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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 9, 2021 11:41:09 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain (suffering) is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck
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Post by inavalan on Sept 9, 2021 13:10:03 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck I don't know the context of the quote, but taking the quote at face value I strongly disagree with it. Pain is there to give you the feed back that you should change what you are thinking (firstly) and doing (secondly). I googled that author's name, and got a quote I like more: “ Life always gives us
exactly the teacher we need
at every moment.
This includes every mosquito,
every misfortune,
every red light,
every traffic jam,
every obnoxious supervisor (or employee),
every illness, every loss,
every moment of joy or depression,
every addiction,
every piece of garbage,
every breath.
Every moment is the guru.” ― Charlotte Joko Beck This meaning that everything we experience has a symbolism that if we interpret it we can learn from. Based on the quote you posted, I suspect that that author meant something else. That is a multi-layered symbolism from which everybody can and does understand according to their level of evolvement. From what I see happening to somebody I could learn a lesson that can be different or the same with what that person could learn from, or you could learn from. Seeing how a person interprets what is happening, in their lives or otherwhere, is a good indication of where they are on their path of evolvement. I strongly disagree with "no pain, no gain". It is misleading people into accepting pain, and into not seeing that what they're thinking, and doing isn't right for them. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 9, 2021 15:27:07 GMT -5
From the title of the thread by pain I think she meant (suffering).
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Post by inavalan on Sept 9, 2021 15:57:15 GMT -5
From the title of the thread by pain I think she meant (suffering).
I think "pain" is at the instinctual level, while "suffering" is at the emotional level. Surely, people give the words different meanings. I try to keep terms and ideas clear, to diminish confusion both in understanding and communication. Bottom line, I disagree with the concept of " Learning to be with pain (suffering)...". I think it is a bad idea / suggestion / teaching.For example: a man trying to hit a nail with a hammer hits his finger. This is perceived in various ways by those becoming aware of it. From all the possible interpretations I can think of, " Learning to be with pain (suffering)..." is probably the worst (I tried to find a word that offends nobody). I believe there are no valid examples in which "Learning to be with pain (suffering)..." isn't a bad idea / suggestion / teaching.Somebody's diagram:  For those who forgot: Nociception is the neural processes of encoding and processing noxious stimuli. Nociception refers to a signal arriving at the central nervous system as a result of the stimulation of specialised sensory receptors in the peripheral nervous system called nociceptors. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 9, 2021 16:50:21 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain (suffering) is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Sept 9, 2021 18:16:34 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain (suffering) is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. I hear in the quote that inner allowance of unavoidable pain is a practice best optimized in the heat of the moment. |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 9, 2021 18:58:58 GMT -5
That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. I hear in the quote that inner allowance of unavoidable pain is a practice best optimized in the heat of the moment. Your post reminded me of this:  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 20:27:03 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck sure, fine whatever. but pain hurts and chronic pain hurts and sucks.. but sure, enjoy it for some self introspection if you wish  and as homo sapiens I think we received far too many nerve endings.. there really is no need for a tooth to ache as bad as it does What a fabulous thread for ppl to help themselves. Bravo |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 20:51:23 GMT -5
From the title of the thread by pain I think she meant (suffering). Many years back I went into zazen retreat as pain were arising. Hardly able to support my-self let alone my family, I instantly became concerned that I had made ‘the wrong move’ but hung-in there, best I could. Having dropped into depression after criminal assault, I chose to ‘work’ on myself rather than trust the med prof drugs( which were making me sicker) and returned to meditation. My jaunt proved revealing as confronting illness brought up heaps of thought and my ego began to panic. Sitting on the spot for long periods of time certainly revealed a clear-picture of the internal pain inside but I was able to see How my ego was ‘creating’ greater pain over the top of reservoir of pain I had been living with, after criminal assault. Seeing how ‘mind overlays’ and fears of ‘messing-up’ within the Sangha intensified until I remembered the importance of surrender and instantly the the Greater part of my pain (restriction) vanished all of a sudden making sitting bearable and I was able to deal with my illness like never before. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 20:58:27 GMT -5
From the title of the thread by pain I think she meant (suffering). Have you never experienced pain brother? May I ask what is your understanding of emotional-contraction? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 21:04:41 GMT -5
That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. I hear in the quote that inner allowance of unavoidable pain is a practice best optimized in the heat of the moment. Having an intellectual attitude above pain can keep the person out of touch of their body, where pain is happening. My guess if we have no pains then their is nothing to work with If an enlightened body is important. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 9, 2021 23:39:35 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain (suffering) is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same;" .. same applies to pain/pleasure. There's a nobility in the character that forms by enduring pain, but that would elude anyone who deliberately cultivates pain for that purpose. Just as surely as that character can never form in anyone who makes a practice of the natural human impetus to avoid pain. Acceptance can be a means to an end, in relative terms, or it can point to the end of the entity who thinks they are accepting. In either event, it is in the end, where one will find the greatest significance. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 9, 2021 23:44:00 GMT -5
That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. I hear in the quote that inner allowance of unavoidable pain is a practice best optimized in the heat of the moment. Yes. And in a spiritual context, the most salient version of unavoidable pain is the loss of a loved one. |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 10, 2021 2:01:22 GMT -5
Billions of dollars are spent each year in the United States to push products we could live better without. lntelligence notwithstanding, we allow ourselves to be coerced into consuming products dumb animals would run from: sleep inducers, fat reducers, uppers, downers, pain killers for every part of the body. TV, in fact, can train the brain to anticipate pain even when you feel fine.
--- "How to Hypnotize Yourself and Others" by Rachel Copelan
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 7:25:11 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain (suffering) is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. Yes, this is what she's pointing to (not specifically physical pain). I think suffering serves a similar function of physical pain. Physical pain says there's a problem, find out what the problem is and fix it. Psychological suffering in a very similar way is pointing to a problem with self of self. Self IS the problem. That's why she says suffering is the heart of practice. If there is psychological suffering then one isn't done yet. If psychological suffering lasts more than about ten seconds (it can pop up if vasanas and samskaras have not been eliminated) then self (small s self) is a factor. Psychological suffering cannot exist in the present moment. All correct spiritual practices put one in the present moment. If you recognize suffering, if you practice, it puts you in the present moment where suffering can't-be. So suffering is a kind of short cut to getting to the present moment. Suffering is any kind of (psychological) dissatisfaction with what presently is. She goes into this in a full chapter of Ordinary Wonder, Zen Life & Practice (which were originally talks by her to her students, edited and formed into a new book by her daughter, Brenda Beck Hess. She doesn't use all the words I used above. |
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