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Post by Peter on Jan 19, 2021 5:31:18 GMT -5
I'm grappling this week with the appearance that a large number of republicans in the US have formed themselves into an alternative reality in which they believe they are in the majority and the only possible way for the democrats to have won the election is for nefarious forces to have rigged it. And presumably (because the democrats won the popular vote also in 2016) that the previous election was also rigged, but 'They' just failed to rig it sufficiently in key states.
This is not particularly a spiritual matter, but it has a parallel. We're all here (I hope) attempting to see What Is. What is true. What we have here is an opportunity to examine at a macro level, the motivations and mechanisms for a denial of reality (small r). The filters of selecting things we like and discarding the things we don't like until a world view is formed.
Well I guess people have always believed what they want to believe and/or take on the beliefs handed to them by their parents. And then taken that view, identified the opposition as 'Other' and 'Evil' and kill them for it. But when it was just in the realm of religion it was one unprovable belief against another unprovable belief. In the political sphere though, we're saying there are facts and that they can be proven.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2021 8:01:07 GMT -5
Well Churchill said "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - and that was before the internet and 24 hour cable!  OTOH, thanks to the internet and social media, fake news gets debunked almost in real-time these days. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jan 19, 2021 9:50:46 GMT -5
You are talking about a mindset, vasanas. They are hard to let go. You feel as if you're protecting some sacred idea. Been there.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2021 10:16:01 GMT -5
OTOH, thanks to the internet and social media, fake news gets debunked almost in real-time these days. Debunks are not as effective as you imply. You have to be willing (or something) to accept that one of your views was based on an inaccuracy. Certainly. But I was thinking more about situations with video evidence, which are usually pretty straight forward once you've seen ALL the footage. In the news you usually only see a short clip from only one angle and also heavily edited because they tend to use it to support or establish a certain narrative. So, very often when you get a chance to actually look at the raw footage, and from multiple angles because someone posted it somewhere online, the story told in the news falls apart quickly. That's where social media can be very helpful in terms of WIBIGO. Now compare that to Churchill's times, where no one was able to get an event on video or even a photo of an event, let alone distribute it independently from major news agencies directly to the people. We are living in revolutionary times. A dude with a cellphone at the right place at the right time and internet access can be more powerful than all the news agencies of a country combined. But only few actually realize that. Because they are not even aware of all the awesome tools in their hands that could help them cut thru the matrix and the fog of the current info war. So I think it's really down to the individual. People need to get pro-active. Even professional fact checkers regularly get things wrong. If people got fooled in Churchill's times by fake news, you can't really blame them. They had next to no chance to verify anything in the news by themselves. Our situation today is quite different. So if people with internet access get fooled by fake news these days, then I'd say, that's on them, mostly. Because the correct information is usually available, and for free. That's how times have changed. So that quote will remain true as long as people remain complacent, passive news consumers instead of alert, pro-active news seekers. But that's an individual choice again because it does take time and effort. But it is an option that we haven't had in the past, so why not use it to the max for the sake of WIBIGO? |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 19, 2021 10:22:23 GMT -5
Yes, there was funny little short science fiction story many years ago. Maybe written by Frederick Brown. A guy goes into a patent office carrying a small briefcase. He tells the patent agent that he wants to patent an anti-gravity device. The agent says, "Anti-gravity is not possible because it would violate laws of physics." The guy reaches over and pushes a button on his briefcase, and the briefcase immediately jumps up into mid-air and hovers there motionless. The agent looks at the briefcase and says, "Anti-gravity is not possible because it would violate laws of physics. Your patent is denied." haha.
Sometimes seeing is NOT believing. Ideas are often more powerful than direct experience.
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2021 10:34:42 GMT -5
I would prefer that the term "fake news" be retired. Whatever that term had hoped to represent has been mangled beyond recognition by overuse and by being misapplied. Well then lets call it inaccurate news then. The term fake news usually refers to inaccurate news with an agenda attached to it. The mechanics and implications remain mostly the same though. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2021 10:36:02 GMT -5
Yes, there was funny little short science fiction story many years ago. Maybe written by Frederick Brown. A guy goes into a patent office carrying a small briefcase. He tells the patent agent that he wants to patent an anti-gravity device. The agent says, "Anti-gravity is not possible because it would violate laws of physics." The guy reaches over and pushes a button on his briefcase, and the briefcase immediately jumps up into mid-air and hovers there motionless. The agent looks at the briefcase and says, "Anti-gravity is not possible because it would violate laws of physics. Your patent is denied." haha. Sometimes seeing is NOT believing. Ideas are often more powerful than direct experience. Perfect!  |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 19, 2021 10:54:30 GMT -5
Well then lets call it inaccurate news then. The term fake news usually refers to inaccurate news with an agenda attached to it. The mechanics and implications remain mostly the same though. Sure, that's fine. But in my case I have a coil which needs to relax first. If nothing else helps, there's always ATA-T, ye know.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 11:52:16 GMT -5
I'm grappling this week with the appearance that a large number of republicans in the US have formed themselves into an alternative reality in which they believe they are in the majority and the only possible way for the democrats to have won the election is for nefarious forces to have rigged it. And presumably (because the democrats won the popular vote also in 2016) that the previous election was also rigged, but 'They' just failed to rig it sufficiently in key states. This is not particularly a spiritual matter, but it has a parallel. We're all here (I hope) attempting to see What Is. What is true. What we have here is an opportunity to examine at a macro level, the motivations and mechanisms for a denial of reality (small r). The filters of selecting things we like and discarding the things we don't like until a world view is formed. Well I guess people have always believed what they want to believe and/or take on the beliefs handed to them by their parents. And then taken that view, identified the opposition as 'Other' and 'Evil' and kill them for it. But when it was just in the realm of religion it was one unprovable belief against another unprovable belief. In the political sphere though, we're saying there are facts and that they can be proven. Yeah, it's disturbing. I've been chewing on it too. I've defended Trump at times from what I saw as unfair, dishonest attacks. But the behavior since the election is horrible. It looks like narcissistic personality disorder, which perhaps is just a more extreme "air tight" version of something that lives in most of us. But I think he lives in la-la land, and worse, he attacks people who act with integrity, if it conflicts with his false ego. (See: Mike Pence certifying the results, Bill Barr telling him there was no big fraud, and many others.) I worry about the damage it's doing. It's important to note though, that while a lot of it is his fault, he also could not do anything if the collective were not already dysfunctional. "Leaders" have to fit with the crowd. I was thinking about this when I posted some Nisargadatta quotes the other day, about what it is we could actually do to "help". spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5657/niz-quotes-on-helping-worldI see similar problems on both political sides. So I don't think this should be used for more partisan "us vs them". The riots in USA last summer for example were also fueled by some toxic fantasies from the political left. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 13:58:46 GMT -5
[...] It's important to note though, that while a lot of it is his fault, he also could not do anything if the collective were not already dysfunctional. "Leaders" have to fit with the crowd. I was thinking about this when I posted some Nisargadatta quotes the other day, about what it is we could actually do to "help". spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5657/niz-quotes-on-helping-world[...] except you've actually described a 'follower' there Right. There are many dysfunctional stories in human history, and sometimes a particular person is viewed as a prime cause and gets over-emphasized. They're more like a catalyst, accelerant, or a spark in a room full of gas. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 19, 2021 15:34:31 GMT -5
I'm grappling this week with the appearance that a large number of republicans in the US have formed themselves into an alternative reality in which they believe they are in the majority and the only possible way for the democrats to have won the election is for nefarious forces to have rigged it. And presumably (because the democrats won the popular vote also in 2016) that the previous election was also rigged, but 'They' just failed to rig it sufficiently in key states. This is not particularly a spiritual matter, but it has a parallel. We're all here (I hope) attempting to see What Is. What is true. What we have here is an opportunity to examine at a macro level, the motivations and mechanisms for a denial of reality (small r). The filters of selecting things we like and discarding the things we don't like until a world view is formed. Well I guess people have always believed what they want to believe and/or take on the beliefs handed to them by their parents. And then taken that view, identified the opposition as 'Other' and 'Evil' and kill them for it. But when it was just in the realm of religion it was one unprovable belief against another unprovable belief. In the political sphere though, we're saying there are facts and that they can be proven. When the votes are ~75 millions to ~75 millions, it doesn't mean that somebody really won. In such situation it is normal to feel frustrated and wonder. It is what happened 4 years ago, when conspiracy theories about illegal interference were promoted, and which speared an investigation illegally justified (maybe even honestly) by the top of the fbi, etc., and which was started by the loser candidate, to distract attention from her server scandal. The hateful rhetoric pushed by the 2016 losing side deepened the divide, so it is at least hypocritical to accuse the losers of 2020 for their suspicions and frustrations. The main difference between left and right is that the left (50% of US voters) brings together the people who feel the need to be taken care of by somebody else, like the government, because they don't trust themselves, while the people of the right (50% of US voters) believe in themselves and the ability to determine their own destinies. It is the antithesis between fear and confidence. Unfortunately, the contribution of the main stream media and social media, not only over the last four years, was nefarious to the political discourse, and not in US only. They succeeded in exacerbating some negative potentials of humans' character. All this is originated in fears, and fears are caused by limiting beliefs. The only cure to this, which will automatically happen, is that those fear causing limiting beliefs will be replaced by other beliefs, because at some point the individual can't bear living in more and more fear, anger, hate, and will unconsciously cling to new beliefs that will root out the fear causing limiting beliefs. I believe that human society will see a turn toward faith (religion) that brings together the need of being taken care of, protected by an all powerful entity, while promoting basic moral values. Some of us won't live to see that. But it will be automatic (or higher power-made), not man-made. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 19, 2021 15:54:13 GMT -5
Debunks are not as effective as you imply. You have to be willing (or something) to accept that one of your views was based on an inaccuracy. Certainly. But I was thinking more about situations with video evidence, which are usually pretty straight forward once you've seen ALL the footage. In the news you usually only see a short clip from only one angle and also heavily edited because they tend to use it to support or establish a certain narrative. So, very often when you get a chance to actually look at the raw footage, and from multiple angles because someone posted it somewhere online, the story told in the news falls apart quickly. That's where social media can be very helpful in terms of WIBIGO. Now compare that to Churchill's times, where no one was able to get an event on video or even a photo of an event, let alone distribute it independently from major news agencies directly to the people. We are living in revolutionary times. A dude with a cellphone at the right place at the right time and internet access can be more powerful than all the news agencies of a country combined. But only few actually realize that. Because they are not even aware of all the awesome tools in their hands that could help them cut thru the matrix and the fog of the current info war. So I think it's really down to the individual. People need to get pro-active. Even professional fact checkers regularly get things wrong. If people got fooled in Churchill's times by fake news, you can't really blame them. They had next to no chance to verify anything in the news by themselves. Our situation today is quite different. So if people with internet access get fooled by fake news these days, then I'd say, that's on them, mostly. Because the correct information is usually available, and for free. That's how times have changed. So that quote will remain true as long as people remain complacent, passive news consumers instead of alert, pro-active news seekers. But that's an individual choice again because it does take time and effort. But it is an option that we haven't had in the past, so why not use it to the max for the sake of WIBIGO? would be true if social media companies wouldn't filter the information according to their own biases, which isn't the case anymore. They decide what they allow and what they don't. I understand the will to fight lies and manipulation, but what they do is the same thing, and inherently they don't, and can't know better, and shouldn't have the right to do that when they are monopolies. Solution? Break the social media and other media monopolies into smaller pieces, as they did it to ATT, and others! And, surely, hold accountable the individuals who spread misinformation, intentionally and not! |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 19, 2021 15:57:18 GMT -5
Yes, there was funny little short science fiction story many years ago. Maybe written by Frederick Brown. A guy goes into a patent office carrying a small briefcase. He tells the patent agent that he wants to patent an anti-gravity device. The agent says, "Anti-gravity is not possible because it would violate laws of physics." The guy reaches over and pushes a button on his briefcase, and the briefcase immediately jumps up into mid-air and hovers there motionless. The agent looks at the briefcase and says, "Anti-gravity is not possible because it would violate laws of physics. Your patent is denied." haha. Sometimes seeing is NOT believing. Ideas are often more powerful than direct experience. This reminds of Einstein having worked in a patent office .. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 19, 2021 15:58:58 GMT -5
Well then lets call it inaccurate news then. The term fake news usually refers to inaccurate news with an agenda attached to it. The mechanics and implications remain mostly the same though. Sure, that's fine. But in my case I have a coil which needs to relax first. May I suggest to give less attention to the news? What you need to know will reach you anyway. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 19, 2021 16:03:44 GMT -5
I'm grappling this week with the appearance that a large number of republicans in the US have formed themselves into an alternative reality in which they believe they are in the majority and the only possible way for the democrats to have won the election is for nefarious forces to have rigged it. And presumably (because the democrats won the popular vote also in 2016) that the previous election was also rigged, but 'They' just failed to rig it sufficiently in key states. This is not particularly a spiritual matter, but it has a parallel. We're all here (I hope) attempting to see What Is. What is true. What we have here is an opportunity to examine at a macro level, the motivations and mechanisms for a denial of reality (small r). The filters of selecting things we like and discarding the things we don't like until a world view is formed. Well I guess people have always believed what they want to believe and/or take on the beliefs handed to them by their parents. And then taken that view, identified the opposition as 'Other' and 'Evil' and kill them for it. But when it was just in the realm of religion it was one unprovable belief against another unprovable belief. In the political sphere though, we're saying there are facts and that they can be proven. Yeah, it's disturbing. I've been chewing on it too. I've defended Trump at times from what I saw as unfair, dishonest attacks. But the behavior since the election is horrible. It looks like narcissistic personality disorder, which perhaps is just a more extreme "air tight" version of something that lives in most of us. But I think he lives in la-la land, and worse, he attacks people who act with integrity, if it conflicts with his false ego. (See: Mike Pence certifying the results, Bill Barr telling him there was no big fraud, and many others.) I worry about the damage it's doing. It's important to note though, that while a lot of it is his fault, he also could not do anything if the collective were not already dysfunctional. "Leaders" have to fit with the crowd. I was thinking about this when I posted some Nisargadatta quotes the other day, about what it is we could actually do to "help". spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5657/niz-quotes-on-helping-worldI see similar problems on both political sides. So I don't think this should be used for more partisan "us vs them". The riots in USA last summer for example were also fueled by some toxic fantasies from the political left.
Whatever happens right now, is the action of the left to push Trump out of the political discourse, because he is the only current viable republican force. It is a hit job. |
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