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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2021 11:21:03 GMT -5
Is anybody suffering here? Most here can't even agree on a definition of what 'suffering' means. So from my perspective, that's the wrong question to ask. A much betterer question to ask would be: "Is anybody feeling invincible here?" or "When was the last time you felt invincible?" because that goes straight to the heart of the matter. Invincible implies an underlying conflict. What used to drive my actions and my thoughts, in a constant state of tension, was a sort of war with the world. Glad that's over.
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2021 11:25:34 GMT -5
Both Niz and diaper guy were quite comfortable speaking in terms of God when the dialog turned to it. Nothing wrong with speaking the language of whoever you might be with. A sage can talk to anybody. Well, there you have the acknowledgement you denied then. And while I see were zd is coming from with his typical straw Christian, I've found their thought on the issue to be quite varied, and sometimes, quite rich. Some Christians are quite open minded on the notion of personification, and not all "non-dualists" are uncomfortable with the notion of God.
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Post by laughter on Sept 17, 2021 11:28:56 GMT -5
Ramana Maharshi. (.. my wife coined the nickname ...)She seems as bad as my wifie lol. After a Tolle woo-woo 10 years ago I leveled with her that the old driving force that animated my career - the "war with the world" - was gone. Of course I shared the event with her, and I credit the shift in my perspective with saving the marriage. At some point she saw a picture of Ramana. ... (** muttley snicker **)
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Post by inavalan on Sept 17, 2021 12:47:16 GMT -5
Both Niz and diaper guy were quite comfortable speaking in terms of God when the dialog turned to it. Nothing wrong with speaking the language of whoever you might be with. A sage can talk to anybody. Actually is more like " talk at" ... From my experience, you can have an intuitive glimpse of knowledge and guidance from somebody's words that for them meant something completely unrelated. What you get is function of your level of evolvement, and your need to learn. Everything has a multi-layered symbolism you have to intuitively interpret. First time I learned about this was when from a discussion with my father I learned a quite important lesson. Later, mentioning it to him, he was surprised because he didn't mean what I understood. But what I understood then was quite valuable, and still stands true. Your only source of knowledge and guidance is your inner one, and only as much as you succeed to not distort it with your rationalizations.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 17, 2021 15:27:01 GMT -5
The Phantom Limb Syndrome - an example of painful unreliability of perception:
It is a truism that pain is perceived in the mind and central nervous system, rather than in the skin or muscles at the exact site of the problem. Conclusive proof of this is illustrated by the phenomenon of the "phantom limbs." The Phantom Limb Syndrome is a bizarre complication that sometimes occurs following surgical amputation. The patient feels sensation in a part of the body that no longer exists.
A surgeon described his patient's reaction after amputating his left leg at the knee: "I feel a painful tingling in my foot," the patient said. "It feels as if it's still there." He complained of calf muscles aching. This reaction is explained as a conditioned reflex based upon a mental image. The thought of his injured limb produced the pain. In return, the pain then reproduced an image of the missing part. Anticipation is a fundamental part of cognition. Anticipating depends upon previous experiences that are stored in the memory warehouse. As a result of expectation, pain and body image become linked together in an automatic reflex.
Treatment consists of teaching the patient self-hypnosis. He is taught to relinquish his unreal memory of the limb and to use self-imagery as an aid in adjusting to reality. Hypnosis is also used in such cases to train the patient to relax and comfortably accept the prophylactic replacement. Hypnosis also facilitates cooperation before surgery. It can be employed to promote better sleep, bed rest, and stimulate appetite and general recovery after surgery.
The sensitive physician knows you do not limit treatment merely to parts of the body, but attend to the emotions as well. Hypnotic suggestion is invaluable in altering the patient's outlook on his misfortune, encouraging cheerfulness and expectations of improvement.
--- "How to Hypnotize Yourself & Others" by Rachel Copelan
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Post by Reefs on Sept 17, 2021 23:03:18 GMT -5
Most here can't even agree on a definition of what 'suffering' means. So from my perspective, that's the wrong question to ask. A much betterer question to ask would be: "Is anybody feeling invincible here?" or "When was the last time you felt invincible?" because that goes straight to the heart of the matter. Invincible implies an underlying conflict. What used to drive my actions and my thoughts, in a constant state of tension, was a sort of war with the world. Glad that's over. I think you need to explain that to me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2021 0:44:50 GMT -5
She seems as bad as my wifie lol. After a Tolle woo-woo 10 years ago I leveled with her that the old driving force that animated my career - the "war with the world" - was gone. Of course I shared the event with her, and I credit the shift in my perspective with saving the marriage. At some point she saw a picture of Ramana. ... (** muttley snicker **)Did you follow tolly at some stage? It makes an interesting topic, 'relationships,' when one or neither of the two
are fully aware. I liken Marriage as fast-track Zen; if you can continually solve breakdowns in communication its richer that sitting in a Zen Group where most fear touch. Joshu Sasaki would say, " check out the Grandmother first before marrying... and chose a girl with Large nostrels. lol
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Post by laughter on Sept 18, 2021 6:00:01 GMT -5
Invincible implies an underlying conflict. What used to drive my actions and my thoughts, in a constant state of tension, was a sort of war with the world. Glad that's over. I think you need to explain that to me. If you're invincible you cannot be defeated, you cannot lose, that's the meaning of it. It of course implies the opposite, that if you're not invincible that you can be vanquished. Invincibility has no meaning free of the context of conflict.
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Post by laughter on Sept 18, 2021 6:28:02 GMT -5
After a Tolle woo-woo 10 years ago I leveled with her that the old driving force that animated my career - the "war with the world" - was gone. Of course I shared the event with her, and I credit the shift in my perspective with saving the marriage. At some point she saw a picture of Ramana. ... (** muttley snicker **)Did you follow tolly at some stage? It makes an interesting topic, 'relationships,' when one or neither of the two
are fully aware. I liken Marriage as fast-track Zen; if you can continually solve breakdowns in communication its richer that sitting in a Zen Group where most fear touch. Joshu Sasaki would say, " check out the Grandmother first before marrying... and chose a girl with Large nostrels. lol
Read Now back in '09. There's a long backstory, interesting narrative to the event, and it's been a long strange trip since. At the time the idea of enlightenment was something I was only vaguely aware of and conjured to my ignorant mind comic-book images of a guy wearing dastar floating in lotus. I was a secular humanist with a kindly condescending view of spirituality and a nostalgic but very distant relation to Christianity. Tolle tricks his reader into various meditative practices without telling them this is what he is doing. This turned my perspective inside-out and upside down - very suddenly and abruptly. I've written about it extensively here over the years.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 18, 2021 6:46:49 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with speaking the language of whoever you might be with. A sage can talk to anybody. Well, there you have the acknowledgement you denied then. And while I see were zd is coming from with his typical straw Christian, I've found their thought on the issue to be quite varied, and sometimes, quite rich. Some Christians are quite open minded on the notion of personification, and not all "non-dualists" are uncomfortable with the notion of God. Straw Christian? Haha! Maybe it appears that way because you don't live in the deep South. Yes, I've met a few Christians who've waded beyond the shallow end of the pool, but they're so few and far between where I live that only one in a thousand have any clue concerning what Jesus was pointing to. OTOH I once attended a Buddhist/Christian conference in Chicago with the Dalai Lama and dozens of theologians and ministers from all over the world (and Buddhists representing at least 6 different lineages), and I met some open-minded Christians there who weren't locked into a fundamentalist mindset. As you know, in 1998 I wrote a book specifically for Christians who might be open to a non-dual perspective on Christ, and I can count on one hand the number of people who had any interest in that sort of thing. Most readers became horrified when they realized that I was suggesting sages in other religions might be saying the same thing as Jesus from a different cultural perspective. FWIW, I can remember when my wife and I first read about Zen Masters and eastern sages 45 years ago. Our instant mutual response was something like, "OMG, these people are saying the same things that Jesus said!"
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Post by laughter on Sept 18, 2021 6:57:09 GMT -5
If you're invincible you cannot be defeated, you cannot lose, that's the meaning of it. It of course implies the opposite, that if you're not invincible that you can be vanquished. Invincibility has no meaning free of the context of conflict. History is replete with the stories of mere mortals who fancied themselves invincible.. only to face the cold hard reality of fragility Well, on the flip side of this coin I can kinda' relate to what reefs is getting at with the word. It's an absence of fear and dread, regardless of circumstance, and come what may.
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Post by laughter on Sept 18, 2021 7:07:04 GMT -5
Well, there you have the acknowledgement you denied then. And while I see were zd is coming from with his typical straw Christian, I've found their thought on the issue to be quite varied, and sometimes, quite rich. Some Christians are quite open minded on the notion of personification, and not all "non-dualists" are uncomfortable with the notion of God. Straw Christian? Haha! Maybe it appears that way because you don't live in the deep South. Yes, I've met a few Christians who've waded beyond the shallow end of the pool, but they're so few and far between where I live that only one in a thousand have any clue concerning what Jesus was pointing to. OTOH I once attended a Buddhist/Christian conference in Chicago with the Dalai Lama and dozens of theologians and ministers from all over the world (and Buddhists representing at least 6 different lineages), and I met some open-minded Christians there who weren't locked into a fundamentalist mindset. As you know, in 1998 I wrote a book specifically for Christians who might be open to a non-dual perspective on Christ, and I can count on one hand the number of people who had any interest in that sort of thing. Most readers became horrified when they realized that I was suggesting sages in other religions might be saying the same thing as Jesus from a different cultural perspective. FWIW, I can remember when my wife and I first read about Zen Masters and eastern sages 45 years ago. Our instant mutual response was something like, "OMG, these people are saying the same things that Jesus said!" Great stuff zd, it's always interesting to read about these interactions you've had. No way I'll ever come close to meeting a fraction of the folks you have at my rate. The discussions I've had spanned many decades - Christian family, friends and lovers. Probably about a dozen at most - prior to taking Sue to get baptized via RCIA. I'd inevitably hit them with the some fairly standard secular humanist objections: "why is God a man?", "how can a loving God be angry and vengeful?", ..etc. Sometimes their answers were open-minded and contemplative on this issue of personification, and some of the most radical views I've encountered were from Father Joe. And he slips them into Sunday homilies. I think it's easy to see the misconceptions of the devotionalists from the outside looking in, but for folks in that position, it's what's happening for them in prayer that is the most significant aspect of their practice and faith, rather than what they believe - despite what they might tell you.
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Post by Reefs on Sept 19, 2021 7:35:03 GMT -5
I think you need to explain that to me. If you're invincible you cannot be defeated, you cannot lose, that's the meaning of it. It of course implies the opposite, that if you're not invincible that you can be vanquished. Invincibility has no meaning free of the context of conflict. Okay, the dualistic feeling states argument. Fair enough. But what I am actually pointing to is total alignment, which isn't a dualistic feeling state. But if I had to explain it to someone else who doesn't know what total alignment is, the only option would be describing it with such words you find on the top half of the emotional scale.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 19, 2021 16:11:35 GMT -5
Straw Christian? Haha! Maybe it appears that way because you don't live in the deep South. Yes, I've met a few Christians who've waded beyond the shallow end of the pool, but they're so few and far between where I live that only one in a thousand have any clue concerning what Jesus was pointing to. OTOH I once attended a Buddhist/Christian conference in Chicago with the Dalai Lama and dozens of theologians and ministers from all over the world (and Buddhists representing at least 6 different lineages), and I met some open-minded Christians there who weren't locked into a fundamentalist mindset. As you know, in 1998 I wrote a book specifically for Christians who might be open to a non-dual perspective on Christ, and I can count on one hand the number of people who had any interest in that sort of thing. Most readers became horrified when they realized that I was suggesting sages in other religions might be saying the same thing as Jesus from a different cultural perspective. FWIW, I can remember when my wife and I first read about Zen Masters and eastern sages 45 years ago. Our instant mutual response was something like, "OMG, these people are saying the same things that Jesus said!" Great stuff zd, it's always interesting to read about these interactions you've had. No way I'll ever come close to meeting a fraction of the folks you have at my rate. The discussions I've had spanned many decades - Christian family, friends and lovers. Probably about a dozen at most - prior to taking Sue to get baptized via RCIA. I'd inevitably hit them with the some fairly standard secular humanist objections: "why is God a man?", "how can a loving God be angry and vengeful?", ..etc. Sometimes their answers were open-minded and contemplative on this issue of personification, and some of the most radical views I've encountered were from Father Joe. And he slips them into Sunday homilies. I think it's easy to see the misconceptions of the devotionalists from the outside looking in, but for folks in that position, it's what's happening for them in prayer that is the most significant aspect of their practice and faith, rather than what they believe - despite what they might tell you. I think what a lot of people might not realize it that for many Christians their world functions quite well because of A-H/LOA operating, which they attribute to God operating in their life.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 19, 2021 16:33:43 GMT -5
I think what a lot of people might not realize it that for many Christians their world functions quite well because of A-H/LOA operating, which they attribute to God operating in their life. This begs the question: would you rather be happy, or believe you know the truth?
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