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Post by Reefs on Oct 3, 2020 4:42:53 GMT -5
I wasn't really sure what you were referring to. Laughter seems to be assuming that you were referring to the 'fine people hoax' which has been thoroughly debunked by now. So just in case and for the sake of WIBIGO, I posted that link to an official fact checker website. Tricky stuff, indeed. Right, because the context was "nazi's", so I associated it with Charlottesville. In terms of what he was actually saying, my thoughts are this: the Confederacy's cause was historically unjust, but they are the only American's to have ever lost a war on their own ground, so the issue of the statues of Lee et al wasn't one I found to be all that simple. I can understand the strong feelings on both sides, but, without a cultural stake, I didn't take one. Ken Burns did a widely watched and emotionally engaging piece on the Civil War back in the early 90's, and by today's standards it would be cancelled. Back then it was considered a rather cathartic exploration relevant to how America stitched itself back together after the most brutal conflict we ever fought. IOW, it's this need for a collective identity based on a common history which causes all this trouble again. People refer back to times they've never even experienced and even quarrel about what happened and didn't happen and what's the right way to look at it. What else could go wrong? Our values keep changing. Our perspectives keep changing. What was perfectly acceptable 100 years ago and no one would have even given a thought to, can create outrage today. The opposite is also true, what created outrage 100 years ago, is perfectly acceptable today and no would give it any thought. That's how, I think, hi story (our own collective stories, really) keeps changing. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 3, 2020 6:39:45 GMT -5
Watched it live. Totally agree. DJT calling JB a ‘clown’ and telling him to ‘shut up’ on live TV was definitely a new low. And this barrage of lies about HB, I don't know what to say. I hope the fact checkers already got to work. It's going to rain pinocchios on DJT for that alone. Luckily JB had all the facts together. And CW constantly trying to debate JB instead of just moderating made it seem as if JB had to debate both DJT and CW. Very unfair. I hope there won't be another debate.   My reply was supposed to indicate I got your (Reefs) sarcasm. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 3, 2020 6:42:15 GMT -5
Interesting because my perception was different. CW was very bias in his moderating and did a terrible job. I actually felt sorry at times for Trump. The whole thing was an embarrasment. Having spent months looking at all sides of the narrative, on and away from mainstream, I honestly despair, I see a far right and an intolerant far left, I trust that the universe indeed has a plan and knows what she’s doing. It is a massive call for people to look at their unconscious programmes though. Trump is a symptom and a reflection of the collective and to see such hatred against him shows me that we are a long way off on our journey to awakening. On one level, I think all of this can be a great time of awakening where old systems can collapse and make way for the New Earth. The more divide and hate I see, the more I feel we are indeed being called to raise our vibration and look within. I feel this so powerfully at the moment. Abe Hicks and other teachers are really showing us how to make change and it starts with each individual... the ripple effect. That was 100% sarcasm what I wrote there.  What happened there on (inter)national TV that night was a pretty good representation of what has happened on this forum in the past. This seemed all too familiar, the double-binds ("will you declare here and now that you once and for all will stop beating your wife?"), the constant talking past each other, the tag-teaming, the giraffes, the he-said-she-said... That's why I had a totally different view on what happened there compared to Sifty. I just tried to express it in a less confrontational way, so I chose sarcasm. I'm surprised no one really noticed. Good time to finally clear that up, haha. I thought it was pretty obvious... |
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Post by esponja on Oct 3, 2020 8:51:44 GMT -5
Interesting because my perception was different. CW was very bias in his moderating and did a terrible job. I actually felt sorry at times for Trump. The whole thing was an embarrasment. Having spent months looking at all sides of the narrative, on and away from mainstream, I honestly despair, I see a far right and an intolerant far left, I trust that the universe indeed has a plan and knows what she’s doing. It is a massive call for people to look at their unconscious programmes though. Trump is a symptom and a reflection of the collective and to see such hatred against him shows me that we are a long way off on our journey to awakening. On one level, I think all of this can be a great time of awakening where old systems can collapse and make way for the New Earth. The more divide and hate I see, the more I feel we are indeed being called to raise our vibration and look within. I feel this so powerfully at the moment. Abe Hicks and other teachers are really showing us how to make change and it starts with each individual... the ripple effect. That was 100% sarcasm what I wrote there. What happened there on (inter)national TV that night was a pretty good representation of what has happened on this forum in the past. This seemed all too familiar, the double-binds ("will you declare here and now that you once and for all will stop beating your wife?"), the constant talking past each other, the tag-teaming, the giraffes, the he-said-she-said... That's why I had a totally different view on what happened there compared to Sifty. I just tried to express it in a less confrontational way, so I chose sarcasm. I'm surprised no one really noticed. Good time to finally clear that up, haha. Well, you probably know the saying, people will get the rulers they deserve. And from a LOA perspective, that makes sense. And you know what Abe say, those people (politicians) don't really matter. They just want you to think that they matter (out of pure self interest). And your (physical) votes don't really matter either. What really matters is your individual vibrational votes that you are sending out every day, when you see violence in the streets and don't like it and wish for it to stop, when you feel embarrassed about a ridiculously biased moderator in a presidential debate and wish for some true fair play, when political candidates get caught in their own lies again and again and you envision a more honest political culture, when you see one and the same fake story promoted on all channels all day everyday and you are longing for more diversity and objectivity, and so on... And that's actually been happening for decades and been gaining enormous momentum in the past few years. So what some see as chaotic times right now, where it's hard to see any direction, I see it as a time where an old system that has been more and more out of sync with the collective is slowly replaced by a new system that is more in sync with the collective. So we are in the twilight zone right now, in the middle of the tunnel. In some places, you can see already the light, in some other places there's still no light in sight. But the overall change of direction, globally, on the non-physical level, I think is a done deal.It's done. It just has to break thru into the physical. And that's where the collective path of least resistance comes into play. In some places around the world it's easier and the transition smoother, in some places it's more difficult and a much rougher ride. But no matter what the collective chooses, you as the individual always have your say in what's manifesting for you individually. The way it goes for the collective doesn't mean that's the way it goes for you as an individual. There are always individual people who thrive in times the collective would call bad times, and there are always individual people who suffer in times the collective would call good times. You see, you called Williamson asleep, which probably wouldn't be all too hard to prove, but regardless, we can't deny the fact that she throws out a lot of totally out of the box ideas, and that's actually really good in helping in this transition, no matter if she actually realizes her role or not. I think what would make the biggest difference is if people would just realize that everyone is first and foremost selfishly oriented (you, your child, your spouse, your parents, your friends, your colleagues - just everyone). And then politics and the media wouldn't play such a dominant role in our lives. We would also have a very different take on cheating and lying politicians, other people in general. As Abe always say, 100% of politics is 100% out of the vortex 100% of the time. I think they are exaggerating a bit, but seems true enough. Another thing that would make a big difference is if people would just reject being put into little thought boxes like left, right or center. And instead would just go back to their own individual core values, instead of choosing from two or three pre-arranged packages of values presented by someone else. Because very often I see people going against their own core values just because they don't allow themselves to agree with someone or accept an offer or even help from someone who has been put in the 'right' box while they consider themselves to be in the 'left' box, even though what the 'right' box person suggests would perfectly agree with the core values of the 'left' box person, if there wouldn't be any such boxes. They both would benefit, but they deny themselves that benefit because their thought boxes don't allow it. Another common situation is that people are getting along with each other quite well without ever considering their thought boxes, but then suddenly they talk about politics and realize that they actually belong to opposite thought boxes and suddenly they start arguing and become bitter enemies. That's how silly this is at times. That's why, if someone would ask me about my political beliefs, I'd just say I'm pro alignment, pro thriving and pro WIBIGO. And that can potentially be found with anyone, anytime, anywhere. I’m British, normally very good with sarcasm 🤣 missed this one! Haha! Yes totally and utterly agree on all points! I was never ever political unrtil this year but 750 facebook friends of whom 400 are probably spiritual certainly opened my eyes to both sides. I was so naive in commenting on what I saw as a ‘fear based’ media story on my fb page only to be slammed by what I now recognise as lefties. It confused the hell out of me. I had all sorts crawling out of the woodwork, and I wasn’t even attempting to be political, just trying to show people that fear lowers the immune system. It’s been a massive learning curve. I’ve certainly had my own kind of awakening this year and ultimately came back to, I am responsible for my own vibration and reality. That really is where the power is. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 3, 2020 11:49:49 GMT -5
Right, because the context was "nazi's", so I associated it with Charlottesville. In terms of what he was actually saying, my thoughts are this: the Confederacy's cause was historically unjust, but they are the only American's to have ever lost a war on their own ground, so the issue of the statues of Lee et al wasn't one I found to be all that simple. I can understand the strong feelings on both sides, but, without a cultural stake, I didn't take one. Ken Burns did a widely watched and emotionally engaging piece on the Civil War back in the early 90's, and by today's standards it would be cancelled. Back then it was considered a rather cathartic exploration relevant to how America stitched itself back together after the most brutal conflict we ever fought. IOW, it's this need for a collective identity based on a common history which causes all this trouble again. People refer back to times they've never even experienced and even quarrel about what happened and didn't happen and what's the right way to look at it. What else could go wrong? Our values keep changing. Our perspectives keep changing. What was perfectly acceptable 100 years ago and no one would have even given a thought to, can create outrage today. The opposite is also true, what created outrage 100 years ago, is perfectly acceptable today and no would give it any thought. That's how, I think, hi story (our own collective stories, really) keeps changing. Oh, no doubt. All it takes is a brief - although deep - contemplation to realize just how limited various media of memory, such as our minds, pictures, books and recordings, truly are. My guess is it takes a deeper peek down the rabbit warren for most folks to really appreciate how that applies to their own sense of reality and identity. This gets right to the heart of the question of objective reality, as well. Is there a "true story"? ..  heh heh. There is, and there isn't, for two reasons: the existential ambiguity of truth and, as you pointed out, the malleable nature of stories. The first is the failure of objectivity, the second, the failure of subjectivity. Reality, is neither objective, nor subjective, but instead, indivisible, ineffable, eternal and limitless. But, life goes on, and politics, of course, is a movement of mind and emotion, both individuated and collective, very far afield from the existential truth. Just because politics is, at best, a distraction from the existential truth doesn't mean that it doesn't sometimes impact peoples lives quite directly. So, it interests them. Along those lines and in this context, there is an objective narrative, and politics is the game of manipulating that objective narrative to influence the emotions (the subjectivity) of groups of people. There is no politician nor any "news" media innocent of this manipulation, but some manipulators distort the objective narrative more than others. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 3, 2020 11:58:36 GMT -5
My experience is that you can't persuade a strong pro-Trumper that the Dems are anything else but evil, and equally, anti-Trumpers aren't often mildly anti-Trump, they are extremely anti-Trump (I don't think Laffy is strong pro-Trump from what I see). On social media at least, I don't see many strong pro-Dems out there, and my opinion is that it's hard to see anything particularly good about Biden, except that...for the anti-Trumpers....he isn't Trump. I responded to Marianne Williamson last week on twitter. I asked her the question...for all Trump's apparent flaws, WHY Biden? (And I also told her that people would have more readily voted for her, Yang, Gabbard...or any other politician that hasn't built a long term career out of it...i.e that people are sick of career politicians). She slightly surprisingly replied to me that people should vote for Biden because Trump is absolutely destroying democracy. Her response to me then attracted hundreds of replies...both from disillusioned Dems (that don't want Trump, but find it hard to vote Biden), and of course...many Trump supporters also replied, basically pointing out that the DNC were terribly corrupt and undemocratic. As a Brit, with far less understanding of American politics than you guys, it was quite interesting to watch and learn a bit. I have no strong sense at all of who I would prefer, and I don't think it's just because I am a Brit. Somehow...I think there are bigger things going on. I was the same on Brexit....I had no strong sense of preference at all and felt there were bigger things going on, though I did strongly support the left candidate in the UK election last year (he was thoroughly beaten). Hope you're all well and thriving in these unusual times. Marianne is asleep. I realised recently. The current cultural meanings of both "woke", and "red pill" are, inherently ironic. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 3, 2020 12:11:21 GMT -5
Interesting because my perception was different. CW was very bias in his moderating and did a terrible job. I actually felt sorry at times for Trump. The whole thing was an embarrasment. Having spent months looking at all sides of the narrative, on and away from mainstream, I honestly despair, I see a far right and an intolerant far left, I trust that the universe indeed has a plan and knows what she’s doing. It is a massive call for people to look at their unconscious programmes though. Trump is a symptom and a reflection of the collective and to see such hatred against him shows me that we are a long way off on our journey to awakening. On one level, I think all of this can be a great time of awakening where old systems can collapse and make way for the New Earth. The more divide and hate I see, the more I feel we are indeed being called to raise our vibration and look within. I feel this so powerfully at the moment. Abe Hicks and other teachers are really showing us how to make change and it starts with each individual... the ripple effect. That was 100% sarcasm what I wrote there. What happened there on (inter)national TV that night was a pretty good representation of what has happened on this forum in the past. This seemed all too familiar, the double-binds ("will you declare here and now that you once and for all will stop beating your wife?"), the constant talking past each other, the tag-teaming, the giraffes, the he-said-she-said... That's why I had a totally different view on what happened there compared to Sifty. I just tried to express it in a less confrontational way, so I chose sarcasm. I'm surprised no one really noticed. Good time to finally clear that up, haha. Well, you probably know the saying, people will get the rulers they deserve. And from a LOA perspective, that makes sense. And you know what Abe say, those people (politicians) don't really matter. They just want you to think that they matter (out of pure self interest). And your (physical) votes don't really matter either. What really matters is your individual vibrational votes that you are sending out every day, when you see violence in the streets and don't like it and wish for it to stop, when you feel embarrassed about a ridiculously biased moderator in a presidential debate and wish for some true fair play, when political candidates get caught in their own lies again and again and you envision a more honest political culture, when you see one and the same fake story promoted on all channels all day everyday and you are longing for more diversity and objectivity, and so on... And that's actually been happening for decades and been gaining enormous momentum in the past few years. So what some see as chaotic times right now, where it's hard to see any direction, I see it as a time where an old system that has been more and more out of sync with the collective is slowly replaced by a new system that is more in sync with the collective. So we are in the twilight zone right now, in the middle of the tunnel. In some places, you can see already the light, in some other places there's still no light in sight. But the overall change of direction, globally, on the non-physical level, I think is a done deal.It's done. It just has to break thru into the physical. And that's where the collective path of least resistance comes into play. In some places around the world it's easier and the transition smoother, in some places it's more difficult and a much rougher ride. But no matter what the collective chooses, you as the individual always have your say in what's manifesting for you individually. The way it goes for the collective doesn't mean that's the way it goes for you as an individual. There are always individual people who thrive in times the collective would call bad times, and there are always individual people who suffer in times the collective would call good times. You see, you called Williamson asleep, which probably wouldn't be all too hard to prove, but regardless, we can't deny the fact that she throws out a lot of totally out of the box ideas, and that's actually really good in helping in this transition, no matter if she actually realizes her role or not. I think what would make the biggest difference is if people would just realize that everyone is first and foremost selfishly oriented (you, your child, your spouse, your parents, your friends, your colleagues - just everyone). And then politics and the media wouldn't play such a dominant role in our lives. We would also have a very different take on cheating and lying politicians, other people in general. As Abe always say, 100% of politics is 100% out of the vortex 100% of the time. I think they are exaggerating a bit, but seems true enough. Another thing that would make a big difference is if people would just reject being put into little thought boxes like left, right or center. And instead would just go back to their own individual core values, instead of choosing from two or three pre-arranged packages of values presented by someone else. Because very often I see people going against their own core values just because they don't allow themselves to agree with someone or accept an offer or even help from someone who has been put in the 'right' box while they consider themselves to be in the 'left' box, even though what the 'right' box person suggests would perfectly agree with the core values of the 'left' box person, if there wouldn't be any such boxes. They both would benefit, but they deny themselves that benefit because their thought boxes don't allow it. Another common situation is that people are getting along with each other quite well without ever considering their thought boxes, but then suddenly they talk about politics and realize that they actually belong to opposite thought boxes and suddenly they start arguing and become bitter enemies. That's how silly this is at times. That's why, if someone would ask me about my political beliefs, I'd just say I'm pro alignment, pro thriving and pro WIBIGO. And that can potentially be found with anyone, anytime, anywhere. Marketing, politics, hypnotism and entertainment all share a particular characteristic. When they're effective, they lead their audience deeper into a form of trance. |
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Post by andrew on Oct 3, 2020 12:37:05 GMT -5
My experience is that you can't persuade a strong pro-Trumper that the Dems are anything else but evil, and equally, anti-Trumpers aren't often mildly anti-Trump, they are extremely anti-Trump (I don't think Laffy is strong pro-Trump from what I see). On social media at least, I don't see many strong pro-Dems out there, and my opinion is that it's hard to see anything particularly good about Biden, except that...for the anti-Trumpers....he isn't Trump. I responded to Marianne Williamson last week on twitter. I asked her the question...for all Trump's apparent flaws, WHY Biden? (And I also told her that people would have more readily voted for her, Yang, Gabbard...or any other politician that hasn't built a long term career out of it...i.e that people are sick of career politicians). She slightly surprisingly replied to me that people should vote for Biden because Trump is absolutely destroying democracy. Her response to me then attracted hundreds of replies...both from disillusioned Dems (that don't want Trump, but find it hard to vote Biden), and of course...many Trump supporters also replied, basically pointing out that the DNC were terribly corrupt and undemocratic. As a Brit, with far less understanding of American politics than you guys, it was quite interesting to watch and learn a bit. I have no strong sense at all of who I would prefer, and I don't think it's just because I am a Brit. Somehow...I think there are bigger things going on. I was the same on Brexit....I had no strong sense of preference at all and felt there were bigger things going on, though I did strongly support the left candidate in the UK election last year (he was thoroughly beaten). Hope you're all well and thriving in these unusual times. Marianne is asleep. I realised recently. I don't think it's clear cut with her (or with anyone lol), but there are times when she says stuff that's undeniably true, and very powerful, and you won't find anyone else in the political sphere saying it....but in my opinion, she's now far too invested in her political party, and it's blinkering her ability to see more clearly...or objectively....than she could do otherwise. |
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Post by esponja on Oct 3, 2020 12:49:50 GMT -5
Marianne is asleep. I realised recently. I don't think it's clear cut with her (or with anyone lol), but there are times when she says stuff that's undeniably true, and very powerful, and you won't find anyone else in the political sphere saying it....but in my opinion, she's now far too invested in her political party, and it's blinkering her ability to see more clearly...or objectively....than she could do otherwise. For me an ‘awake’ person is focused and seen through all the mind games, like you guys. The ‘blinkering’ doesn’t happen, I don’t believe it even can happen. |
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Post by esponja on Oct 3, 2020 12:52:41 GMT -5
Marianne is asleep. I realised recently. The current cultural meanings of both "woke", and "red pill" are, inherently ironic. Yes, I’ve noticed the ‘woke’ meaning a few different things lately, one being believing there is a World Order intent on keeping us all asleep. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 3, 2020 13:24:29 GMT -5
The current cultural meanings of both "woke", and "red pill" are, inherently ironic. Yes, I’ve noticed the ‘woke’ meaning a few different things lately, one being believing there is a World Order intent on keeping us all asleep. There are people who benefit from entrancing others, no doubt.
And, there is this idea of a person waking up and going about their business, only to find at some point that they only dreamt their awakening, and are still asleep. I can think of two movies off the top of my head that portray this, Inception, and American Werewolf in London, but, as I recall, someone (I think, siftingtothetruth) recently pointed out how this is an ancient Hindu parable. So, there's some wisdom to this, but also, in my opinion, the potential to refuse to admit the possibility of a final awakening - to refuse to admit the possibility of a yet unseen-color, unheard-melody or a scent we've never encountered, but, instead, only heard described to us. I interpret what ZD often writes as meaning that turning attention away from thoughts or emotions about anything, and toward what we are seeing/hearing/tasting/feeling, in the moment, is the way to pursue that yet unseen color. Tolle advises to find the space between thoughts. The very meaning of 'Zen', as a verb, is to quietly meditate. It's in silence, that the unknown melody, can be found. |
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Post by andrew on Oct 3, 2020 13:42:57 GMT -5
I don't think it's clear cut with her (or with anyone lol), but there are times when she says stuff that's undeniably true, and very powerful, and you won't find anyone else in the political sphere saying it....but in my opinion, she's now far too invested in her political party, and it's blinkering her ability to see more clearly...or objectively....than she could do otherwise. For me an ‘awake’ person is focused and seen through all the mind games, like you guys. The ‘blinkering’ doesn’t happen, I don’t believe it even can happen. Ahhh because we were discussing politics, I thought you meant 'asleep' more in the political sense of the word. Like qanons consider themselves 'awake' (but not in the sense we mean it here). To add to the confusion, progressives also consider themselves 'awake'. I can't really comment on whether she is 'awake' in the sense we mean it here. But out of curiosity, why do you think she isn't? |
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Post by esponja on Oct 3, 2020 14:04:25 GMT -5
For me an ‘awake’ person is focused and seen through all the mind games, like you guys. The ‘blinkering’ doesn’t happen, I don’t believe it even can happen. Ahhh because we were discussing politics, I thought you meant 'asleep' more in the political sense of the word. Like qanons consider themselves 'awake' (but not in the sense we mean it here). To add to the confusion, progressives also consider themselves 'awake'. I can't really comment on whether she is 'awake' in the sense we mean it here. But out of curiosity, why do you think she isn't? Ohhh..haha yes important to clarify. It’s the way she speaks. She is very attached to her story, ego mind. I guess I can’t see someone who is so political as ‘awake’. Her views are not ‘whole’. Her hatred of Trump bothers me when she preaches forgiveness. Am in agreement with Reefs on all this political stuff and that is what I consider far more ‘awake’. |
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Post by andrew on Oct 3, 2020 14:59:23 GMT -5
Ahhh because we were discussing politics, I thought you meant 'asleep' more in the political sense of the word. Like qanons consider themselves 'awake' (but not in the sense we mean it here). To add to the confusion, progressives also consider themselves 'awake'. I can't really comment on whether she is 'awake' in the sense we mean it here. But out of curiosity, why do you think she isn't? Ohhh..haha yes important to clarify. It’s the way she speaks. She is very attached to her story, ego mind. I guess I can’t see someone who is so political as ‘awake’. Her views are not ‘whole’. Her hatred of Trump bothers me when she preaches forgiveness. Am in agreement with Reefs on all this political stuff and that is what I consider far more ‘awake’. yeah thanks for clarifying. I feel like getting involved in politics, was at least in part, an ego thing.....then again, I don't necessarily think a total absence of ego necessarily equates to 'being awake' (in the sense we mean it here), so I'm happy to sit on the fence in that regard. But I do think she's seeing Trump with the eyes of someone that's in too deep with the Dems. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Oct 3, 2020 18:36:02 GMT -5
Along those lines and in this context, there is an objective narrative, and politics is the game of manipulating that objective narrative to influence the emotions (the subjectivity) of groups of people. There is no politician nor any "news" media innocent of this manipulation, but some manipulators distort the objective narrative more than others. So, I marvel at the timing of DJT's "illness", and how it's sucking all the attention - and airtime - away from the upcoming supreme court fight. What a fascinating play cast of characters and turn of events we have going on here. |
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heh heh. 
