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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 8:46:51 GMT -5
There's no doubt that effective medicine was suppressed for the greater part of last year, and those who were involved with that suppression have blood on their hands. Again, I say that as someone that isn't sorry if I don't have to hear Trump or look at Trump again. I could provide you endless links in support of Ivermectin and HCQ, but I already know you don't look at the links, so it would be a waste of energy. Take that stuff if you want, I'm not. I'll wait for one of the approved treatments. And I don't think there is any conclusive proof that either of those two drugs you mentioned is effective at preventing covid (and it seems likely that doctors would be advocating for it's use, if it worked). They are treatments more than prophylactics, though Ivermectin is actually being used successfully as prophylactic in some countries. Consider that an experimental vaccine was rushed through. I'm not saying I believe it's unsafe, just that it is new technology with no knowledge of long term outcomes. Yet doctors in USA and UK were denied access to tried and trusted medicines that have been used for years, and which are being used successfully in other countries to treat covid. In a normal situation, I could perhaps understand US and UK doctors would want to test Ivermectin and HCQ over a period of several months specifically for covid. But I'm sure, like me, you are told every day, relentlessly by the media, that this is a crisis situation...a disaster even. Given the context, there's no justifiable reason for not using those tried and trusted drugs, that have been recommended by doctors abroad. EXCEPT...and perhaps this is a key factor...the vaccine is considered an 'emergency' treatment. Now here in the UK (not sure about the US) emergency medicine cannot be pushed through if there are safe, existing, effective treatments already available. So in the UK at least, the vaccine was chosen as 'the solution'. Meanwhile, thousands have died in a harsh winter, with a crumbling national health service, because doctors have NO medicine to treat people with until they even get to the hospital. Both Ivermectin and HCQ can be used at an early stage (and are best used at an early stage) i.e before hospital. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 22, 2021 9:28:16 GMT -5
Take that stuff if you want, I'm not. I'll wait for one of the approved treatments. And I don't think there is any conclusive proof that either of those two drugs you mentioned is effective at preventing covid (and it seems likely that doctors would be advocating for it's use, if it worked). They are treatments more than prophylactics, though Ivermectin is actually being used successfully as prophylactic in some countries. Consider that an experimental vaccine was rushed through. I'm not saying I believe it's unsafe, just that it is new technology with no knowledge of long term outcomes. Yet doctors in USA and UK were denied access to tried and trusted medicines that have been used for years, and which are being used successfully in other countries to treat covid. In a normal situation, I could perhaps understand US and UK doctors would want to test Ivermectin and HCQ over a period of several months specifically for covid. But I'm sure, like me, you are told every day, relentlessly by the media, that this is a crisis situation...a disaster even. Given the context, there's no justifiable reason for not using those tried and trusted drugs, that have been recommended by doctors abroad. EXCEPT...and perhaps this is a key factor...the vaccine is considered an 'emergency' treatment. Now here in the UK (not sure about the US) emergency medicine cannot be pushed through if there are safe, existing, effective treatments already available. So in the UK at least, the vaccine was chosen as 'the solution'. Meanwhile, thousands have died in a harsh winter, with a crumbling national health service, because doctors have NO medicine to treat people with until they even get to the hospital. Both Ivermectin and HCQ can be used at an early stage (and are best used at an early stage) i.e before hospital. FWIW I heard some researchers discuss the "rushed" aspect of the RNA vaccines last night. They said that the research that led to the vaccines began 11 years ago, and had reached a point by 2020 that numerous different companies that had been working with the technology almost immediately realized that a vaccine could be developed based upon that past research. They agreed that in normal circumstances it might have taken an additional year of testing to get FDA approval, but they strongly refuted the idea that the development was rushed. The only thing that was speeded up was the emergency authorization by the FDA. They claimed that the decade of prior research was being ignored by people who thought that the production of the vaccines was somehow much faster than the development of other vaccines in the past. My understanding is that the only prophylactic treatment that has shown a high degree of efficacy in preventing the virus or reducing the effects of the virus is the monoclonal antibody co*ktail that Trump, Christie, and Guliani initially received and has now become administered more widely in nursing homes and elsewhere. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 9:53:26 GMT -5
They are treatments more than prophylactics, though Ivermectin is actually being used successfully as prophylactic in some countries. Consider that an experimental vaccine was rushed through. I'm not saying I believe it's unsafe, just that it is new technology with no knowledge of long term outcomes. Yet doctors in USA and UK were denied access to tried and trusted medicines that have been used for years, and which are being used successfully in other countries to treat covid. In a normal situation, I could perhaps understand US and UK doctors would want to test Ivermectin and HCQ over a period of several months specifically for covid. But I'm sure, like me, you are told every day, relentlessly by the media, that this is a crisis situation...a disaster even. Given the context, there's no justifiable reason for not using those tried and trusted drugs, that have been recommended by doctors abroad. EXCEPT...and perhaps this is a key factor...the vaccine is considered an 'emergency' treatment. Now here in the UK (not sure about the US) emergency medicine cannot be pushed through if there are safe, existing, effective treatments already available. So in the UK at least, the vaccine was chosen as 'the solution'. Meanwhile, thousands have died in a harsh winter, with a crumbling national health service, because doctors have NO medicine to treat people with until they even get to the hospital. Both Ivermectin and HCQ can be used at an early stage (and are best used at an early stage) i.e before hospital. HCQ has been effective for treating malaria for years.. but covid is a new phenomena, and there is no data (that I am aware of) which supports its's efficacy for treating this new novel virus. And when you say "denied access", for one I doubt that is true, but two, if they were denied then that would have occurred during the previous administration (which doesn't make sense since they were touting it's use). There's a link to well over a hundred studies on one of the previous pages here (but I know you won't look at it) I'm more clear about how the medicine bureaucracy works here than in America, but here, doctors have only been allowed to give 2 medicines, both at advanced stage (after arrival in hospital...hospital also the worst 'spread' environment). They have had no power or authority to administer Ivermectin or HCQ. I believe that in America, the drugs have to be 'FDA' approved? But I do know that a minority of doctors did administer Ivermectin last year in America, so I'm not clear about the relationship between the FDA and prescription of drugs. Take a look at this (if you can stand to click the link), this was last updated April 2020. This was KNOWN last April. www.drugs.com/ivermectin.htmlAnd yet, very few studies done outside of countries in which doctors are freer to act on their own knowledge and wisdom. There was expressed concern about the 'amount' of the drug that folks would have to take, but the successful studies are showing that a small, safe amount works well. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 9:59:06 GMT -5
They are treatments more than prophylactics, though Ivermectin is actually being used successfully as prophylactic in some countries. Consider that an experimental vaccine was rushed through. I'm not saying I believe it's unsafe, just that it is new technology with no knowledge of long term outcomes. Yet doctors in USA and UK were denied access to tried and trusted medicines that have been used for years, and which are being used successfully in other countries to treat covid. In a normal situation, I could perhaps understand US and UK doctors would want to test Ivermectin and HCQ over a period of several months specifically for covid. But I'm sure, like me, you are told every day, relentlessly by the media, that this is a crisis situation...a disaster even. Given the context, there's no justifiable reason for not using those tried and trusted drugs, that have been recommended by doctors abroad. EXCEPT...and perhaps this is a key factor...the vaccine is considered an 'emergency' treatment. Now here in the UK (not sure about the US) emergency medicine cannot be pushed through if there are safe, existing, effective treatments already available. So in the UK at least, the vaccine was chosen as 'the solution'. Meanwhile, thousands have died in a harsh winter, with a crumbling national health service, because doctors have NO medicine to treat people with until they even get to the hospital. Both Ivermectin and HCQ can be used at an early stage (and are best used at an early stage) i.e before hospital. FWIW I heard some researchers discuss the "rushed" aspect of the RNA vaccines last night. They said that the research that led to the vaccines began 11 years ago, and had reached a point by 2020 that numerous different companies that had been working with the technology almost immediately realized that a vaccine could be developed based upon that past research. They agreed that in normal circumstances it might have taken an additional year of testing to get FDA approval, but they strongly refuted the idea that the development was rushed. The only thing that was speeded up was the emergency authorization by the FDA. They claimed that the decade of prior research was being ignored by people who thought that the production of the vaccines was somehow much faster than the development of other vaccines in the past. My understanding is that the only prophylactic treatment that has shown a high degree of efficacy in preventing the virus or reducing the effects of the virus is the monoclonal antibody co*ktail that Trump, Christie, and Guliani initially received and has now become administered more widely in nursing homes and elsewhere. Perhaps you also didn't click on the link I gave to the studies....now I'm questioning whether I gave it, but pretty sure I did. There's loads of global studies showing that there are good prophylactics to be used. Here's just one that took me a couple of seconds to find. www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/aiims-study-covid-19/Otherwise, yes, I understand the gene therapy technology has been a long time in development, I think it was actually designed to be used for cancer treatment. What's new, in part, is that it is being used as 'prevention'. In the UK, it was considered 'emergency treatment', in the face of no other 'safe, existing, effective' medicine. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 10:01:36 GMT -5
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 10:05:06 GMT -5
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 10:06:12 GMT -5
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 10:10:20 GMT -5
 No prizes for guessing what India have been doing recently. Sorry guys, but neither the American or UK medical establishments are trustable. Too tied in with politics. Too much money in involved. Too many power dynamics. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 10:34:51 GMT -5
I also imagine that the news stations in the US are similar to the news stations in the UK....they mainly just spew out propaganda.
The only way to really find out what's going on in the world is to make the effort on the internet. There's a tremendous amount of crap of course, but at least there's a mixture of crap and truth.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 22, 2021 10:43:46 GMT -5
Is that true? You refuse to look at links that could provide facts that would challenge your perspective? Andrew has a valid reason for writing what he did, but his comment by itself is without a context. Which perspective would you like to challenge? Never mind, not worth it. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 22, 2021 11:49:13 GMT -5
I also imagine that the news stations in the US are similar to the news stations in the UK....they mainly just spew out propaganda. The only way to really find out what's going on in the world is to make the effort on the internet. There's a tremendous amount of crap of course, but at least there's a mixture of crap and truth. Yes, a lot of people have to make a decision now, like Neo in The Matrix. It's either the blue pill or the red pill. You wanna stay asleep or you wanna wake the hell up? I'm a bit surprised actually at how many here seem to show now interest in the big picture and just happily continue to take the blue pill as long as they get presented with a more or less conclusive story, even though The Matrix is showing some serious glitches now (see election) which seem to become more and more frequent (see inauguration). Some others actually want to know what's really going on and take the red pill. And their world is turned upside down. Some seem to have had quite a ride and can't take it anymore. And then they take the black pill and give up on humanity and check out. And while I'm very familiar with the blue pill and the red pill experiences, I never actually felt like taking the black pill. At the moment, I actually feel more like option #4: no pills no more.  |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 22, 2021 13:17:57 GMT -5
Never mind, not worth it. A lot of links people want me to read are from alternate news sites which I generally find to be crap and I'm not going to waste my time reading it. garbage in, garbage out. And if you think reading alternate opinions broadens your perspectives.. perhaps you should go bigger. do you think I believe msm stories verbatim? you read too much into things. and do you not understand the difficulties of language? and of course, then all of the alternate news aficionados have to chime in with their deep understandings of news and politics and of evil dudes up to no good.. because crazy loves company I guess ♫ "Try to see it my way, do I have to keep on talking 'til I can't go on...Think of what you're saying, you can get it wrong and still you think that it's alright..." ♬ You misunderstood. I have no interest in challenging you on anything. I've read your conversation with Laughter and Andrew and I just found your refusal to look at counter facts interesting in the context of what you said about the effectiveness of debunks. If you are happy with the blue pill narrative of current events, then so be it. I'm not. But I'm also not happy with the red pill narrative. And for the black pill narrative I have no use at all. I'm not into divide-and-conquer games either, where discussions with you seem to be going all the time. Once you paint the other side as crazy, you've basically closed the door to any meaningful discussion. That's why I said, not worth it. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 22, 2021 13:44:16 GMT -5
No prizes for guessing what India have been doing recently. Sorry guys, but neither the American or UK medical establishments are trustable. Too tied in with politics. Too much money in involved. Too many power dynamics. I'll leave this topic after this post, but no, India hasn't been doing recently what you imply. I just listened to a long discussion of what's happening in India, and it's quite a mystery. India is different than many other countries in many ways. Although they have been aggressively promoting mask wearing (PSA's, fines, etc), distancing, etc, scientists do not yet know for certain what's causing the precipitous drop in new cases. Some scientists speculate that a new variant of the virus that is less deadly but more contagious may be sweeping through the country. Other scientists have noted that the average age of the population is 25, so a majority of people that catch the virus there generally have mild cases and few noticeable symptoms. People in India are exposed to many more diseases than people in other countries and they have a wider immunity to new viruses than many populations. There are several other similar factors that may play a limited role, but the bottom line is that Indian doctors, themselves, have identified no basic issue that can explain what's going on. The precipitous increase in reported cases suddenly reversed, and cases are now dropping as fast as they were rising, and no one knows why. A certain percentage of the population received anti-malaria drugs prior to Covid, but that did not stop the exponential rise in cases. The anti-malaria drugs have several known bad side effects for certain people, but the drugs are routinely given in India because the risk of malaria in aggregate is greater than the risk of the side effects. Researchers apparently looked to see if there was a significant increase in the use of those drugs that could be correlated with this sudden downward trend, but they didn't find anything. The discussion involved many more issues than these, but the bottom line is that no one has a reasonable explanation for what's going on there at this point in time. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 22, 2021 14:42:26 GMT -5
No prizes for guessing what India have been doing recently. Sorry guys, but neither the American or UK medical establishments are trustable. Too tied in with politics. Too much money in involved. Too many power dynamics. A mate of mine a few months back sent me a big chart showing all the government figures that have a financial invested interest in the vaccine .. You can't make it up .. It's not a conspiracy it's a fact and can be researched easily enough . It's only ever been about money and control . The ONS stats still reflect the facts but it seems for the sheep majority they are all both dumb deaf and blind to the truth of it all . I guess, it's the way it is for a reason . Ian Duncan Smith the other day wrote a report on how the world health organisation hasn't even inspected wuhan's laboratory .. based upon rocking the boat on trade deals with china .. So hypocritical, I mean if it was anyone else there would be the wolves at their doors holding them responsible . Nothing has been said at all about it lol . |
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Post by andrew on Jan 22, 2021 14:46:39 GMT -5
No prizes for guessing what India have been doing recently. Sorry guys, but neither the American or UK medical establishments are trustable. Too tied in with politics. Too much money in involved. Too many power dynamics. I'll leave this topic after this post, but no, India hasn't been doing recently what you imply. I just listened to a long discussion of what's happening in India, and it's quite a mystery. India is different than many other countries in many ways. Although they have been aggressively promoting mask wearing (PSA's, fines, etc), distancing, etc, scientists do not yet know for certain what's causing the precipitous drop in new cases. Some scientists speculate that a new variant of the virus that is less deadly but more contagious may be sweeping through the country. Other scientists have noted that the average age of the population is 25, so a majority of people that catch the virus there generally have mild cases and few noticeable symptoms. People in India are exposed to many more diseases than people in other countries and they have a wider immunity to new viruses than many populations. There are several other similar factors that may play a limited role, but the bottom line is that Indian doctors, themselves, have identified no basic issue that can explain what's going on. The precipitous increase in reported cases suddenly reversed, and cases are now dropping as fast as they were rising, and no one knows why. A certain percentage of the population received anti-malaria drugs prior to Covid, but that did not stop the exponential rise in cases. The anti-malaria drugs have several known bad side effects for certain people, but the drugs are routinely given in India because the risk of malaria in aggregate is greater than the risk of the side effects. Researchers apparently looked to see if there was a significant increase in the use of those drugs that could be correlated with this sudden downward trend, but they didn't find anything. The discussion involved many more issues than these, but the bottom line is that no one has a reasonable explanation for what's going on there at this point in time. The only thing I have implied is that they have been treating their population with medicines that the US and the UK have not, which is the truth. Otherwise, yes, there are many factors at play, as there are in every society (which is why I would never take the position that ''lockdowns work'' or ''lockdowns don't work''), but by several standard metrics, India SHOULD be suffering. What they have in their 'favour' partly is a lower average life span and low obesity (I mean a 'favour' in terms of the statistics, we can't really say it's a 'good' thing that they die younger there typically). In Uttar Pradesh, things were bad. They began using ivermectin in August. Infections plummeted, then other states copied. Dr. Sharma has this to say, '' I’m a doctor in a poor state of India. We have unregulated medicine (officially Highly regulated, but hardly enforced). You can walk to a pharmacy, get a full kit of HCQ, Ivermectin etc with advice on when to see a doctor. Only the really sick or the rich see a doctor.'' At this point, many are receiving a blister pack that contains Ivermectin, azithromycin, and zinc. It costs $2. www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2020/may/29/icmr-writes-to-who-disagreeing-with-hcq-assessment-officials-say-international-trial-dosage-four-ti-2149702.htmlAgain, if your country is like mine, NOTHING happens until the patient gets into hospital. It's a terrible and deeply corrupt approach. |
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