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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 25, 2022 7:09:51 GMT -5
I could have continued this on the current dialogue-thread-Papagenos, but thought it needed a fresh start. I think I've finally got Gopal's POV nailed down, he thinks God controls everything, every action of every person, every thought. Now, I've tried my best to break through that, seems like it's not going to happen. Now, the ND view (in a manner of speaking) is that when the Biggest picture is seen, there isn't a person doing anything, there is just the movement of Oneness. These two views seem miles apart, but are they really? If Gopal is right, there isn't a person doing anything. That seems quite clear but I'm not sure he understands that.
So, in both views, there is no person doing anything. In both views personal history is irrelevant. In the NDiverse, there isn't a person doing anything, that's said quite clearly. In Gopal's view, there isn't a person because this unlimited intelligence (which Gopal calls God) is controlling everything. I really have no problem with either view. But for me, these are starting points, not ending points.
I'm going to introduce a different word, an old word. Let's call the Originating Whole, Spirit. It would be just another word for Consciousness, the origin of everything (or for Gopal, God). There is in some sense a person, we are all differentiated from each other in some sense, but in the NDiverse, no SVP (no separate volitional person, for sree). For Gopal also, there is no SVP. (Is that clear Gopal?) Now, how is a person formed in the seen world? A mother and a father each contribute 26 chromosomes, let's call the new person-to-be Alice. Before the two come together, there isn't an Alice, Alice not-now is. That's quite clear. Now, a little side trip, for a few here. An Over-soul connected to future-Alice, existed prior to Alice, as Oversoul-Alice. But who-Alice-comes-to-be, the person, knows nothing about Oversoul-(of)-Alice.
So, now we have Spirit, Oversoul-Alice, Alice. We have Spirit as the Undifferentiated Unmanifest ND-Source. The NDiverse says there is no separate Alice, because everything is Spirit. Gopal says there is no Alice, because Spirit (in a sense understood differently from NDiverse, God) controls everything.
sdp says this is everything going off the rails. I have zero problem with Alice having a realization of Spirit, a realization of NDiverse-Spirit. But then Alice comes back to live 9-5 5 days and 24/7. Now, Alice has stamped on her this realization of NDiverse-Spirit, it permeates everything, it has changed her whole orientation to life the Universe and Everything (I wanted to get that in my thread title, FYI). But I'm going to suggest that this view aborts the possibility of what's actually going on. So what's going on? Will try to be very brief. This view throws Oversoul-Alice out the window as unnecessary and irrelevant and even non-existing. Oversoul-Alice is a kind of empty category, as far as Alice is concerned. But Oversoul-Alice is actually the link between Alice and Spirit (again, the Unmanifest, NDiverse, Source, God-for Gopal). In Yogacara (Buddhism) Oversoul-Alice is called the Storehouse. ~Where~ do the vasanas and the samskaras *exist* between incarnations? In the Oversoul-Alice-Storehouse. What is the evolution of consciousness? It's the evolution of Oversoul-Alice. Spirit has seeded Itself into the manifest world. This seed of potential is Oversoul-Alice.
Just a little further. Alice does not reincarnate. When Alice dies (when the body dies), Alice has in a certain sense done her job for one life. But everything Alice has learned and experienced goes-into "her" Oversoul-(Storehouse). But the vasanas and samkaras which Alice has participated-in, do not disintegrate upon the death of Alice (Alice is the ordinary self-ego-small s self-conditioned self-cultural self, if that isn't clear, the not-SVP). They go-into the Oversoul. Now, at a certain point the Oversoul considers it needs more data and experience to fulfill the mission set by Spirit (the Originating-Whole-Source-Consciousness), to expand into the Infinite. So the Oversoul picks out parents, participates in conception, picks out certain vasanas and samskaras that need to be worked out, and so extends a part of itself into the new baby. And everything is repeated, rinse and repeat. Now, of course there is more, but this has gotten long. But the point is the ND view essentially aborts the whole process. Eventually, "Alice" is to perfectly represent "her" Oversoul and be completely united to her Oversoul, and completely express her Oversoul, Alice disappears into her Oversoul. This accomplished, all vasanas and samaskaras extinguished, this is the fulfillment of Oversoul. Now, what is the purpose of Oversoul? To be perfectly united and at One with Spirit, and to have reached its full potential. Now, I will present that this is what Buddha accomplished, what Jesus accomplished, what Lao Tzu accomplished. So realization is just a peek, it isn't the end.
So what's the purpose of Alice? Alice is a limited POV, Alice doesn't really do anything, both Gopal and NDiverse are correct. But if Alice can become ~aligned~, with "her" Oversoul, the sky is the limit. So Alice has to break-free from Alice. This is a kind of death of Alice, but in-this Alice comes to manifest "her" Oversoul. So the purpose of Alice, is to cease to-be Alice, in order to manifest Oversoul. So the Oversoul is really a field of potential, it both Is, but in some sense Is-Not. In a very similar manner, as Alice didn't exist until two parents came together, and started her, the Oversoul does-not-now-exist, except as a field of potential. Yes, Spirit exists. But Spirit forms this (individuated) field of potential, the Oversoul. So, the Oversoul doesn't incarnate, but ~extends its life~ into the incarnation, for the purpose of experiencing life and collecting data to *~grow~* its field of potential. OK, I was supposed to end a few sentences ago. ...
One more thing for sree. This kind-of-death for Alice (not the death of the body), is not psychological suicide. Ask the butterfly, afterwards, would it rather be a caterpillar or a butterfly? So, sree, you are committing abortion, just like Gopal, and just like NDiverse. To maybe give some more context. Seth would-be/was the Oversoul of Jane. But then too, there was a Seth2, so it's complicated.
OK, one more thing, attention and awareness come-from the Oversoul.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Oct 25, 2022 8:21:56 GMT -5
I could have continued this on the current dialogue-thread-Papagenos, but thought it needed a fresh start. I think I've finally got Gopal's POV nailed down, he thinks God controls everything, every action of every person, every thought. Now, I've tried my best to break through that, seems like it's not going to happen. Now, the ND view (in a manner of speaking) is that when the Biggest picture is seen, there isn't a person doing anything, there is just the movement of Oneness. These two views seem miles apart, but are they really? If Gopal is right, there isn't a person doing anything. That seems quite clear but I'm not sure he understands that. So, in both views, there is no person doing anything. In both views personal history is irrelevant. In the NDiverse, there isn't a person doing anything, that's said quite clearly. In Gopal's view, there isn't a person because this unlimited intelligence (which Gopal calls God) is controlling everything. I really have no problem with either view. But for me, these are starting points, not ending points. I'm going to introduce a different word, an old word. Let's call the Originating Whole, Spirit. It would be just another word for Consciousness, the origin of everything (or for Gopal, God). There is in some sense a person, we are all differentiated from each other in some sense, but in the NDiverse, no SVP (no separate volitional person, for sree). For Gopal also, there is no SVP. (Is that clear Gopal?) Now, how is a person formed in the seen world? A mother and a father each contribute 26 chromosomes, let's call the new person-to-be Alice. Before the two come together, there isn't an Alice, Alice not-now is. That's quite clear. Now, a little side trip, for a few here. An Over-soul connected to future-Alice, existed prior to Alice, as Oversoul-Alice. But who-Alice-comes-to-be, the person, knows nothing about Oversoul-(of)-Alice. So, now we have Spirit, Oversoul-Alice, Alice. We have Spirit as the Undifferentiated Unmanifest ND-Source. The NDiverse says there is no separate Alice, because everything is Spirit. Gopal says there is no Alice, because Spirit (in a sense understood differently from NDiverse, God) controls everything. sdp says this is everything going off the rails. I have zero problem with Alice having a realization of Spirit, a realization of NDiverse-Spirit. But then Alice comes back to live 9-5 5 days and 24/7. Now, Alice has stamped on her this realization of NDiverse-Spirit, it permeates everything, it has changed her whole orientation to life the Universe and Everything (I wanted to get that in my thread title, FYI). But I'm going to suggest that this view aborts the possibility of what's actually going on. So what's going on? Will try to be very brief. This view throws Oversoul-Alice out the window as unnecessary and irrelevant and even non-existing. Oversoul-Alice is a kind of empty category, as far as Alice is concerned. But Oversoul-Alice is actually the link between Alice and Spirit (again, the Unmanifest, NDiverse, Source, God-for Gopal). In Yogacara (Buddhism) Oversoul-Alice is called the Storehouse. ~Where~ do the vasanas and the samskaras *exist* between incarnations? In the Oversoul-Alice-Storehouse. What is the evolution of consciousness? It's the evolution of Oversoul-Alice. Spirit has seeded Itself into the manifest world. This seed of potential is Oversoul-Alice. Just a little further. Alice does not reincarnate. When Alice dies (when the body dies), Alice has in a certain sense done her job for one life. But everything Alice has learned and experienced goes-into "her" Oversoul-(Storehouse). But the vasanas and samkaras which Alice has participated-in, do not disintegrate upon the death of Alice (Alice is the ordinary self-ego-small s self-conditioned self-cultural self, if that isn't clear, the not-SVP). They go-into the Oversoul. Now, at a certain point the Oversoul considers it needs more data and experience to fulfill the mission set by Spirit (the Originating-Whole-Source-Consciousness), to expand into the Infinite. So the Oversoul picks out parents, participates in conception, picks out certain vasanas and samskaras that need to be worked out, and so extends a part of itself into the new baby. And everything is repeated, rinse and repeat. Now, of course there is more, but this has gotten long. But the point is the ND view essentially aborts the whole process. Eventually, "Alice" is to perfectly represent "her" Oversoul and be completely united to her Oversoul, and completely express her Oversoul, Alice disappears into her Oversoul. This accomplished, all vasanas and samaskaras extinguished, this is the fulfillment of Oversoul. Now, what is the purpose of Oversoul? To be perfectly united and at One with Spirit, and to have reached its full potential. Now, I will present that this is what Buddha accomplished, what Jesus accomplished, what Lao Tzu accomplished. So realization is just a peek, it isn't the end.
So what's the purpose of Alice? Alice is a limited POV, Alice doesn't really do anything, both Gopal and NDiverse are correct. But if Alice can become ~aligned~, with "her" Oversoul, the sky is the limit. So Alice has to break-free from Alice. This is a kind of death of Alice, but in-this Alice comes to manifest "her" Oversoul. So the purpose of Alice, is to cease to-be Alice, in order to manifest Oversoul. So the Oversoul is really a field of potential, it both Is, but in some sense Is-Not. In a very similar manner, as Alice didn't exist until two parents came together, and started her, the Oversoul does-not-now-exist, except as a field of potential. Yes, Spirit exists. But Spirit forms this (individuated) field of potential, the Oversoul. So, the Oversoul doesn't incarnate, but ~extends its life~ into the incarnation, for the purpose of experiencing life and collecting data to *~grow~* its field of potential. OK, I was supposed to end a few sentences ago. ... One more thing for sree. This kind-of-death for Alice (not the death of the body), is not psychological suicide. Ask the butterfly, afterwards, would it rather be a caterpillar or a butterfly? So, sree, you are committing abortion, just like Gopal, and just like NDiverse. To maybe give some more context. Seth would-be/was the Oversoul of Jane. But then too, there was a Seth2, so it's complicated. OK, one more thing, attention and awareness come-from the Oversoul. What are you saying 'realization' is when you say it is 'just a peek'? Plus, what is it that you're claiming doesn't end? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 25, 2022 9:55:41 GMT -5
I could have continued this on the current dialogue-thread-Papagenos, but thought it needed a fresh start. I think I've finally got Gopal's POV nailed down, he thinks God controls everything, every action of every person, every thought. Now, I've tried my best to break through that, seems like it's not going to happen. Now, the ND view (in a manner of speaking) is that when the Biggest picture is seen, there isn't a person doing anything, there is just the movement of Oneness. These two views seem miles apart, but are they really? If Gopal is right, there isn't a person doing anything. That seems quite clear but I'm not sure he understands that. So, in both views, there is no person doing anything. In both views personal history is irrelevant. In the NDiverse, there isn't a person doing anything, that's said quite clearly. In Gopal's view, there isn't a person because this unlimited intelligence (which Gopal calls God) is controlling everything. I really have no problem with either view. But for me, these are starting points, not ending points. I'm going to introduce a different word, an old word. Let's call the Originating Whole, Spirit. It would be just another word for Consciousness, the origin of everything (or for Gopal, God). There is in some sense a person, we are all differentiated from each other in some sense, but in the NDiverse, no SVP (no separate volitional person, for sree). For Gopal also, there is no SVP. (Is that clear Gopal?) Now, how is a person formed in the seen world? A mother and a father each contribute 26 chromosomes, let's call the new person-to-be Alice. Before the two come together, there isn't an Alice, Alice not-now is. That's quite clear. Now, a little side trip, for a few here. An Over-soul connected to future-Alice, existed prior to Alice, as Oversoul-Alice. But who-Alice-comes-to-be, the person, knows nothing about Oversoul-(of)-Alice. So, now we have Spirit, Oversoul-Alice, Alice. We have Spirit as the Undifferentiated Unmanifest ND-Source. The NDiverse says there is no separate Alice, because everything is Spirit. Gopal says there is no Alice, because Spirit (in a sense understood differently from NDiverse, God) controls everything. sdp says this is everything going off the rails. I have zero problem with Alice having a realization of Spirit, a realization of NDiverse-Spirit. But then Alice comes back to live 9-5 5 days and 24/7. Now, Alice has stamped on her this realization of NDiverse-Spirit, it permeates everything, it has changed her whole orientation to life the Universe and Everything (I wanted to get that in my thread title, FYI). But I'm going to suggest that this view aborts the possibility of what's actually going on. So what's going on? Will try to be very brief. This view throws Oversoul-Alice out the window as unnecessary and irrelevant and even non-existing. Oversoul-Alice is a kind of empty category, as far as Alice is concerned. But Oversoul-Alice is actually the link between Alice and Spirit (again, the Unmanifest, NDiverse, Source, God-for Gopal). In Yogacara (Buddhism) Oversoul-Alice is called the Storehouse. ~Where~ do the vasanas and the samskaras *exist* between incarnations? In the Oversoul-Alice-Storehouse. What is the evolution of consciousness? It's the evolution of Oversoul-Alice. Spirit has seeded Itself into the manifest world. This seed of potential is Oversoul-Alice. Just a little further. Alice does not reincarnate. When Alice dies (when the body dies), Alice has in a certain sense done her job for one life. But everything Alice has learned and experienced goes-into "her" Oversoul-(Storehouse). But the vasanas and samkaras which Alice has participated-in, do not disintegrate upon the death of Alice (Alice is the ordinary self-ego-small s self-conditioned self-cultural self, if that isn't clear, the not-SVP). They go-into the Oversoul. Now, at a certain point the Oversoul considers it needs more data and experience to fulfill the mission set by Spirit (the Originating-Whole-Source-Consciousness), to expand into the Infinite. So the Oversoul picks out parents, participates in conception, picks out certain vasanas and samskaras that need to be worked out, and so extends a part of itself into the new baby. And everything is repeated, rinse and repeat. Now, of course there is more, but this has gotten long. But the point is the ND view essentially aborts the whole process. Eventually, "Alice" is to perfectly represent "her" Oversoul and be completely united to her Oversoul, and completely express her Oversoul, Alice disappears into her Oversoul. This accomplished, all vasanas and samaskaras extinguished, this is the fulfillment of Oversoul. Now, what is the purpose of Oversoul? To be perfectly united and at One with Spirit, and to have reached its full potential. Now, I will present that this is what Buddha accomplished, what Jesus accomplished, what Lao Tzu accomplished. So realization is just a peek, it isn't the end.
So what's the purpose of Alice? Alice is a limited POV, Alice doesn't really do anything, both Gopal and NDiverse are correct. But if Alice can become ~aligned~, with "her" Oversoul, the sky is the limit. So Alice has to break-free from Alice. This is a kind of death of Alice, but in-this Alice comes to manifest "her" Oversoul. So the purpose of Alice, is to cease to-be Alice, in order to manifest Oversoul. So the Oversoul is really a field of potential, it both Is, but in some sense Is-Not. In a very similar manner, as Alice didn't exist until two parents came together, and started her, the Oversoul does-not-now-exist, except as a field of potential. Yes, Spirit exists. But Spirit forms this (individuated) field of potential, the Oversoul. So, the Oversoul doesn't incarnate, but ~extends its life~ into the incarnation, for the purpose of experiencing life and collecting data to *~grow~* its field of potential. OK, I was supposed to end a few sentences ago. ... One more thing for sree. This kind-of-death for Alice (not the death of the body), is not psychological suicide. Ask the butterfly, afterwards, would it rather be a caterpillar or a butterfly? So, sree, you are committing abortion, just like Gopal, and just like NDiverse. To maybe give some more context. Seth would-be/was the Oversoul of Jane. But then too, there was a Seth2, so it's complicated. OK, one more thing, attention and awareness come-from the Oversoul. What are you saying 'realization' is when you say it is 'just a peek'? Plus, what is it that you're claiming doesn't end? I freely admit, no SR here, the sdp body-space. I don't have a reference for recognized-Wholeness, CC, SR. But I have a reference for a something nobody else here has (at least has mentioned, that I've read). So I'm just trying to put it all into context. If SR wants to show up here, this body-space, I'm ready. Until then, I have only what I have, and I've tried to share that as best as I can. Have you ever seen double? I've sure you have. You can do it easily, you can poke and pull around one eye, eventually you can see two images of the same thing. So the Whole is like one-image, the "personal" is another image. So our normal state is like having double vision (but we see only from the "personal", so it seems like one image). I take (theoretically) SR to be a recognition that there isn't really a personal view, that the Whole is the only real view, this is seeing One Image (metaphorically). That's what I'm calling a peek. So what I'm saying the evolution of consciousness (*~growth~*) is the ability to shift more-in-to the "viewpoint" of the Whole, all the time. The NDiverse seems to say that the seeing once is the whole journey. That's what I'm questioning. The all the time part is important, that's the difference. That's what Jesus mean by I and My Father are One. I and My father are One, all-the-time. The other question. What's writing here, now, for me sdp, is a kind of earthsuit, a means of connection with the manifest world. It's temporary. The only thing that is permanent is the Originating Intelligence, Spirit in the OP. The NDiverse says that's-what-we-are, the Whole manifesting. That's the Lila of God, God paying hide and seek, from himself. That's what I don't buy. It seems quite absurd. For me that's exactly equal to Gopal's universe, where God controls everything that happens, which also seems quite absurd to me (sorry Gopal). So the "Game" is, the Absolute *~loans~* us a part of Its life as a kind of experiment, to become More-than-it-is. Let's call that Seth2. So the 'job' of Seth2 is to contribute more-to What-the-Absolute-Is (I should stick with the word Spirit, which I introduced, sorry). Sorry, I get wordy, thinking words will help explain. So everything except Spirit is temporary and subject to entropy. So the 'job' of Seth2, is to be-more, to contribute, and so extends into Seth (the Oversoul), which extends into "Alice". Yes, "Alice" is imaginary, less-real than the Oversoul. Spirit is the Some, Alice is the nothing. So the journey of the ~personal self~ is to be the nothing it already is (for the double vision to become single vision). But it plays a part. Earth is a school. What Christians leave out (Gopal) is the part where Jesus said, the things I do, you can do too. That's the proof in the pudding. When you meet the person who can do all the things Jesus did, I'll say he or she has ended the journey. I don't doubt that SR is I and My Father are One. But I say journey's end is it being permanent. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 25, 2022 10:16:28 GMT -5
"storehouse"? who are you and what have you done that needs to be remembered? Storehouse? That's just a reference, part of Yogacara (I can quote or you can google Yogacara storehouse, or neither). I had heard about Yogacara years ago, but not until recently, some study, seen how influential it is in most of Buddhism, from Zen to Tibetan Buddhism. Who are you? is the ultimate question. Every single person has to answer that question, for themselves. It's like a candle, you keep asking until it literally burns away and disappears, that's the meaning of Nirvana, to blow out. But the blowing out isn't the end, it's just the end of the caterpillar. But the OP explains why there is no such thing as reincarnation, and why there is such a thing as reincarnation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ self-remembering is "remembering" the Oversoul. (remembering is just a word, a placeholder, it doesn't mean remembering (the past), but it does mean remembering. You could say it means remembering the future. Everything depends upon a certain quantity and quality of energy, a certain frequency of vibration). |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 25, 2022 10:49:16 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a person. I think the ND argument is that there isn't a person in the same way there's a body, an actual object that you can touch, taste, see, etc. I think what folks are saying is that the "person" is a concept, a construct. In that regard, not a real, "physical," thing, but rather a product of thought.
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 25, 2022 11:01:37 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a person. I think the ND argument is that there isn't a person in the same way there's a body, an actual object that you can touch, taste, see, etc. I think what folks are saying is that the "person" is a concept, a construct. In that regard, not a real, " physical," thing, but rather a product of thought. Btw, I'd say a majority of ND folk believe the "person" reincarnates, transcends the body. Those that don't are in the minority. What I have a problem with is when folks try to explain how Reality works. It's a natural impulse to try to explain how things work, but it seems futile. It's a mystery that this small thought machine can't begin to fathom. |
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Post by sree on Oct 25, 2022 11:33:19 GMT -5
You are using my name in vain in this conversation, stardust. My perceptions, shared in English in this forum, are not derivations of either science or religion. No one before me had denied our existence as human beings on planet earth. Even Krishnamurti, whose testimony of his transcendent experience of the real world I neither question nor dismiss, did not do that. He could not dissemble the concepts of physics for Bohm’s consideration. I have come not to fulfill your list of acronyms but to destroy them all and set you free. After 2000 years, you have not changed. Your knee-jerk response is to humiliate and crucify me.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 25, 2022 11:50:01 GMT -5
You are using my name in vain in this conversation, stardust. My perceptions, shared in English in this forum, are not derivations of either science or religion. No one before me had denied our existence as human beings on planet earth. Even Krishnamurti, whose testimony of his transcendent experience of the real world I neither question nor dismiss, did that. He could not dissemble the concepts of physics for Bohm’s consideration. I have come not to fulfill your list of acronyms but to destroy them all and set you free. After 2000 years, you have not changed. Your knee-jerk response is to humiliate and crucify me.
I just got back from my first walk. Walking I realized I had neglected you. sree has deliberately aborted the process. Whatever it is we are, we're all in this together, sree doesn't get to make his own rules. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 25, 2022 12:32:42 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a person. I think the ND argument is that there isn't a person in the same way there's a body, an actual object that you can touch, taste, see, etc. I think what folks are saying is that the "person" is a concept, a construct. In that regard, not a real, " physical," thing, but rather a product of thought. Btw, I'd say a majority of ND folk believe the "person" reincarnates, transcends the body. Those that don't are in the minority. What I have a problem with is when folks try to explain how Reality works. It's a natural impulse to try to explain how things work, but it seems futile. It's a mystery that this small thought machine can't begin to fathom. Thanks. I consider it accurate take some people have completed the journey. I'm pretty sure Jesus existed, that he could read and write, he didn't leave a written record (that we know of, I presume he didn't). It's probably fairly accurate that Lao Tzu was 'retiring from the world' and would have rode off alone, but one guy asked for a record. It's also probably true that other people over the years contributed to the Tao Te Ching, and even Lao Tzu probably didn't originate all of the part he wrote, he had probably collected some stuff along the way. It's reported Buddha didn't teach all that he knew, he was interested in getting people free of suffering. Other's that got a long way have left a record. But any abstraction is only a map, even if the territory had-been traversed. I'm 100% sure Jesus gave interior practices. So you are correct, an abstract expression is just a puff of smoke. Gurdjieff left a very long and very wordy expression, 1238 pages, the first series, Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson, and the the second and third series. In 1924, after a very serious auto accident, while he was recuperating, he decided it was necessary to at least record in theory the teaching, he said exactly that. After the 'first draft', Gurdjieff had Beelzebub's Tales read to his groups while he watched people's reactions. He kept rewriting and editing until just before he died in 1949. It was almost as if he willed himself to live until the EP Dutton contract to publish, and getting it ready for publication, he was still not happy with the final draft, but it was good enough. It was published in 1950. He has numerous made-up words, he knew several languages, so they have meaning and can be combinations of different languages. He also said once he knew the knowledge he wanted to convey, he puffed it up, he left some dead ends and included some nonsense. If you look at lists of the 100 best books of the 20th century, BT's is on the list. He gave advice on how to read it, the first time, don't try to understand it, just read it like you would a newspaper. Gurdjieff had a great sense of humor. His great sage which he often quoted in the book is Mullah Nasruddin (he spells it a little differently), the wise-fool of the Muslim Middle East. He gave no methods in Beelzebub's Tales, just theory. He gave no methods in Meetings With Remarkable Men, just stories of men who knew practices. Throughout MWRM he promised to explain in the third series further about what the remarkable men he knew taught him, and what he learned from them (not necessarily the same thing). He somewhat gave some practices in Life Is Real Only Then, When "I Am", the third series, but nothing anywhere near what he had promised in MWRM, to do, what is promised there. And you can't really decipher what he wrote about practices in Life Is Real, unless you already know, you won't be able to attach meaning to the words that do. So Gurdjieff taught there is an inner teaching and an outer teaching, and the inner teaching is never given in the outer teaching. The practices are really all that matter, but they can give life to words. The practices are everything, working with attention and awareness, is everything. I'm not sure that it's accurate that most people here believe there is a self that reincarnates. When I think NDiverse, I think, WWZD_? How can an imaginary self reincarnate? When one sees through the illusion of self, that's it, that's the whole ball of wax, journey over. But that's what I'm saying isn't wholly accurate. So I'm just inviting discussion. I appreciate it. There is a pretty good book by Dainin Katagiri, You Have to Say Something: Manifesting Zen Insight. He's about as Zen as Zen can get, his books are very valuable. He basically says, even though nothing significant can be put into words, you have to say something. I wholly agree with this. But there is more accessible to us than this little pea-brain is capable of. Ten Books, in Three Series, of which this is the First Series FIRST SERIES: Three books under the title of “An Objectively Impartial Criticism of the Life of Man,” or, “Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson.” SECOND SERIES: Three books under the common title of “Meetings with Remarkable Men.” THIRD SERIES: Four books under the common title of “Life is Real Only Then, When ‘I Am.’” All written according to entirely new principles of logical reasoning and strictly directed towards the solution of the following three cardinal problems: FIRST SERIES: To destroy, mercilessly, without any compromises whatsoever, in the mentation and feelings of the reader, the beliefs and views, by centuries rooted in him, about everything existing in the world. SECOND SERIES: To acquaint the reader with the material required for a new creation and to prove the soundness and good quality of it. THIRD SERIES: To assist the arising, in the mentation and in the feelings of the reader, of a veritable, non-fantastic representation not of that illusory world which he now perceives, but of the world existing in reality. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 25, 2022 13:32:32 GMT -5
Btw, I'd say a majority of ND folk believe the "person" reincarnates, transcends the body. Those that don't are in the minority. What I have a problem with is when folks try to explain how Reality works. It's a natural impulse to try to explain how things work, but it seems futile. It's a mystery that this small thought machine can't begin to fathom. Thanks. I consider it accurate take some people have completed the journey. I'm pretty sure Jesus existed, that he could read and write, he didn't leave a written record (that we know of, I presume he didn't). It's probably fairly accurate that Lao Tzu was 'retiring from the world' and would have rode off alone, but one guy asked for a record. It's also probably true that other people over the years contributed to the Tao Te Ching, and even Lao Tzu probably didn't originate all of the part he wrote, he had probably collected some stuff along the way. It's reported Buddha didn't teach all that he knew, he was interested in getting people free of suffering. Other's that got a long way have left a record. But any abstraction is only a map, even if the territory had-been traversed. I'm 100% sure Jesus gave interior practices. So you are correct, an abstract expression is just a puff of smoke. Gurdjieff left a very long and very wordy expression, 1238 pages, the first series, Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson, and the the second and third series. In 1924, after a very serious auto accident, while he was recuperating, he decided it was necessary to at least record in theory the teaching, he said exactly that. He gave no methods in Beelzebub's Tales, just theory. He gave no methods in Meetings With Remarkable Men, just stories of men who knew practices. Throughout MWRM he promised to explain in the third series further about what the remarkable men he knew taught him, and what he learned from them (not necessarily the same thing). He somewhat gave some practices in Life Is Real Only Then, When "I Am", the third series, but nothing anywhere near what he had promised in MWRM, to do, what is promised there. And you can't really decipher what he wrote about practices in Life Is Real, unless you already know, you won't be able to attach meaning to the words that do. So Gurdjieff taught there is an inner teaching and an outer teaching, and the inner teaching is never given in the outer teaching. The practices are really all that matter, but they can give life to words. The practices are everything, working with attention and awareness, is everything. I'm not sure that it's accurate that most people here believe there is a self that reincarnates. When I think NDiverse, I think, WWZD_? How can an imaginary self reincarnate? When one sees through the illusion of self, that's it, that's the whole ball of wax, journey over. But that's what I'm saying isn't wholly accurate. So I'm just inviting discussion. I appreciate it. There is a pretty good book by Dainin Katagiri, You Have to Say Something: Manifesting Zen Insight. He's about as Zen as Zen can get, his books are very valuable. He basically says, even though nothing significant can be put into words, you have to say something. I wholly agree with this. But there is more accessible to us than this little pea-brain is capable of. I'm in agreement with Gurdief's view of practice. Sounds like Dogen. True about folks here scoffing at rebirth. But this place is densely populated with homegrown ND folk. I mean overall. |
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Post by sree on Oct 25, 2022 15:01:17 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a person. I think the ND argument is that there isn't a person in the same way there's a body, an actual object that you can touch, taste, see, etc. I think what folks are saying is that the "person" is a concept, a construct. In that regard, not a real, " physical," thing, but rather a product of thought. Btw, I'd say a majority of ND folk believe the "person" reincarnates, transcends the body. Those that don't are in the minority. What I have a problem with is when folks try to explain how Reality works. It's a natural impulse to try to explain how things work, but it seems futile. It's a mystery that this small thought machine can't begin to fathom. It is futile because the impulse has no drive behind it. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 25, 2022 17:25:17 GMT -5
Btw, I'd say a majority of ND folk believe the "person" reincarnates, transcends the body. Those that don't are in the minority. What I have a problem with is when folks try to explain how Reality works. It's a natural impulse to try to explain how things work, but it seems futile. It's a mystery that this small thought machine can't begin to fathom. It is futile because the impulse has no drive behind it. Futility regarding just how no-thing masquerades as everything. |
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Post by sree on Oct 25, 2022 18:45:36 GMT -5
It is futile because the impulse has no drive behind it. Futility regarding just how no-thing masquerades as everything. Why can't you guys be simple and talk down-to-earth sane? It's always poetry: words that evoke imaginary stuff.
I have to admit that I got swept away by you fellas and started spouting word salads until someNOTHING jolted me awake.
Word salads are pretty hypnotic. It's no different from speaking in tongues. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 25, 2022 20:53:43 GMT -5
Futility regarding just how no-thing masquerades as everything. Why can't you guys be simple and talk down-to-earth sane? It's always poetry: words that evoke imaginary stuff. I have to admit that I got swept away by you fellas and started spouting word salads until someNOTHING jolted me awake. Word salads are pretty hypnotic. It's no different from speaking in tongues. That's pretty clear, what zazeniac said. The unmanifest is no- thing. As analogy, in a quantum state, particles, things, do not exist. In the quantum state what-is consists of spread-out no-things, this is called superposition. This is science, as hard science as exists. Our ordinary classical world consists of things, particles. But there aren't two worlds, only one world. So, no-things masquerade as everything. No word salads. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 25, 2022 21:17:06 GMT -5
Futility regarding just how no-thing masquerades as everything. Why can't you guys be simple and talk down-to-earth sane? It's always poetry: words that evoke imaginary stuff.
I have to admit that I got swept away by you fellas and started spouting word salads until someNOTHING jolted me awake.
Word salads are pretty hypnotic. It's no different from speaking in tongues. I don't know if you approve of Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching. But it starts with " the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao." |
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