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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2022 4:46:11 GMT -5
What? You seemed to be agreeing with Enigma on that part, eh? I do, and I seem to recall him arguing with you about your understanding of it. For years.  So you talk differently while he was here(as a way of supporting him) and when he is not here, you start talking differently? Why don't you try to express what you really think and feel rather than being supportive of certain people? well done! |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 29, 2022 13:42:16 GMT -5
Ok, well, I'll bother to wade into definitions here then. What I mean by reality is not created, but eternal. Creation implies a beginning, but the limitless moment, the Now, has no beginning, has no end, and time has no meaning applied to it. You see, hear, touch and taste, and you objectify based on these senses. To you, this is reality - not an objective physical reality, but still, your "reality" is defined by the appearances that appear to you. Your "reality" is a duality, and this is why it makes sense to you that your beliefs create that reality, because you know full well that objective physical reality is a myth. But you've just traded one misconception for another. As I've written to you dozens of times over the years, reality, is neither objective, nor subjective. You cannot approach reality relatively, you cannot say what is true about reality in direct terms from the personal perspective, you can only say what is false. That clearly makes no sense! I agree. Probably with a different explanation. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 29, 2022 13:45:44 GMT -5
You've linked the two before by logic. Has your perspective on that changed? I don't "follow" " everything moves as one". It can be a pointer if the mind doesn't touch it. What? You seemed to be agreeing with Enigma on that part, eh? " Moves" is a misleading word there, because suggests spatial movement. The movement, expansion is in terms of evolvement, aka value-fulfillment. EDIT: " as one" implies that " everything" (which implies acceptance that there are multiple individual identities) "moves" at the same "speed", which is not so. Identities "move" in terms of value-fulfillment at different "speeds". |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 14:04:03 GMT -5
I do, and I seem to recall him arguing with you about your understanding of it. For years. So you talk differently while he was here(as a way of supporting him) and when he is not here, you start talking differently? Why don't you try to express what you really think and feel rather than being supportive of certain people? well done! E' used it as a pointer, but you touched the pointer with mind. |
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Post by tenka on Nov 29, 2022 15:18:25 GMT -5
I admire Bruce Lee for his discipline and dedication and in a way he was purifying himself in his own way with mind and body . I think Tolle is a good guy, but in order to be where he is at teaching the masses one has to live by example and I don't feel he does . Bruce lee on the other hand lived by his own example I would say . He lived and breathed his practice . So, you are giving both a pass as spiritual teachers? One is driven by greed and the other by violence.
I have been harping about the connection between morality and spirituality in this forum always. Seems to me, right conduct doesn't matter much in new-age western spirituality that peeps expound here.
It's about living by example . It's the inner refection that mirrors outwards . Forget about Bruce Lee being able to kick all our arses at once, it's about his journey to get to that point. Wasn't his point about his craft more to do with fighting without fighting . Or was that just a phrase used in his movie . He didn't say one thing and do another . It would be telling his followers not to eat junk food whilst being addicted to cake . |
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Post by tenka on Nov 29, 2022 15:37:54 GMT -5
.. last year I had a vision of seeing a white car in front of a garage . I intuitively thought that I am going to move and have a new car . Two weeks ago my next-door neighbour had a fire in his garage that swept across to mine and blew up my car and destroyed my garage . I looked for a new car and in a matter of minutes, I brought the car that was in my vision & obviously I am going to have a new garage also .. When I have these sorts of visions that I have had for many years, there doesn't seem to be anything that can stop these things from happening after I have had a vision of such things . It really does make you think that if you can see these things a year from the event, then it's in a way just playing out as it should . First of all .. whoa!  .. sorry to hear of that sort of rather dramatic disruption to your life dude. I've had similar experiences that have opened my mind beyond the conventional, which is why I'm sincerely left with no question as to your claim, and that completely counter to all my old conditioning btw (and apropo of almost nothing). Now then, the question becomes, how do we interpret those? "Everything moves as one" has the potential to be a pointer to the existential truth, but can we conclude from this, or even from these unusual experiences, that all of time already exists and is predetermined? Well, first of all, before we write anything illogical, lets consider how far the intellect can take us. Ramana once addressed this question with the answer along the lines of: "free will and destiny are both ever evident". In conventional, intellectual terms, we can see that we are all destined to die, but then, on the other hand, we don't know how many people we'll have sex with or how much money we'll make between now and then. We can see that the Sun is destined to blow up into a red giant and swallow up the Earth, but we don't know how many people will be alive on the Earth on that distant day or what form humanity will have taken assuming it survives until then and whether or not any of them will have been able to save themselves by escaping out into space.So, in the conventional, intellectual sense we see that the future is a blend of the known, and the unknown. It's pure speculation to discount the unknown. Rather, the closer the future becomes to being the present, the less unknowns there are, the further away it is, the more there are. So in terms of your vision of the white car, I'd speculate that perhaps it flashed before you after some event occurred that made the eventuality either highly probable if not a foregone conclusion. In existential terms, reality is transcendent of form, transcendent of events and objects and all of duality. Reality, is neither predetermined nor random, the "past" and the "future" are both creations of mind, and the question of free-will is based on the misconception of the existential reality of the separate volitional person. Just a quick response about Ramana for I never had him down as being a mystic . I am not saying that what you spoke of tars him with the mystical brush but from what I have heard of some of his quotes, mainly through forums is that he said once upon a time that realisations can come about through efforts made in previous lives. (come to think about it, it might of been niz) not sure. But what I have noticed is that there isn't much talk about the type of things that I have spoke about before, has Ramana ever spoken about choosing your parents for example prior to incarnation .. You see this type of understandings are frequently missing from certain non duality peeps, because they don't have that mystical types of experience .. You see I am aware of several lifetimes had with my mum and understand the gravity of why soul groups incarnate often . It is a progression and a way of growing as a soul, now peeps don't have to agree with this at all, but if certain teachers speak about nothing is predetermined then they are off on the wrong foot . It's no coincidence certain peeps are in our lives .. Perhaps touching upon Ramana not knowing how much money one can earn in a lifetime then that is true form a position of not knowing isn't it . I understand this opens up a can of worms regarding many matters of knowing, not knowing, awareness, time and no time lol . |
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Post by sree on Nov 29, 2022 16:07:19 GMT -5
So, you are giving both a pass as spiritual teachers? One is driven by greed and the other by violence.
I have been harping about the connection between morality and spirituality in this forum always. Seems to me, right conduct doesn't matter much in new-age western spirituality that peeps expound here.
It's about living by example . It's the inner refection that mirrors outwards . Forget about Bruce Lee being able to kick all our arses at once, it's about his journey to get to that point. Wasn't his point about his craft more to do with fighting without fighting .
Or was that just a phrase used in his movie . He didn't say one thing and do another . It would be telling his followers not to eat junk food whilst being addicted to cake . Come on, tenka. The Bruce Lee we know is bigger than real life. This is why you kick the butts of peeps here. None of them can see the truth that it is not out there beyond thought.
Tony Montana also didn't say one thing and do another. Does that make him a spiritual teacher?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2022 17:46:49 GMT -5
What? You seemed to be agreeing with Enigma on that part, eh? " Moves" is a misleading word there, because suggests spatial movement. The movement, expansion is in terms of evolvement, aka value-fulfillment. EDIT: " as one" implies that " everything" (which implies acceptance that there are multiple individual identities) "moves" at the same "speed", which is not so. Identities "move" in terms of value-fulfillment at different "speeds". That's not what I meant, I meant to say one can't move separately. One can't decide separately. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 29, 2022 18:23:41 GMT -5
" Moves" is a misleading word there, because suggests spatial movement. The movement, expansion is in terms of evolvement, aka value-fulfillment. EDIT: " as one" implies that " everything" (which implies acceptance that there are multiple individual identities) "moves" at the same "speed", which is not so. Identities "move" in terms of value-fulfillment at different "speeds". That's not what I meant, I meant to say one can't move separately. One can't decide separately [1]. I understand that we see things differently in regards to this subject. Reality is organized in "gestalts of gestalts of ... gestalts" of consciousness ( as I understand it). The elements of a gestalt don't "move as one", by definition. [1] Every element of a gestalt of consciousness exercises its free-will, still the gestalt experiences and exercises its free-will too at its level. It is similar to how the body is composed of cells, both at consciousness level, and at physical level. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2022 18:36:11 GMT -5
That's not what I meant, I meant to say one can't move separately. One can't decide separately [1]. I understand that we see things differently in regards to this subject. Reality is organized in "gestalts of gestalts of ... gestalts" of consciousness ( as I understand it). The elements of a gestalt don't "move as one", by definition. [1] Every element of a gestalt of consciousness exercises its free-will, still the gestalt experiences and exercises its free-will too at its level. It is similar to how the body is composed of cells, both at consciousness level, and at physical level. Did you read this post ? You have the free-will to choose to accept that your beliefs are just beliefs, that they aren't truths; hence they can change. There are conscious beliefs (assumptions), and unconscious beliefs (truths for you), but all are "beliefs". This includes any experience you might have, physical or psychological. You don't have freewill because your focus of attention is preoccupied by your present moment of thought/perception so you can't choose between thoughts so you don't have freewill. |
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Post by laughter on Nov 29, 2022 19:48:27 GMT -5
First of all .. whoa! .. sorry to hear of that sort of rather dramatic disruption to your life dude. I've had similar experiences that have opened my mind beyond the conventional, which is why I'm sincerely left with no question as to your claim, and that completely counter to all my old conditioning btw (and apropo of almost nothing). Now then, the question becomes, how do we interpret those? "Everything moves as one" has the potential to be a pointer to the existential truth, but can we conclude from this, or even from these unusual experiences, that all of time already exists and is predetermined? Well, first of all, before we write anything illogical, lets consider how far the intellect can take us. Ramana once addressed this question with the answer along the lines of: "free will and destiny are both ever evident". In conventional, intellectual terms, we can see that we are all destined to die, but then, on the other hand, we don't know how many people we'll have sex with or how much money we'll make between now and then. We can see that the Sun is destined to blow up into a red giant and swallow up the Earth, but we don't know how many people will be alive on the Earth on that distant day or what form humanity will have taken assuming it survives until then and whether or not any of them will have been able to save themselves by escaping out into space.So, in the conventional, intellectual sense we see that the future is a blend of the known, and the unknown. It's pure speculation to discount the unknown. Rather, the closer the future becomes to being the present, the less unknowns there are, the further away it is, the more there are. So in terms of your vision of the white car, I'd speculate that perhaps it flashed before you after some event occurred that made the eventuality either highly probable if not a foregone conclusion. In existential terms, reality is transcendent of form, transcendent of events and objects and all of duality. Reality, is neither predetermined nor random, the "past" and the "future" are both creations of mind, and the question of free-will is based on the misconception of the existential reality of the separate volitional person. Just a quick response about Ramana for I never had him down as being a mystic . I am not saying that what you spoke of tars him with the mystical brush but from what I have heard of some of his quotes, mainly through forums is that he said once upon a time that realisations can come about through efforts made in previous lives. (come to think about it, it might of been niz) not sure. But what I have noticed is that there isn't much talk about the type of things that I have spoke about before, has Ramana ever spoken about choosing your parents for example prior to incarnation .. You see this type of understandings are frequently missing from certain non duality peeps, because they don't have that mystical types of experience .. You see I am aware of several lifetimes had with my mum and understand the gravity of why soul groups incarnate often . It is a progression and a way of growing as a soul, now peeps don't have to agree with this at all, but if certain teachers speak about nothing is predetermined then they are off on the wrong foot . It's no coincidence certain peeps are in our lives .. Perhaps touching upon Ramana not knowing how much money one can earn in a lifetime then that is true form a position of not knowing isn't it . I understand this opens up a can of worms regarding many matters of knowing, not knowing, awareness, time and no time lol . Well, I threw the quote out there just for grins, but I prefaced that paragraph by signaling that I was writing from and for a purely intellectual position. My reading of both Ramana and Niz is relatively casual, but I have read them addressing reincarnation. They acknowledge it from within their own cultural context, but remember, these guys were hardcore truth pointers, so they put it into perspective. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 29, 2022 21:05:13 GMT -5
I understand that we see things differently in regards to this subject. Reality is organized in "gestalts of gestalts of ... gestalts" of consciousness ( as I understand it). The elements of a gestalt don't "move as one", by definition. [1] Every element of a gestalt of consciousness exercises its free-will, still the gestalt experiences and exercises its free-will too at its level. It is similar to how the body is composed of cells, both at consciousness level, and at physical level. Did you read this post ? You don't have freewill because your focus of attention is preoccupied by your present moment of thought/perception so you can't choose between thoughts so you don't have freewill. I read it, and I disagree. I think you're wrong about that. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 29, 2022 21:15:30 GMT -5
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. 🦃 Yes, true gratitude is one of those special, emergent things. Another affirmation of SVP reality.
Are we a bunch of alcoholics here at AA talking about sobriety (TPTPAU)?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 29, 2022 21:30:15 GMT -5
Or... Life viewed from beyond the roller coaster can be realized. If you haven't seen, then you haven't. Good luck. How can I make a blind man to understand how the blue colour looks like? It's not possible, eh? Right, if there's no reference for the SEEING that is realization, then there's no reference for it. Doesn't mean realization is not immediately available. It might just mean the mind is still under the impression it is running the free willy show... coming to terms with its finiteness. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 29, 2022 21:32:00 GMT -5
Great AND whatever? Wobbling?  Interesting when a mind adheres to and prefers the nursery school interpretations of books like the Bible. But sure, inference requires a depth of insight and clarity.  Again, saw it a lot of the same pride in academia.    |
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.. sorry to hear of that sort of rather dramatic disruption to your life dude. 
