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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 15, 2021 8:39:10 GMT -5
Nagarjuna the Buddhist philosopher was called the second Buddha. His coming to be was prophesied by Buddha. Concerning "truth" Nagarjuna taught: 1: It is; 2: It is not; 3: It neither is nor is not; 4: It both is and is not. Logic doesn't get one to truth. Seeming contradiction are not always contradictions. aeon.co/essays/the-logic-of-buddhist-philosophy-goes-beyond-simple-truthThat is a contradiction. You're mudding the water there. It wasn't about truth, nor logic.
what's right in front of our eyes right this moment
vs.
he thinks that I think that there's an objective physical world, and from my POV the idea of an objective physical world is just another idea worth throwing in the trashcan
Did you look at the Is Reality Real? video? Maybe that will help. That's pretty close to my view. I agree with zd, there is no contradiction. There is ~something~ ~out there~. Hoffman said the body evolved in such a way to protect itself. So primitive man evolved with the senses that allowed it to live and pass on it's genes, not necessarily to experience exactly whatever it is that's out there. Everything from ~outside~ entering is filtered and formed by the senses. laughter has said it most succinctly, reality is neither subjective nor objective. The world forms us (we are born ~out of~ the world) and we form the world (of experience), via our senses. Your view is too kind of "Bishop Berkeley idealistic" for me. plato.stanford.edu/entries/berkeley/
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 9:40:54 GMT -5
Is anybody suffering here?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 15, 2021 10:30:18 GMT -5
Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands? Yes. And the THIS pointer works on a couple of levels.
Everybody reading this right now imagine Elvis riding a pink elephant - go on… Now - BANG - wake up from that fantasy and look at your left hand - there it is, four fingers and a thumb.
There is a huge qualitative difference between these two states. 99.999% of people would acknowledge this difference. The tiny percentage who claim there isn’t a difference are either in denial or have a serious mental affliction - and I don’t say that lightly.
So we can wake up FROM a fantasy, daydream, narrative in the head, lost in memory, lost in imagination etc. TO the real-time present actuality of the moment - THIS - as it is. We all can discern that important distinction. This awakening to NOW or THIS or IS forms the basis of any form of spiritual breakthrough - this has been acknowledged throughout spiritual history.
But it goes deeper. Back to the left hand…
If we sit with the hand or the breath or a sound or a candle or whatever we can start to notice something remarkable.
With diligence it can be seen that the hand (or the breath or a sound) is not unchanging. Slowly (or rapidly) it is undergoing transformation - it is not static or fixed. Also if we look hard enough it can be discerned that it is not in any way separate, independent or inherently existing - it doesn’t exist on its own side - it has no own being.
It’s here where it can become clear that the forms that appear only arise contingently - and apparently. They are expressions of a more fundamental, underlying, primordial principle.
Now here is where contemplation, analysis and logic completely come to an end and a deep seeing can arise. This is where the realisation of the unborn nature of Reality can reveal itself.
This Unborn or Being or Nothingness or Dharmakaya or Tao or Spirit or God or Reality or Source is not other than the very THIS-ness of this moment. THIS is Reality. THIS is Source. THIS is the Unborn… as it is.
There’s ONLY THIS - however it appears.
That's so well-stated that, with your permission, I'd like to send it to some people who are serious seekers of the truth.
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Post by shadowplay on Sept 15, 2021 11:03:29 GMT -5
Yes. And the THIS pointer works on a couple of levels.
Everybody reading this right now imagine Elvis riding a pink elephant - go on… Now - BANG - wake up from that fantasy and look at your left hand - there it is, four fingers and a thumb.
There is a huge qualitative difference between these two states. 99.999% of people would acknowledge this difference. The tiny percentage who claim there isn’t a difference are either in denial or have a serious mental affliction - and I don’t say that lightly.
So we can wake up FROM a fantasy, daydream, narrative in the head, lost in memory, lost in imagination etc. TO the real-time present actuality of the moment - THIS - as it is. We all can discern that important distinction. This awakening to NOW or THIS or IS forms the basis of any form of spiritual breakthrough - this has been acknowledged throughout spiritual history.
But it goes deeper. Back to the left hand…
If we sit with the hand or the breath or a sound or a candle or whatever we can start to notice something remarkable.
With diligence it can be seen that the hand (or the breath or a sound) is not unchanging. Slowly (or rapidly) it is undergoing transformation - it is not static or fixed. Also if we look hard enough it can be discerned that it is not in any way separate, independent or inherently existing - it doesn’t exist on its own side - it has no own being.
It’s here where it can become clear that the forms that appear only arise contingently - and apparently. They are expressions of a more fundamental, underlying, primordial principle.
Now here is where contemplation, analysis and logic completely come to an end and a deep seeing can arise. This is where the realisation of the unborn nature of Reality can reveal itself.
This Unborn or Being or Nothingness or Dharmakaya or Tao or Spirit or God or Reality or Source is not other than the very THIS-ness of this moment. THIS is Reality. THIS is Source. THIS is the Unborn… as it is.
There’s ONLY THIS - however it appears.
That's so well-stated that, with your permission, I'd like to send it to some people who are serious seekers of the truth. Thanks ZD. And yes, of course.
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Post by laughter on Sept 15, 2021 11:36:10 GMT -5
Have you ever questioned whether or not there's something more to realize because of some of the more negative states you might fall into from time to time? I can ( very directly) relate to much of what you wrote, and have questioned this myself. I've also noticed other people writing about a similar state of mind - as in this same question, and some of them seem to me to have fixated on the possibility of some sort of perfected state despite having had significant existential realization. It’s a good question. All I can say is that not two is pretty decisive and fundamental. But the rest, the implications of it, how it appears in the world, what it all means etc. is a kind of an ongoing work in progress. So yes, there is always more to realise. As to the implication of a perfected human state - it almost seems a contradiction in terms. I would ask these people (or yourself, if you like) if they believe that there is an inherently existing owner of arising and passing negative states - or can it be seen that they are simply part of the passing landscape. Thanks for the frank, direct reply. Appreciated. This is one of those insights that I've seen people clearly demonstrate in the content and dynamic of a dialog, and then, yet, they still have this idea of one sort of perfection or another. Of course, I often find occasion to write to someone that they are perfect, exactly as they are.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 15, 2021 13:14:42 GMT -5
That is a contradiction. You're mudding the water there. It wasn't about truth, nor logic.
what's right in front of our eyes right this moment
vs.
he thinks that I think that there's an objective physical world, and from my POV the idea of an objective physical world is just another idea worth throwing in the trashcan
Did you look at the Is Reality Real? video? Maybe that will help. That's pretty close to my view. I agree with zd, there is no contradiction. There is ~something~ ~out there~. Hoffman said the body evolved in such a way to protect itself. So primitive man evolved with the senses that allowed it to live and pass on it's genes, not necessarily to experience exactly whatever it is that's out there. Everything from ~outside~ entering is filtered and formed by the senses. laughter has said it most succinctly, reality is neither subjective nor objective. The world forms us (we are born ~out of~ the world) and we form the world (of experience), via our senses. Your view is too kind of "Bishop Berkeley idealistic" for me. plato.stanford.edu/entries/berkeley/ I understand. I just disagree.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 15, 2021 13:45:17 GMT -5
It's not on purpose, it's just that I'm about the opposite of anally retentive as a person can be. "Here and now" is not a reference to an objective reality, that is your misinterpretation. Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands? It's nice that you guys agree with each other.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 15, 2021 13:47:24 GMT -5
You keep misspelling my screen name, I believe you do it on purpose. I dislike it. Regarding zendancer's beliefs ... This exchange started from "his seeing here and now" (paraphrased), which implies an objective reality, to which I expressed my disagreement. He won't accept my observation from principle, and will try to drown me with words and concepts that mostly mean nothing, at least to me. So as in the past we reached an impasse again, which we call impasse in communication, but it is something else. It's not on purpose, it's just that I'm about the opposite of anally retentive as a person can be. "Here and now" is not a reference to an objective reality, that is your misinterpretation. To both statements: thumb down.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 15, 2021 14:01:15 GMT -5
Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands? It's nice that you guys agree with each other. This "discussion" with you is like the sad "discussions" people have these days about covid, mandates, Afghan fiasco, immigration, climate change, race, history, rights, elections, ... Everybody sees only their truth. What does this mean? (rhetoric question) Surely, why argue with video-game characters? (another rhetoric question)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 15, 2021 20:38:36 GMT -5
Is anybody suffering here? Me. Not like in the past, not every day or even every week. Almost anybody still in a body can be made to suffer. Maybe only briefly, but yes. But sometimes suffering is compassion (look up the definition of the word). Why did Buddha teach? Look up Bodhisattva.
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Post by Reefs on Sept 15, 2021 21:42:18 GMT -5
Is anybody suffering here? Most here can't even agree on a definition of what 'suffering' means. So from my perspective, that's the wrong question to ask. A much betterer question to ask would be: "Is anybody feeling invincible here?" or "When was the last time you felt invincible?" because that goes straight to the heart of the matter.
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Post by Reefs on Sept 15, 2021 21:50:31 GMT -5
(** gopal snicker **)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 22:07:09 GMT -5
Is anybody suffering here? what is suffering other than some repetitive disturbing thought that you could end at any second? That’s one type of suffering ‘you’ no-longer grapple with. Nice. At another level, the globes Warlords are unable to end their mental-disease like you did and have to project their mental-illness into others in an effort to gain temporary relief.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 22:14:35 GMT -5
Is anybody suffering here? Me. Not like in the past, not every day or even every week. Almost anybody still in a body can be made to suffer. Maybe only briefly, but yes. But sometimes suffering is compassion (look up the definition of the word). Why did Buddha teach? Look up Bodhisattva. Me2 By investigating suffering of an emotional-nature we get to realise greater-life-appreciation, some becoming blissed in action. A compassionate approach toward ‘living’ certainly brings-on further suffering, the harden ended in heart wearing their armour proudly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 22:21:13 GMT -5
Can’t edit my so in last post. (On phone.) Chose to suffer or fill me in asap
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