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Post by laughter on Oct 28, 2022 5:35:26 GMT -5
The body minds itself. Don't believe me? Hold your breath. Or, better yet, decide not to take a piss. Your sense of "minding the body" is at best, referring to observation. You cannot stop your body from breathing, neither can you stop your body from pissing. Are you a goat or a donkey pissing and shitting where you stand or walk? Laffy, can you post a pix of what you look like? .. ah, and you see, "minding the mind", that seems to be a completely different story from "minding the body".  |
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Post by sree on Oct 28, 2022 10:11:49 GMT -5
There is no bs in me. Minding the body is not bs. It is necessary, and that's all I do. When the body is quiet, and my chores are done, reflection arises from moment to moment. As Krishnamurti said, life is an unbroken movement in meditation, and not just when you are sitting cross legged doing Zen to get TPTPAU.
Death of the body is a certainty. The self vanishes every night when the body sleeps. Sleep is no different from death. It's the memory, the recall of experiences of the self, that conjures the presence of the self as a human being alive on planet earth.
Then you are a bottom-up guy and not a top-down guy. You believe "consciousness" arises from brain processing and not that brain processing arises from consciousness.Krishnamurti (you have to read between the lines) disagrees. In the '70's I read Alan Watt's autobiography, In My Own Way. He spent a few pages in J Krishnamurti, talked about his history. He said if Krishnamurti was Maitreya, the New World Teacher, returned, as the Theosophists believed, he would have done exactly as he did, dissolve The Order of the Star in the East (which then had more members than even the Theosophical Society), and teach on his own. No, I don't. Why do you jump to that conclusion? Memory is a phenomenon of consciousness that does not come from the brain. Perception is also a phenomenon of consciousness. Cognition is a phenomenon of consciousness. Thought is a phenomenon of consciousness. Thought does not come from the brain cells as Krishnamurti said. I will give him a pass on that because he was conversing as a layman trying to make himself understood by intellectuals of science who were in the same mindset as zazeniac.
zazeniac concluded that he came from his head based on his reasoning that he would disappear if he chopped off his head. This is the current consensus worldview, and yours also. How many times have I stated in this forum that I am not a human being on planet earth? This statement did not sink in, did it? If I am not a human organism, how can I have a human head which you guys believe is where you - memory and all - come from?
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Post by sree on Oct 28, 2022 10:42:43 GMT -5
You cannot stop your body from breathing, neither can you stop your body from pissing. Are you a goat or a donkey pissing and shitting where you stand or walk? Laffy, can you post a pix of what you look like? .. ah, and you see, "minding the mind", that seems to be a completely different story from "minding the body". I don't know what you are talking about here. Anyway, I realize that my lifestyle is not everybody else's lifestyle. So, "minding the body" to you can be rather basic. Minding the body to a goat entails just walking about to find things to nibble. It is totally unaware of its droppings which contributes to the eco-system. It doesn't even have to wipe its ass.
I have fresh flowers everyday in my home. They are cut from the garden. Not everyone feels this is a must for their homes. This is part and parcel of "minding the body" to me. There are a whole lot of other things I have to do in minding the body because of this messed up world you won't help me fix up.
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Post by sree on Oct 28, 2022 11:01:29 GMT -5
No, it is not appropriate. You guys are just fooling around here. Your life has to be on the line. It has to be about you, a matter critically important to you. Do you care if the USA is moving liberal? Seriously, what are you? Can we treat this forum as a hexagonal cage and we are not fooling around? Real combatants facing death and out to destroy each other. Psychologically. Pick a hexagram, together. Each one throw the coins to pick a line. Six of us. Who do you think is worth a damn in this forum? You? If you feel you matter, then there are 5 more. I will throw my name in the ring. This leaves 4 more. Is there anyone else?
We can form the question together once we have six guys who are not just shooting the bull here.
Answer the question: "who/what is it that would seek to annihilate?", and the conflict seeking will stop. On a dime. I don't really know. I have been looking at this matter with total attention to the exclusion of everything else.
You see this conflict as a personal matter, something within that psychiatrists and psychologists grapple with and treat. And when they can't help, you try to do it yourself as an autodidact.
The conflict I seek to stop is reported in the news. Don't you understand, Laffy? This conflict is between real people using real guns, bullets and bombs. Just becasue I am chatting with you doesn't mean I am a whacko seeking the peace that passeth all understanding, something you have found.
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Post by laughter on Oct 28, 2022 12:17:45 GMT -5
Answer the question: "who/what is it that would seek to annihilate?", and the conflict seeking will stop. On a dime. I don't really know. I have been looking at this matter with total attention to the exclusion of everything else.
You see this conflict as a personal matter, something within that psychiatrists and psychologists grapple with and treat. And when they can't help, you try to do it yourself as an autodidact.
The conflict I seek to stop is reported in the news. Don't you understand, Laffy? This conflict is between real people using real guns, bullets and bombs. Just becasue I am chatting with you doesn't mean I am a whacko seeking the peace that passeth all understanding, something you have found.
No, this is your imagination. And you're changing the subject, because you described your conflict seeking on this forum, not the media reports of far away events. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 13:34:00 GMT -5
Answer the question: "who/what is it that would seek to annihilate?", and the conflict seeking will stop. On a dime. I don't really know. I have been looking at this matter with total attention to the exclusion of everything else.
You see this conflict as a personal matter, something within that psychiatrists and psychologists grapple with and treat. And when they can't help, you try to do it yourself as an autodidact.
The conflict I seek to stop is reported in the news. Don't you understand, Laffy? This conflict is between real people using real guns, bullets and bombs. Just becasue I am chatting with you doesn't mean I am a whacko seeking the peace that passeth all understanding, something you have found.
What actions do you take to stop wars and violence reported "in the news"? I ask because from my view, I don't see how one can focus on stopping world drama like war and bombs when one hasn't resolved issues much closer to home/self. I don't mean to put you down or pretend I'm superior by saying that. We're in the same boat. The roots of unnecessary violence are within each person as primordial ego fear, and the mind games that seek to repress and hide it. I think we need to deal with it there, not in some idea (that never happens) about how you're going to save the world and change other people. I think the "wise men" are right - the external world you see is a projection of your inner self. And that's a more productive direction to go investigate. |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 28, 2022 13:53:39 GMT -5
inavalan, I have a serious question, if you will, would? I also kind of need it today, or tomorrow. I had pretty much resolved it, but this would help. Last week I met someone on the internet. After 10 days, should I, stardustpilgrim continue communicating with this person? I understand that you already know a lot about the I Ching, and just want to get a second opinion. The way I understand this to work, you should get better results if you concentrate yourself on your problem, and do the draw. The inquiry (per R L Wing's instructions) should be more on the lines of "what would be the result of doing that", than "should I do it". So an inquiry that doesn't ask for a straight yes / no answer gives better guidance. The interpretation of the answer should be more accurate when you do it yourself. On the other hand, if you aren't used to the I Ching, it is possible that a person more familiar with it to get better results. In my experience, the changing lines give the direct guidance about how to act. In this case, 4 lines are changing, and the 5th is marked to be the most significant to consider. I hope that this exercise helps you. From all the I Ching books and sites, R L Wing's seems the best, and J P Guyonnaud's a close second. The yarrow have been drawn.... The present is embodied in Hexagram 9 - Hsiao Ch'u (The Taming Power of the Small): There will be progress and success. We see dense clouds, but no rain coming from our borders in the west. The first (bottommost) line, undivided, shows its subject returning and pursuing his own course. What mistake should he fall into? There will be good fortune. The second line, undivided, shows it subject, by the attraction of the former line, returning to the proper course. There will be good fortune. The third line, undivided, suggests the idea of a carriage, the strap beneath which has been removed, or of a husband and wife looking on each other with averted eyes. The fifth line, undivided, shows its subject possessed of sincerity, and drawing others to unite with him. Rich in resources, he employs his neighbours in the same cause with himself. The situation is changing rapidly, and Yin (the passive feminine force) is gaining ground. The future is embodied in Hexagram 23 - Po (Splitting Apart): It will not be advantageous to move in any direction whatever. The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Sun (Wind), which is transforming into Ken (Mountain). As part of this process, penetration and following are giving way to stillness and obstruction. The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram Chi'en (Heaven), which is transforming into K'un (Earth). As part of this process, strength and creativity are giving way to docility and receptivity.    |
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Post by sree on Oct 28, 2022 14:44:39 GMT -5
I don't really know. I have been looking at this matter with total attention to the exclusion of everything else.
You see this conflict as a personal matter, something within that psychiatrists and psychologists grapple with and treat. And when they can't help, you try to do it yourself as an autodidact.
The conflict I seek to stop is reported in the news. Don't you understand, Laffy? This conflict is between real people using real guns, bullets and bombs. Just becasue I am chatting with you doesn't mean I am a whacko seeking the peace that passeth all understanding, something you have found.
What actions do you take to stop wars and violence reported "in the news"? I ask because from my view, I don't see how one can focus on stopping world drama like war and bombs when one hasn't resolved issues much closer to home/self. I don't mean to put you down or pretend I'm superior by saying that. We're in the same boat. The roots of unnecessary violence are within each person as primordial ego fear, and the mind games that seek to repress and hide it. I think we need to deal with it there, not in some idea (that never happens) about how you're going to save the world and change other people. I think the "wise men" are right - the external world you see is a projection of your inner self. And that's a more productive direction to go investigate. No, you are not putting me down. I don't get any neurotic vibes from you. andrew is also emotionally stable guy, I think.
Who do you think those idiots are, the ones causing world dramas of the kind that can hurt you and me? Do you think those suckers put in place by us through the democratic process to run governments are any different from the members in this forum?
The reason why my body is not put at risk and I won't get physically hurt in this forum is because this is a virtual public space. I can feel the venom running in the veins of people here. I regard this place as a laboratory. So, I prod the beasts and watch them hiss and strike me here in virtual space. The politicians in power are driven by the same demons. Let's use the I Ching and exorcise the devils if we can.Nothing to lose. Right?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2022 15:19:57 GMT -5
What actions do you take to stop wars and violence reported "in the news"? I ask because from my view, I don't see how one can focus on stopping world drama like war and bombs when one hasn't resolved issues much closer to home/self. I don't mean to put you down or pretend I'm superior by saying that. We're in the same boat. The roots of unnecessary violence are within each person as primordial ego fear, and the mind games that seek to repress and hide it. I think we need to deal with it there, not in some idea (that never happens) about how you're going to save the world and change other people. I think the "wise men" are right - the external world you see is a projection of your inner self. And that's a more productive direction to go investigate. No, you are not putting me down. I don't get any neurotic vibes from you. andrew is also emotionally stable guy, I think.
Who do you think those idiots are, the ones causing world dramas of the kind that can hurt you and me? Do you think those suckers put in place by us through the democratic process to run governments are any different from the members in this forum?
The reason why my body is not put at risk and I won't get physically hurt in this forum is because this is a virtual public space. I can feel the venom running in the veins of people here. I regard this place as a laboratory. So, I prod the beasts and watch them hiss and strike me here in virtual space. The politicians in power are driven by the same demons. Let's use the I Ching and exorcise the devils if we can.Nothing to lose. Right? No thanks, I'm not interested in the I Ching. If it works for you, great. |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 28, 2022 15:20:55 GMT -5
I've figured that out a while ago already, all without the Yjing.  But that's where I see the usefulness of such predictive techniques like (horary) astrology, tarot or the Yijing, to confirm what you already knew as a gut feeling, but didn't dare to accept intellectually. These techniques will help you accept it intellectually. If used that way, one would use these predictive techniques to one's advantage and I wouldn't discourage anyone doing that. If, however, someone has no reading at all on their inner guidance or doesn't even care and then uses these predictive techniques to come to a decision, that's like gambling and I would strongly advice against it, because it will not only create a dependency on these techniques for an otherwise naturally unfolding decision process, but it will also render these techniques ineffective if only employed out of curiosity or speculation. Because these techniques only work if there's a genuine interest and personal involvement in the matter inquired. I think that consulting the I Ching can be a valuable way of accessing inner-guidance. In my experience, the I Ching works well in most cases. Surely, that depends on what it is expected to deliver, how it is approached. I recall situations in which some time later I realized that it was I who misinterpreted the guidance. Why the I Ching works, what inner-guidance is, what's its role, ... I have a working model. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 28, 2022 20:12:33 GMT -5
Then you are a bottom-up guy and not a top-down guy. You believe "consciousness" arises from brain processing and not that brain processing arises from consciousness.Krishnamurti (you have to read between the lines) disagrees. In the '70's I read Alan Watt's autobiography, In My Own Way. He spent a few pages in J Krishnamurti, talked about his history. He said if Krishnamurti was Maitreya, the New World Teacher, returned, as the Theosophists believed, he would have done exactly as he did, dissolve The Order of the Star in the East (which then had more members than even the Theosophical Society), and teach on his own. No, I don't. Why do you jump to that conclusion? Memory is a phenomenon of consciousness that does not come from the brain. Perception is also a phenomenon of consciousness. Cognition is a phenomenon of consciousness. Thought is a phenomenon of consciousness. Thought does not come from the brain cells as Krishnamurti said. I will give him a pass on that because he was conversing as a layman trying to make himself understood by intellectuals of science who were in the same mindset as zazeniac.
zazeniac concluded that he came from his head based on his reasoning that he would disappear if he chopped off his head. This is the current consensus worldview, and yours also. How many times have I stated in this forum that I am not a human being on planet earth? This statement did not sink in, did it? If I am not a human organism, how can I have a human head which you guys believe is where you - memory and all - come from?
You said the self vanishes every night when the body sleeps. I guess I didn't know what your point was. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 28, 2022 20:15:57 GMT -5
sree, I most people here are playing a different "sport" than you are. "Rugby" and "soccer" don't mix well. That's all it is.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 28, 2022 20:23:43 GMT -5
inavalan, I have a serious question, if you will, would? I also kind of need it today, or tomorrow. I had pretty much resolved it, but this would help. Last week I met someone on the internet. After 10 days, should I, stardustpilgrim continue communicating with this person? I understand that you already know a lot about the I Ching, and just want to get a second opinion. The way I understand this to work, you should get better results if you concentrate yourself on your problem, and do the draw. The inquiry (per R L Wing's instructions) should be more on the lines of "what would be the result of doing that", than "should I do it". So an inquiry that doesn't ask for a straight yes / no answer gives better guidance. The interpretation of the answer should be more accurate when you do it yourself. On the other hand, if you aren't used to the I Ching, it is possible that a person more familiar with it to get better results. In my experience, the changing lines give the direct guidance about how to act. In this case, 4 lines are changing, and the 5th is marked to be the most significant to consider. I hope that this exercise helps you. From all the I Ching books and sites, R L Wing's seems the best, and J P Guyonnaud's a close second. The yarrow have been drawn.... The present is embodied in Hexagram 9 - Hsiao Ch'u (The Taming Power of the Small): There will be progress and success. We see dense clouds, but no rain coming from our borders in the west. The first (bottommost) line, undivided, shows its subject returning and pursuing his own course. What mistake should he fall into? There will be good fortune. The second line, undivided, shows it subject, by the attraction of the former line, returning to the proper course. There will be good fortune. The third line, undivided, suggests the idea of a carriage, the strap beneath which has been removed, or of a husband and wife looking on each other with averted eyes. The fifth line, undivided, shows its subject possessed of sincerity, and drawing others to unite with him. Rich in resources, he employs his neighbours in the same cause with himself. The situation is changing rapidly, and Yin (the passive feminine force) is gaining ground. The future is embodied in Hexagram 23 - Po (Splitting Apart): It will not be advantageous to move in any direction whatever. The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Sun (Wind), which is transforming into Ken (Mountain). As part of this process, penetration and following are giving way to stillness and obstruction. The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram Chi'en (Heaven), which is transforming into K'un (Earth). As part of this process, strength and creativity are giving way to docility and receptivity. View Attachment View Attachment View AttachmentThanks, this works very well. |
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Post by sree on Oct 28, 2022 22:18:39 GMT -5
No, I don't. Why do you jump to that conclusion? Memory is a phenomenon of consciousness that does not come from the brain. Perception is also a phenomenon of consciousness. Cognition is a phenomenon of consciousness. Thought is a phenomenon of consciousness. Thought does not come from the brain cells as Krishnamurti said. I will give him a pass on that because he was conversing as a layman trying to make himself understood by intellectuals of science who were in the same mindset as zazeniac.
zazeniac concluded that he came from his head based on his reasoning that he would disappear if he chopped off his head. This is the current consensus worldview, and yours also. How many times have I stated in this forum that I am not a human being on planet earth? This statement did not sink in, did it? If I am not a human organism, how can I have a human head which you guys believe is where you - memory and all - come from?
You said the self vanishes every night when the body sleeps. I guess I didn't know what your point was. The body is a phenomenon of consciousness also. Consciousness is the source of everything. I don't know what consciousness is. You can call it the Tao, if you like. After all, consciousness is indeed the source of the ten thousand things. Right? And it is mysterious. Self vanishes in sleep and does return next morning. I wish it doesn't because life is meaningless. Like I said, the heart keeps beating for no purpose. The leaves of the trees in my garden have turned yellow and practically all fallen from the trees. They will come back next spring. For what purpose? At least they don't suffer but we do. Life after life, we suffer.
Poor you. I think you should take it easy and keep your feet on the ground. Stay out of trouble. Live out your life with your family, your grandkids. When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 0:03:55 GMT -5
You said the self vanishes every night when the body sleeps. I guess I didn't know what your point was. The body is a phenomenon of consciousness also. Consciousness is the source of everything. I don't know what consciousness is. You can call it the Tao, if you like. After all, consciousness is indeed the source of the ten thousand things. Right? And it is mysterious. Self vanishes in sleep and does return next morning. I wish it doesn't because life is meaningless. Like I said, the heart keeps beating for no purpose. The leaves of the trees in my garden have turned yellow and practically all fallen from the trees. They will come back next spring. For what purpose? At least they don't suffer but we do. Life after life, we suffer.
Poor you. I think you should take it easy and keep your feet on the ground. Stay out of trouble. Live out your life with your family, your grandkids. When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point.
If you don't even survive sleep what identity or individuality is going to survive to "return" to anything? If it's just universal consciousness, then we could as easily say that you and I are re-incarnations of each other. |
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