|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 11:59:00 GMT -5
You want to engage me in a battle on who reigns supreme on the study of classical Chinese? Ok, I will take you on. Don't cite authorities. As Krishnamurti said, kick gurus aside. Be a light to yourself. It's a battle between you and me. What is your meaning for the character 可 ?
I already knew when I wrote it that you wouldn't be able to take the constructive criticism and well-meaning guidance. I'm not interested in any battles with you. From my perspective, you've shown again and again that you are no match for me on a wide range of topics, if your interest should be in a battle of wits. Not to mention any dharma battles. Taking you on for another round would just being unnecessarily cruel. I have no interest in that. That doesn't help anyone. You see, there are many subjects you talk about with great conviction as if you actually knew something, but usually it turns out that your knowledge is limited to what anyone could find on wikipedia or via google. What a joke! Don't waste my time! Show me something real, something with substance. And forget about that Krishnamurti character, will you? Ok, my apologies for being trigger happy and quick on the draw. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 26, 2022 13:10:27 GMT -5
I don't know if you approve of Mitchell's translation of the Tao Te Ching. But it starts with " the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao." No, I don't. White men cannot grasp the Chinese mind. Even today we see China as the enemy. Below is my attempt to translate the Chinese script (Chapter One, first four verses) directly into English.
道可道，It seems like the way
非常道；It’s so much like the way
名可名，It seems like the named
非常名。It’s so much like the named.
Classical Chinese script is so compact and opaque. Just three characters in each verse; yet, they compel a lifetime of reflection.
This makes sense, you can see how other translators have drawn it out a little further. If you understand this then you should understand people here a little better, NDiverse. These are words for our dual world. They are pointing to something else, ND. What they are pointing to cannot be put into words, the [actual] Tao. What you continually want people to do, is put into words, the Tao. Everybody keeps telling you, not possible. You keep telling people, quit with the crazy word-salad talk. And everybody keeps saying, can't be done. ZD has expressed this pretty well, this ___, is the Tao. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 13:14:23 GMT -5
Take my word for what? I was just showing my ATTEMPT to translate the Chinese characters interpreted by Mitchell. Even among Chinese philosophers, there is no argument about who has got it right and who is mistaken and wrong. Those guys just share reflections of the obscure. It is unlike the western philosophical method which is instructive. Just look at Reefs knee-jerk response to my translation. He has all guns blazing to shoot me down. So unChinese. That your translation trumps Mitchell's. Though Reefs sees it differently. So you're an Eastern Westerner, an American with Chinese sensibilities. It's hard to fathom. Can't help but notice that you did what you criticized to Mitchell. You noticed correctly. I did shoot Mitchell down. He was no Chinaman and deserved to have his butt kicked by a yank. Westerners should stick to their own spiritual nonsense. Having said that, I do have an interest in Chinese philosophy. It began with Korean karate (Tae Kwon Do) when I was inspired by Mas Oyama and his Zen power. Long story short, I chucked the martial art on the way to the black belt when I noticed my battered knuckles on the piano keyboard. I switched to French ballet classes for physical fitness but my interest in the Zen aesthetic led me to the philosophy of China. Do you know the I Ching? It all begins there. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 13:31:41 GMT -5
No, I don't. White men cannot grasp the Chinese mind. Even today we see China as the enemy. Below is my attempt to translate the Chinese script (Chapter One, first four verses) directly into English.
道可道，It seems like the way
非常道；It’s so much like the way
名可名，It seems like the named
非常名。It’s so much like the named.
Classical Chinese script is so compact and opaque. Just three characters in each verse; yet, they compel a lifetime of reflection.
This makes sense, you can see how other translators have drawn it out a little further. If you understand this then you should understand people here a little better, NDiverse. These are words for our dual world. They are pointing to something else, ND. What they are pointing to cannot be put into words, the [actual] Tao. What you continually want people to do, is put into words, the Tao. Everybody keeps telling you, not possible. You keep telling people, quit with the crazy word-salad talk. And everybody keeps saying, can't be done. ZD has expressed this pretty well, this ___, is the Tao. What the devil is ZD? It is not in your list of acronyms. This forum is like that Hindu temple I saw in Mylapore. It was chock full of acronyms (i.e. dieties).
Ours is not a dual world. What is duality? Night and day? Man and woman? Me and you? Here and there? And you want to make it all non dual as in ND? We westerners are preternatural ideologues while the Chinese are pragmatists. Our heads are in the clouds while their feet are firmly on the ground where the tire meets the road.
Go to China and see if they are practicing the Tao Te Ching as you guys perceive it.
|
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Oct 26, 2022 13:55:21 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up! 道可道，非常道。--- What seems a truth, it isn't a truth. 名可名，非常名。--- What seems a person, it isn't a person. 无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything. For some other interpretations check this: linkEverybody understands through the filter of his own beliefs. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 14:50:30 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up! 道可道，非常道。--- What seems a truth, it isn't a truth. 名可名，非常名。--- What seems a person, it isn't a person. 无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything. For some other interpretations check this: linkEverybody understands through the filter of his own beliefs.
Is this your translation? Who did it? You substitute 道 (Tao/Way)) for truth? There is no equivalent for truth in Chinese. Truth is a western ideological concept with no equivalent in Chinese.
If each is an authority unto himself, and this is a western moral value, why rewrite this Chinese scripture to expound this ethic? This is worse than cultural appropriation or intellectual theft. It is rank propaganda.
|
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 15:10:16 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up! 道可道，非常道。--- What seems a truth, it isn't a truth. 名可名，非常名。--- What seems a person, it isn't a person. 无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything. For some other interpretations check this: linkEverybody understands through the filter of his own beliefs.
Is this your translation? Who did it? You substitute 道 (Tao/Way)) for truth? There is no equivalent for truth in Chinese. Truth is a western ideological concept with no equivalent in Chinese.
If each is an authority unto himself, and this is a western moral value, why rewrite this Chinese scripture to expound this ethic? This is worse than cultural appropriation or intellectual theft. It is rank propaganda.
Your verses:
无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything.
My translation: 無，名天地之始；unknown is the beginning of heaven and earth.
有，名萬物之母。known are the forms of the ten thousand things.
Compare the tone in the difference between your so-called translation and mine. Yours asserts a belief, a prescription for subversive action to cancel traditional religious beliefs. It is the battle cry of cultural revisionism.
|
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Oct 26, 2022 15:13:06 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this up! 道可道，非常道。--- What seems a truth, it isn't a truth. 名可名，非常名。--- What seems a person, it isn't a person. 无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything. For some other interpretations check this: linkEverybody understands through the filter of his own beliefs.
Is this your translation? Who did it? You substitute 道 (Tao/Way)) for truth? There is no equivalent for truth in Chinese. Truth is a western ideological concept with no equivalent in Chinese.
If each is an authority unto himself, and this is a western moral value, why rewrite this Chinese scripture to expound this ethic? This is worse than cultural appropriation or intellectual theft. It is rank propaganda.
You jumped to conclusions. Take it easy ... I wrote " truth", as in something that seams real, objective. That Chinese character has other uses than the Tao/Way. It isn't a matter of rewriting a "Chinese scripture", but of interpreting the meaning of a text. That's what that passage says: you create your reality. The text is a vehicle, a symbolical vehicle with multi-layer meanings, for everyone's level / ability. There is no right, nor wrong interpretation, but the one that makes sense to you in this moment, and this isn't only in the temporal sense. If it were that simple, there wouldn't be so many translations, interpretations, misunderstandings. Words are symbols. |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Oct 26, 2022 15:17:57 GMT -5
Is this your translation? Who did it? You substitute 道 (Tao/Way)) for truth? There is no equivalent for truth in Chinese. Truth is a western ideological concept with no equivalent in Chinese.
If each is an authority unto himself, and this is a western moral value, why rewrite this Chinese scripture to expound this ethic? This is worse than cultural appropriation or intellectual theft. It is rank propaganda.
Your verses:
无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything.
My translation: 無，名天地之始；unknown is the beginning of heaven and earth.
有，名萬物之母。known are the forms of the ten thousand things.
Compare the tone in the difference between your so-called translation and mine. Yours asserts a belief, a prescription for subversive action to cancel traditional religious beliefs. It is the battle cry of cultural revisionism.
That's your (level of) understanding, not "the" meaning of that text. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 15:21:29 GMT -5
Is this your translation? Who did it? You substitute 道 (Tao/Way)) for truth? There is no equivalent for truth in Chinese. Truth is a western ideological concept with no equivalent in Chinese.
If each is an authority unto himself, and this is a western moral value, why rewrite this Chinese scripture to expound this ethic? This is worse than cultural appropriation or intellectual theft. It is rank propaganda.
You jumped to conclusions. Take it easy ... I wrote " truth", as in something that seams real, objective. That Chinese character has other uses than the Tao/Way.
It isn't a matter of rewriting a "Chinese scripture", but of interpreting the meaning of a text. That's what that passage says: you create your reality. The text is a vehicle, a symbolical vehicle with multi-layer meanings, for everyone's level / ability. There is no right, nor wrong interpretation, but the one that makes sense to you in this moment, and this isn't only in the temporal sense. If it were that simple, there wouldn't be so many translations, interpretations, misunderstandings. Words are symbols. I disagree, but I am open to discussing this. However, "truth" is not part of the Chinese way of life. This doesn't mean that the Chinese don't value integrity, which is non-negotiable. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Oct 26, 2022 15:24:00 GMT -5
Your verses:
无，名天地之始；--- There is no other creator of your reality; 有，名万物之母。--- You are the creator of everything.
My translation: 無，名天地之始；unknown is the beginning of heaven and earth.
有，名萬物之母。known are the forms of the ten thousand things.
Compare the tone in the difference between your so-called translation and mine. Yours asserts a belief, a prescription for subversive action to cancel traditional religious beliefs. It is the battle cry of cultural revisionism.
That's your (level of) understanding, not "the" meaning of that text. You see how you are asserting authority over the meaning of the text? Who the hell are you? I am an American and I am supposed to be the one with the swagger. If you are not an American, I suggest you stand down. |
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Oct 26, 2022 15:34:02 GMT -5
That your translation trumps Mitchell's. Though Reefs sees it differently. So you're an Eastern Westerner, an American with Chinese sensibilities. It's hard to fathom. Can't help but notice that you did what you criticized to Mitchell. You noticed correctly. I did shoot Mitchell down. He was no Chinaman and deserved to have his butt kicked by a yank. Westerners should stick to their own spiritual nonsense. Having said that, I do have an interest in Chinese philosophy. It began with Korean karate (Tae Kwon Do) when I was inspired by Mas Oyama and his Zen power. Long story short, I chucked the martial art on the way to the black belt when I noticed my battered knuckles on the piano keyboard. I switched to French ballet classes for physical fitness but my interest in the Zen aesthetic led me to the philosophy of China. Do you know the I Ching? It all begins there. The honesty is refreshing. Zen has Chinese roots, some say Taoist roots. Not much concerned about Zen roots or philosophy. Sdp knows a lot about the I Ching. I'd be interested in hearing about it from both perspectives. Is it like the parrot fortune tellers from India? |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 26, 2022 16:15:53 GMT -5
This makes sense, you can see how other translators have drawn it out a little further. If you understand this then you should understand people here a little better, NDiverse. These are words for our dual world. They are pointing to something else, ND. What they are pointing to cannot be put into words, the [actual] Tao. What you continually want people to do, is put into words, the Tao. Everybody keeps telling you, not possible. You keep telling people, quit with the crazy word-salad talk. And everybody keeps saying, can't be done. ZD has expressed this pretty well, this ___, is the Tao. What the devil is ZD? It is not in your list of acronyms. This forum is like that Hindu temple I saw in Mylapore. It was chock full of acronyms (i.e. dieties). Ours is not a dual world. What is duality? Night and day? Man and woman? Me and you? Here and there? And you want to make it all non dual as in ND? We westerners are preternatural ideologues while the Chinese are pragmatists. Our heads are in the clouds while their feet are firmly on the ground where the tire meets the road. Go to China and see if they are practicing the Tao Te Ching as you guys perceive it.
ZD = zendancer He's the guy you called a scientist, I thought you'd remember, him. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 26, 2022 16:58:50 GMT -5
You noticed correctly. I did shoot Mitchell down. He was no Chinaman and deserved to have his butt kicked by a yank. Westerners should stick to their own spiritual nonsense. Having said that, I do have an interest in Chinese philosophy. It began with Korean karate (Tae Kwon Do) when I was inspired by Mas Oyama and his Zen power. Long story short, I chucked the martial art on the way to the black belt when I noticed my battered knuckles on the piano keyboard. I switched to French ballet classes for physical fitness but my interest in the Zen aesthetic led me to the philosophy of China. Do you know the I Ching? It all begins there. The honesty is refreshing. Zen has Chinese roots, some say Taoist roots. Not much concerned about Zen roots or philosophy. Sdp knows a lot about the I Ching. I'd be interested in hearing about it from both perspectives. Is it like the parrot fortune tellers from India? I had known about the I Ching for forever, known the name. But when I encountered it, it was always associated with divination, "fortunetelling", which I wasn't interested in. Then I encountered The Philosophy of the I Ching, Carol Anthony. She set me straight, browsing just a few minutes, I bought the book. So the I Ching is not about divination, I learned, it's about the present moment. This is where Jung derived synchronicity. Synchronicity is an acausal connection between two somethings. I had experienced synchronicities pretty regularly since being a teenager, but I didn't know until a lot later they were actually a thing, until then they were just my thing. Acausal means there isn't anything in the world to show how the two things should be connected, they're connected without being connected. The 64 hexagrams of the I Ching are the 64 possible combinations of yin, a broken line ___ ___ and yang, an unbroken line ______. They form trigrams, the 8 trigrams (I'll change my avatar to show them). So, 8 x 8 = 64, all possible combinations of 2 sets of the 8 trigrams. All possible combinations of 2 lines of the 8 trigrams form the 64 hexagrams. Very cool that the philosopher and mathematician, Leibniz, who developed calculus simultaneously but independently of Newton (that in an of itself is a synchronicity), studied the I Ching, which for him was a binary number system. But the 64 each have a description of a life-segment event, moving either positively or negatively, but only in a sense of polarity, not good or bad, basically passivity or activity, yin, yielding or yang-being-active. This is basically Gopal's rollercoaster. So yin isn't a bad thing and yang isn't a good thing, all life is just a movement. The original way to pick a certain number hexagram, in answer to a serious question (IOW, never done just for fun) was to cast and throw stalks of "grass/grain", sort of like wheat stalks cut about 6 inches long. You throw and gather in such a way that, randomly, you end up with a correspondence to one hexagram, which describes the situation of your question. (I've never done the stalks). Or you throw three coins, six times, to end up with your six lines of your hexagram. They are either all heads, all tails, two heads one tail, two tails one head (binary random choices). So how by doing a random thing to you end up with a hexagram significant to your question? That's where synchronicity comes in, it just happens, there isn't a causal link between throwing the coins and your situation/question. But basically you end up with a description of present events of your question, and the hexagram gives advice on how to proceed (basically, yes, proceed, or wait and see, or no, wtf are you doing?). It's actually amazing how your hexagram fits the circumstances... OK, one last thing. Originally, this guy Fu Hsi discovered by observation that the patterns on tortoise shells corresponded to events (I don't know how he picked a certain tortoise). So they stored up these tortoise shells to help figure out advise on a situation. Later, they decided it was easier to write down all the possible combinations on paper, and eliminate the tortoise shells. But this is the basis of the Chuang Tzu story of the fisherman who the Emperor tried to get to come to work for him. Chuang Tzu ended up with, I'd rather drag my tail through the mud (like a living tortoise...)... THE WAY OF CHUANG TZU (THOMAS MERTON) left Quote Chuang Tzu with his bamboo pole Was fishing in Pu river. The Prince of Chu Sent two vice-chancellors With a formal document: "We hereby appoint you Prime Minister." Chuang Tzu held his bamboo pole. Still watching Pu river, He said: "I am told there is a sacred tortoise,
Offered and canonized
Three thousand years ago,
Venerated by the prince,
Wrapped in silk,
In a precious shrine
On an altar
In the Temple."What do you think:
Is it better to give up one's life
And leave a sacred shell
As an object of cult
In a cloud of incense
Three thousand years,
Or better to live
As a plain turtle
Dragging its tail in the mud?""For the turtle," said the Vice-Chancellor,
"Better to live
And drag its tail in the mud!""Go home!" said Chuang Tzu.
"Leave me here
To drag my tail in the mud!" |
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Oct 26, 2022 17:42:45 GMT -5
The honesty is refreshing. Zen has Chinese roots, some say Taoist roots. Not much concerned about Zen roots or philosophy. Sdp knows a lot about the I Ching. I'd be interested in hearing about it from both perspectives. Is it like the parrot fortune tellers from India? I had known about the I Ching for forever, known the name. But when I encountered it, it was always associated with divination, "fortunetelling", which I wasn't interested in. Then I encountered The Philosophy of the I Ching, Carol Anthony. She set me straight, browsing just a few minutes, I bought the book. So the I Ching is not about divination, I learned, it's about the present moment. This is where Jung derived synchronicity. Synchronicity is an acausal connection between two somethings. I had experienced synchronicities pretty regularly since being a teenager, but I didn't know until a lot later they were actually a thing, until then they were just my thing. Acausal means there isn't anything in the world to show how the two things should be connected, they're connected without being connected. The 64 hexagrams of the I Ching are the 64 possible combinations of yin, a broken line ___ ___ and yang, an unbroken line ______. They form trigrams which then form the 8 hexagrams (I'll change my avatar to show them). So, 8 x 8 = 64, all possible combinations of the 8 hexagrams. Very cool that the philosopher and mathematician, Leibniz, who developed calculus simultaneously but independently of Newton (that in an of itself is a synchronicity), studied the I Ching, which for him was a binary number system. But the 64 each have a description of a life-segment event, moving either positively or negatively, but only in a sense of polarity, not good or bad, basically passivity or activity, yin, yielding or yang-being-active. This is basically Gopal's rollercoaster. So yin isn't a bad thing and yang isn't a good thing, all life is just a movement. The original way to pick a certain number hexagram, in answer to a serious question (IOW, never done just for fun) was to cast and throw stalks of "grass/grain", sort of like wheat stalks cut about 6 inches long. You throw and gather in such a way that, randomly, you end up with a correspondence to one hexagram, which describes the situation of your question. (I've never done the stalks). Or you throw three coins, six times, to end up with your six lines of your hexagram. They are either all heads, all tails, two heads one tail, two tails one head (binary random choices). So how by doing a random thing to you end up with a hexagram significant to your question? That's where synchronicity comes in, it just happens, there isn't a causal link between throwing the coins and your situation/question. But basically you end up with a description of present events of your question, and the hexagram gives advice on how to proceed (basically, yes, proceed, or wait and see, or no, wtf are you doing?). It's actually amazing how your hexagram fits the circumstances... OK, one last thing. Originally, this guy Fu Hsi discovered by observation that the patterns on tortoise shells corresponded to events (I don't know how he picked a certain tortoise). So they stored up these tortoise shells to help figure out advise on a situation. Later, they decided it was easier to write down all the possible combinations on paper, and eliminate the tortoise shells. But this is the basis of the Chuang Tzu story of the fisherman who the Emperor tried to get to come to work for him. Chuang Tzu ended up with, I'd rather drag my tail through the mud (like a living tortoise...)... THE WAY OF CHUANG TZU (THOMAS MERTON) left Quote Chuang Tzu with his bamboo pole Was fishing in Pu river. The Prince of Chu Sent two vice-chancellors With a formal document: "We hereby appoint you Prime Minister." Chuang Tzu held his bamboo pole. Still watching Pu river, He said: "I am told there is a sacred tortoise,
Offered and canonized
Three thousand years ago,
Venerated by the prince,
Wrapped in silk,
In a precious shrine
On an altar
In the Temple."What do you think:
Is it better to give up one's life
And leave a sacred shell
As an object of cult
In a cloud of incense
Three thousand years,
Or better to live
As a plain turtle
Dragging its tail in the mud?""For the turtle," said the Vice-Chancellor,
"Better to live
And drag its tail in the mud!""Go home!" said Chuang Tzu.
"Leave me here
To drag my tail in the mud!" Thanks for that, sdp. I appreciate it. Yes, synchronicity is definitely a pointer to something beyond mind. Reminds me of "spooky action at a distance." I've had a few interesting encounters with it. Your quoting Merton will undoubtedly draw sree's ire. You gotta love his bravado. "I'm an American, stand down!" Chuang Tzu would have had some fun with that. |
|
