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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 13:01:39 GMT -5
Sleep is time out for the self. Sleep is also a phenomenon of consciousness. You cannot watch your body sleep. Someone can testify that he can watch his body sleep and provide evidence to prove that. So what? What good is that ability for stopping human violence, the war in Ukraine or ending poverty in the world?
As a relevant matter to practical life, sleep is when the self is not. The self is not the person. The self masquerades as a person. It has to act as a person because this is the way life is being lived as a matter of universal consensus in the world. The self is necessary for purpose of physical navigation. The person is also necessary for the purpose of social identification. This is the way human cultural life has evolved.
Social identity is a tool. It’s like a name card you pin on your shirt when attending a convention or meeting. Why does the name card needs to survive? To return to where? When the meeting/convention is over, you thrown the name card in the trash bin. Similarly, the self vanishes as in sleep when the life of the body is over. It dies and gets thrown in the incinerator as biological waste.
Individuality is an idea. It returns to the list of acronyms enshrined in this forum. Okay. You mentioned (perhaps as a joke) reincarnation. So I asked you what identity existed that could reincarnate. Here you seem to say: none; there is no reincarnation, no eternal individual soul to reincarnate. Okay. If that's the truth, the vast majority of humanity cannot accept it and breeds all kinds of religious and spiritual ideas to hide from it. I'm skeptical that you have accepted it and view it like throwing out a "name card". I think we have deeper attachment to our "self" than that.
Your skepticism is well-founded. What I am attached to is not the “name card” we pin to the “self”. I am attached to this mysterious wonder from which springs every magical thing in life. The blue sky is pure magic if you don’t wreck it with the belief that light is a spectrum of colors and blue light is scattered more by Earth’s atmosphere because it has the shortest wavelength. The two guys here who swear by this belief are science aficionado stardust, and our resident scientist, zendancer.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 29, 2022 13:18:41 GMT -5
Okay. You mentioned (perhaps as a joke) reincarnation. So I asked you what identity existed that could reincarnate. Here you seem to say: none; there is no reincarnation, no eternal individual soul to reincarnate. Okay. If that's the truth, the vast majority of humanity cannot accept it and breeds all kinds of religious and spiritual ideas to hide from it. I'm skeptical that you have accepted it and view it like throwing out a "name card". I think we have deeper attachment to our "self" than that.
Your skepticism is well-founded. What I am attached to is not the “name card” we pin to the “self”. I am attached to this mysterious wonder from which springs every magical thing in life. The blue sky is pure magic if you don’t wreck it with the belief that light is a spectrum of colors and blue light is scattered more by Earth’s atmosphere because it has the shortest wavelength. The two guys here who swear by this belief are science aficionado stardust, and our resident scientist, zendancer. Anyone who wants to find the truth must go beyond the intellect. The intellect only deals with images, ideas, and symbols, so it only deals with the known. To find what lies beyond the known (what Jesus called "the living truth"), one must, in the words of Jacob Boehm, "throw oneself into that where no creature dwelleth." Best wishes.
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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 13:25:47 GMT -5
Ok, this is a serious statement. Can you bring up that post; otherwise, give me the context in which I used that dirty word (reincarnation). I am not here to shoot the bull and take what I say here seriously. Just scroll up on this page (8). I quoted you and even underlined the quote when I responded. You didn't use the exact word "reincarnate", but you clearly mentioned the concept. Here's a section of your statement, again, for your convenience. The underline was mine: "... When the body dies, hopefully in sleep, the pain of being human will be over. If you are lucky, it will all be over. If not, you could return as Gopal, not this Gopal but some other Gopal in India, a beggar in a wretched town. Consciousness never dies. This is my point." Thanks for taking the trouble to post the above.
I was replying to stardust and shifted from talking to him, the "name card" on a one-to-one basis, to reflective mode when I used the word "you" as a general term. People come back continually like leaves of trees returning every Spring, don't they? It's always a new leaf without a past life. It's the same with people, but the self - a phenomenon of consciousness - never dies. It returns to suffer. I don't want to come back as an Anthony Bourdain, another Momo who wants to die.
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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 14:05:37 GMT -5
I know you guys are playing, whatever it is that you are playing. You have turned spirituality into a mind game. It wasn’t a game that Jesus was playing. He put his life on the line and paid for it. Spiritual commitment was that dangerous back then because warning each other of danger had to be done physically, literally face- to- face, using the body. If the other guy didn’t like what you said, he would arrange to have your body killed. Life was pretty brutal back in those days and Jesus told his people that their spirituality was wrong, that they mustn’t take eye for an eye. They must stop doing that and break the cycle of violence by turning the other cheek instead.
I am doing the same thing here, stardust. Stop playing games. You guys have to get serious if you want to free humanity from suffering. As Krishnamurti said, humanity is not just out there separate from you. Humanity - both out there and in here - is you. game = metaphor. that said, it will take thousands and thousands of years, if ever, for humanity to change. we could feed the whole planet within a year, and from that, forever. greed and power get in the way. those have to cease to be perpetuated, one generation at a time. snot going to happen any time soon. but bravo for you for trying. but best not try to stand against a tsunami (greed and power). You are thinking about the result of change. Isn't that greed and power: the desire for a goal? This is the ideology of politics and spirituality.
To get to B, we must move from A. And the movement from A to B takes time and effort.
The breaking of a spell, the curse in which humanity is caught, is instantaneous: attending to the actual without thought (ATA-T).
Is it a load of bs or what?
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Post by tenka on Oct 29, 2022 14:24:11 GMT -5
Your skepticism is well-founded. What I am attached to is not the “name card” we pin to the “self”. I am attached to this mysterious wonder from which springs every magical thing in life. The blue sky is pure magic if you don’t wreck it with the belief that light is a spectrum of colors and blue light is scattered more by Earth’s atmosphere because it has the shortest wavelength. The two guys here who swear by this belief are science aficionado stardust, and our resident scientist, zendancer. Anyone who wants to find the truth must go beyond the intellect. The intellect only deals with images, ideas, and symbols, so it only deals with the known. To find what lies beyond the known (what Jesus called "the living truth"), one must, in the words of Jacob Boehm, "throw oneself into that where no creature dwelleth." Best wishes. Although I have always claimed that beyond the intellect there isn't any truth ...
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Post by zendancer on Oct 29, 2022 14:31:46 GMT -5
game = metaphor. that said, it will take thousands and thousands of years, if ever, for humanity to change. we could feed the whole planet within a year, and from that, forever. greed and power get in the way. those have to cease to be perpetuated, one generation at a time. snot going to happen any time soon. but bravo for you for trying. but best not try to stand against a tsunami (greed and power). You are thinking about the result of change. Isn't that greed and power: the desire for a goal? This is the ideology of politics and spirituality.
To get to B, we must move from A. And the movement from A to B takes time and effort. The breaking of a spell, the curse in which humanity is caught, is instantaneous: attending to the actual without thought (ATA-T). Is it a load of bs or what?
There is no movement from point A to point B because there is no point B except in imagination. There is also no separate volitional entity who does anything; that's the fundamental illusion underlying all other cognitive illusions. As for whether ATA-T is or isn't useful, one can experiment and find out. No need to take someone else's word for anything.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 29, 2022 14:33:39 GMT -5
Anyone who wants to find the truth must go beyond the intellect. The intellect only deals with images, ideas, and symbols, so it only deals with the known. To find what lies beyond the known (what Jesus called "the living truth"), one must, in the words of Jacob Boehm, "throw oneself into that where no creature dwelleth." Best wishes. Although I have always claimed that beyond the intellect there isn't any truth ... Yes, but you're a special case.
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Post by tenka on Oct 29, 2022 14:40:33 GMT -5
Although I have always claimed that beyond the intellect there isn't any truth ... Yes, but you're a special case. Thanks, I think
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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 14:42:42 GMT -5
Anyone who wants to find the truth must go beyond the intellect. The intellect only deals with images, ideas, and symbols, so it only deals with the known. To find what lies beyond the known (what Jesus called "the living truth"), one must, in the words of Jacob Boehm, "throw oneself into that where no creature dwelleth." Best wishes. Although I have always claimed that beyond the intellect there isn't any truth ... Beyond the intellect is the unknown where truth can be found, said zendancer. And you say that truth is within the the grasp of the intellect. So, could his kind of truth be out there, and your kind of truth is within the world we know?
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Post by tenka on Oct 29, 2022 14:46:59 GMT -5
Although I have always claimed that beyond the intellect there isn't any truth ... Beyond the intellect is the unknown where truth can be found, said zendancer. And you say that truth is within the the grasp of the intellect. So, could his kind of truth be out there, and your kind of truth is within the world we know? Truth is intellectually based . You know what truth means derivers from the intellect associating what something is to be that . There is no truth beyond the thought of it . It's one of those pointer thingies . Non conceptual truths make me gag
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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 14:47:13 GMT -5
You are thinking about the result of change. Isn't that greed and power: the desire for a goal? This is the ideology of politics and spirituality.
To get to B, we must move from A. And the movement from A to B takes time and effort. The breaking of a spell, the curse in which humanity is caught, is instantaneous: attending to the actual without thought (ATA-T). Is it a load of bs or what?
There is no movement from point A to point B because there is no point B except in imagination. There is also no separate volitional entity who does anything; that's the fundamental illusion underlying all other cognitive illusions. As for whether ATA-T is or isn't useful, one can experiment and find out. No need to take someone else's word for anything. Ok, then. Please set up an experiment for us to find out.
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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 14:56:53 GMT -5
Beyond the intellect is the unknown where truth can be found, said zendancer. And you say that truth is within the the grasp of the intellect. So, could his kind of truth be out there, and your kind of truth is within the world we know? Truth is intellectually based . You know what truth means derivers from the intellect associating what something is to be that . There is no truth beyond the thought of it . It's one of those pointer thingies . Non conceptual truths make me gag Let's keep our minds open to the possibility of truths that cannot be conceived. The bottom line is this: Does truths have any value to you and me if they are beyond the intellect?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 29, 2022 14:59:35 GMT -5
game = metaphor. that said, it will take thousands and thousands of years, if ever, for humanity to change. we could feed the whole planet within a year, and from that, forever. greed and power get in the way. those have to cease to be perpetuated, one generation at a time. snot going to happen any time soon. but bravo for you for trying. but best not try to stand against a tsunami (greed and power). You are thinking about the result of change. Isn't that greed and power: the desire for a goal? This is the ideology of politics and spirituality.
To get to B, we must move from A. And the movement from A to B takes time and effort. The breaking of a spell, the curse in which humanity is caught, is instantaneous: attending to the actual without thought (ATA-T). Is it a load of bs or what?
That's the meaning of individuation. It's not going to for the Whole all at once. We traveled this months ago.
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Post by sree on Oct 29, 2022 15:12:14 GMT -5
You are thinking about the result of change. Isn't that greed and power: the desire for a goal? This is the ideology of politics and spirituality.
To get to B, we must move from A. And the movement from A to B takes time and effort. The breaking of a spell, the curse in which humanity is caught, is instantaneous: attending to the actual without thought (ATA-T). Is it a load of bs or what?
That's the meaning of individuation. It's not going to for the Whole all at once. We traveled this months ago. Looks like you are a Theravada guy moving one step at a time. A Zen believes in love at first sight.
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Post by zendancer on Oct 29, 2022 17:06:57 GMT -5
Beyond the intellect is the unknown where truth can be found, said zendancer. And you say that truth is within the the grasp of the intellect. So, could his kind of truth be out there, and your kind of truth is within the world we know? Truth is intellectually based . You know what truth means derivers from the intellect associating what something is to be that . There is no truth beyond the thought of it . It's one of those pointer thingies . Non conceptual truths make me gag There are two kinds of truth, conceptual (episteme) and non-conceptual (gnosis). The first is indirect and involves images, ideas, and symbols; the latter is direct and beyond the intellect. (you're a special case because you define all forms of knowing as thought based
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