, tarot or the Yijing, to confirm what you already knew as a gut feeling, but didn't dare to accept intellectually. These techniques will help you accept it intellectually. If used that way, one would use these predictive techniques to one's advantage and I wouldn't discourage anyone doing that. If, however, someone has no reading at all on their inner guidance or doesn't even care and then uses these predictive techniques to come to a decision, that's like gambling and I would strongly advice against it, because it will not only create a dependency on these techniques for an otherwise naturally unfolding decision process, but it will also render these techniques ineffective if only employed out of curiosity or speculation. Because these techniques only work if there's a genuine interest and personal involvement in the matter inquired. I think that consulting the I Ching can be a valuable way of accessing inner-guidance. In my experience, the I Ching works well in most cases. Surely, that depends on what it is expected to deliver, how it is approached. I recall situations in which some time later I realized that it was I who misinterpreted the guidance. Why the I Ching works, what inner-guidance is, what's its role, ... I have a working model.if you would be willing, i'd like to hear. . |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 29, 2022 12:53:43 GMT -5
Does it? Are you on the same page as me, in the same dimension, of the same world? I live in a world where the body needs food and vulnerable to physical violence.
Existentially, I suffer a constant low level of anxiety because of an unstable world that poses a threat to my body.
Yes, it does. We're having a discussion on the same page in a mind-based conceptions of some dimension. I'm pointing to the non-dual, but you are stating that you are not Source and, therefore, duality is fundamental. The chasm between the mind's conception of wholeness and Wholeness is what can actually be healed. Meanwhile, the divisiveness of the mind, given the reins, often competes with itself, becomes more splintered, and causes all forms of perceivable delusions and 'problems'. Whereas, TRUTH puts mind in its place, and clarity emerges. The world's 'problems' are seen as qualitatively indicative of varying degrees of unconsciousness. There's nothing wrong with trying to make the world a better place, nor of feeding the body and minimizing physical violence. Do you think that minimizing/ending one's own suffering and/or healing the chasm would lead to less hunger, violence, and other 'worldly problems'? Again, don't let the hope of a better tomorrow leave you in chains today. bingo x 1000 |
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Oct 29, 2022 12:53:51 GMT -5
I've figured that out a while ago already, all without the Yjing. But that's where I see the usefulness of such predictive techniques like (horary) astrology, tarot or the Yijing, to confirm what you already knew as a gut feeling, but didn't dare to accept intellectually. These techniques will help you accept it intellectually. If used that way, one would use these predictive techniques to one's advantage and I wouldn't discourage anyone doing that. If, however, someone has no reading at all on their inner guidance or doesn't even care and then uses these predictive techniques to come to a decision, that's like gambling and I would strongly advice against it, because it will not only create a dependency on these techniques for an otherwise naturally unfolding decision process, but it will also render these techniques ineffective if only employed out of curiosity or speculation. Because these techniques only work if there's a genuine interest and personal involvement in the matter inquired. I think that consulting the I Ching can be a valuable way of accessing inner-guidance. In my experience, the I Ching works well in most cases. Surely, that depends on what it is expected to deliver, how it is approached. I recall situations in which some time later I realized that it was I who misinterpreted the guidance. Why the I Ching works, what inner-guidance is, what's its role, ... I have a working model. Law of Attraction? |
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Oct 29, 2022 12:55:39 GMT -5
I understand that you already know a lot about the I Ching, and just want to get a second opinion. The way I understand this to work, you should get better results if you concentrate yourself on your problem, and do the draw. The inquiry (per R L Wing's instructions) should be more on the lines of "what would be the result of doing that", than "should I do it". So an inquiry that doesn't ask for a straight yes / no answer gives better guidance. The interpretation of the answer should be more accurate when you do it yourself. On the other hand, if you aren't used to the I Ching, it is possible that a person more familiar with it to get better results. In my experience, the changing lines give the direct guidance about how to act. In this case, 4 lines are changing, and the 5th is marked to be the most significant to consider. I hope that this exercise helps you. From all the I Ching books and sites, R L Wing's seems the best, and J P Guyonnaud's a close second. The yarrow have been drawn.... The present is embodied in Hexagram 9 - Hsiao Ch'u (The Taming Power of the Small): There will be progress and success. We see dense clouds, but no rain coming from our borders in the west. The first (bottommost) line, undivided, shows its subject returning and pursuing his own course. What mistake should he fall into? There will be good fortune. The second line, undivided, shows it subject, by the attraction of the former line, returning to the proper course. There will be good fortune. The third line, undivided, suggests the idea of a carriage, the strap beneath which has been removed, or of a husband and wife looking on each other with averted eyes. The fifth line, undivided, shows its subject possessed of sincerity, and drawing others to unite with him. Rich in resources, he employs his neighbours in the same cause with himself. The situation is changing rapidly, and Yin (the passive feminine force) is gaining ground. The future is embodied in Hexagram 23 - Po (Splitting Apart): It will not be advantageous to move in any direction whatever. The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Sun (Wind), which is transforming into Ken (Mountain). As part of this process, penetration and following are giving way to stillness and obstruction. The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram Chi'en (Heaven), which is transforming into K'un (Earth). As part of this process, strength and creativity are giving way to docility and receptivity. View Attachment View Attachment View AttachmentThanks, this works very well. "The way I understand this to work, you should get better results if you concentrate yourself on your problem, and do the draw." That's the most important part! |
|
