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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 15:05:51 GMT -5
Yet there is also a personal aspect which is also totally free. Isn't that amazing? Yes, and it's utterly fantastic! ha ha  |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 15:07:33 GMT -5
PURE NONSENSE because it's just speculation, while you can't know whether individual is real or figment how could you make such a conclusion. You are talking Pure nonsense, if you just stop advising others and try to look for yourself then you could find what nonsense you are talking here, but I know you never do because you are coming here to advice other and you never look or read what others say. I responded to Wholla because he's open-minded. He's interested in something that lies beyond the intellect, and if he keeps searching, I suspect that he'll find it. Some people want to know the truth in their heads, but some people want to know the truth in their bones. I'm interested in the ones who want to know it in their bones. The skull is a bone! |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 15:09:38 GMT -5
I agree. There is only what appears in consciousness. But there can be an expressed understanding of it because we have a personal aspect. What's the problem. When you agree this, you can't make nonsense and stupid conclusion like "What you are looks out of the eyes of every living thing" because this statement assumes that other individual exists but ultimately you can't know. So Zendancer as usual made a nonsense conclusion, he doesn't even know the meaning of consciousness, that' what when I say to him consciousness reads these letters, he wouldn't reply to me, because he is ignorant of the terms,that's what my foremost intention to raise that question to him, when he knows the truth that he made a stupid conclusion he wouldn't continue, that's the zendancer technique.  No, the statement isn't based on that assumption. It's not a conclusion of the intellect, and neither is it the product of intuition. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 15:10:19 GMT -5
Yes, and it's utterly fantastic! ha ha fantastic can also mean imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality.  |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 15:12:58 GMT -5
If you read the poetic exposition of the nature of reality as expressed by human sages in the Upanishads you would think that is nonsense too. Who cares what you think? We are not talking about belief here, we are talking about certainty, what can be known for certain? you know you exist and you know everything is appearing to you, you can't know anything beyond that, other individual is a figment or read can't be known ultimately, So deriving conclusion or assuming from wrong place doesn't work out here. We need to carefully look rather than simply deriving imaginary conclusion in the way zendancer does. Nothing of intellect can be known for certain, but on the other hand, even the most sincere and open not knowing also has limits. Ultimately, there is an absolute certainty, but it is non conceptual, and as such has no direct expression with language. |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 15:16:43 GMT -5
fantastic can also mean imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality. For a person identified with what changes, imagination of what ZD and squatch' were bantering on is all that's available. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 15:24:10 GMT -5
fantastic can also mean imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality. For a person identified with what changes, imagination of what ZD and squatch' were bantering on is all that's available. ok, sure, whatever  (I hadn't planned on asking ZD which definition he intended, so your comment served as a surrogate. hehe) |
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Post by laughter on May 13, 2015 15:25:56 GMT -5
For a person identified with what changes, imagination of what ZD and squatch' were bantering on is all that's available. ok, sure, whatever (I hadn't planned on asking ZD which definition he intended, so your comment served as a surrogate. hehe) |
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2015 21:42:20 GMT -5
I was thinking that perhaps instead of seeking certainty that "I" am all of reality, the desired result might be better accomplished by not having certainty that "I" am my physical body. Unfortunately, since my seeing/hearing "perspective" is surrounded by a bag of skin that is touch-sensitive, that creates a pretty powerful feeling of "me" being "inside" the physical body. I will have to think about this. In my view, it is the right approach, though it is not thinking that will help you see through the illusion of identification. There is a depth of mind, as there is a depth of heart. Nether is the common way for man, and yet it is in his nature to live and think and feel with with this depth that is not his own to claim. There is a power in silence that the person fears. So many illusions, nurtured and protected for so long. Sometimes, it takes a bit of courage to stand face to face with the unknown, and know it to be one's own Self. |
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2015 21:45:36 GMT -5
I was thinking that perhaps instead of seeking certainty that "I" am all of reality, the desired result might be better accomplished by not having certainty that "I" am my physical body. Unfortunately, since my seeing/hearing "perspective" is surrounded by a bag of skin that is touch-sensitive, that creates a pretty powerful feeling of "me" being "inside" the physical body. I will have to think about this. I understand that i am all of reality, experiencing myself through this unique presence we call a body.. i have created this unique presence as an independent version of myself, such that there is authenticity is my self exploration, such that 'i' can't rig the exploration in favor of my preferences, i experience myself authentically.. You're safe. You can't 'rig' the exploration because your essence does not have a mind. As you say, you experience yourself through this unique presence, and not by any other means. |
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Post by enigma on May 13, 2015 22:11:25 GMT -5
Today I took a walk, and thought about how I am not separable from reality. I did some experiments controlling my thoughts, trying to be aware of the process. I could say, "I will think of a color.", then I would choose "Blue". I felt there was an "I" that chose the "Blue" after thinking of the color, since my next thought was not "Grape-fruit." There was a logical continuation of thought that implied a thinker and doer. Why I choose to pick a color, as opposed to say, a favorite song, I cannot say. So my initial thought may have been more outside my conscious control. Since I thought these thoughts in English, that implies there is some dependency on learned behavior. I'm not sure what that means. Thinking on the subject of my lack of separation from reality, I tried to consider the implications of that. I can understand that "I" am reality on an intellectual level. I am beginning to understand in my heart, which is probably I came to this forum. I do not understand this in my bones. For me there seems to be three levels of understanding, intellectual, heart, and bones. If I understand something in my bones, I know it without thinking about it. I would say I know that I am not separate from reality "in my bones", but my sense of being reality is mostly intellectual, though now in my heart a little. I find myself going a little beyond the intellectual, thinking "You know, I probably really am reality itself". I've been reading here and in books about there is no doer, nothing be done, and nothing having anything done to it (subject,object,doing I guess). This feels untrue. If I am reality, then I can see how there is no doer, when I go for a walk, the universe is going for a walk. But I still see something being done, there is still activity. Legs are still being instructed to walk. If I say, "There cannot be something being done if there is no doer",it doesn't ring true. Likewise, if I say, there is no object being acted on, it also doesn't feel right. The closest I can come to understanding that is, there is nothing that needs to be done in order to be what you have always been, so the realization of that cannot lie at the end of some doing path in which something needs to be accomplished or altered. What you seek is always closer than close. It is that which you seek that goes off on the search. In a way, it's quite amusing. In another, not so much. Of course there are things being done. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 22:33:42 GMT -5
In my view, it is the right approach, though it is not thinking that will help you see through the illusion of identification. There is a depth of mind, as there is a depth of heart. Nether is the common way for man, and yet it is in his nature to live and think and feel with with this depth that is not his own to claim. There is a power in silence that the person fears. So many illusions, nurtured and protected for so long. Sometimes, it takes a bit of courage to stand face to face with the unknown, and know it to be one's own Self. I deleted a big post I wrote, that was based on a misreading of your first line. I read "it is not thinking that will help you", as "I don't think it will help you", so the post built up to the big question of what you thought would help me, lol. Don't make the mistake of trying to intellectually deny that there appears to be a doer doing something. That will just give the mind more stuff to play with. You just need to connect with the silence or source from which the apparent doer arises. Become intimate with that and let the doing take care of itself. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 23:02:00 GMT -5
Have you ever seen integrated movement of life? What's your experience? How do you know freewill is illusion? If I give your mind answers it will formulate new questions, then it will require more answers so that it can formulate even more new questions. Stop following thought around like a puppy dog and get in touch with the presence right now that you keep overlooking. oh is it ? Thanks. First of all try to understand what is consciousness,mind,thought, So you could come to the common ground which people are discussing here, So that any one can continue discussion with you, you see you would surely blabber something when we ask some question, so It left the people no way to continue argue with you, Even right now, no one can understand what's your model, You and Tzu never have a common ground or you people don't understand what people are speaking here, For an example, take pilgrims who is understanding everything but he denying the idea, ofcourse this is the different case, but you and Tzu don't even understand what people are speaking here. Did you understand why sca says 'I agree with you'? I am pretty sure you haven't understood because you don't even understand what's going on here. Did you notice that why I have opposed zendancer? at which point? I am also sure even if you read you couldn't have understood, because you are not in common ground you and Tzu doesn't even have the common ground to argue here. This is not intend to hurt you but to tell youto get to the common ground quickly, I know the difficulty of that, So I give a way, Enigma is having one beautiful website 'http://www.realizinghappiness.com/', Just read and carefully get the word usage like what he says about mind,awareness,Consciousness, this would benefit you a lot. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 23:15:48 GMT -5
If I give your mind answers it will formulate new questions, then it will require more answers so that it can formulate even more new questions. Stop following thought around like a puppy dog and get in touch with the presence right now that you keep overlooking. oh is it ? Thanks. First of all try to understand what is consciousness,mind,thought, So you could come to the common ground which people are discussing here, So that any one can continue discussion with you, you see you would surely blabber something when we ask some question, so It left the people no way to continue argue with you, Even right now, no one can understand what's your model, You and Tzu never have a common ground or you people don't understand what people are speaking here, For an example, take pilgrims who is understanding everything but he denying the idea, ofcourse this is the different case, but you and Tzu don't even understand what people are speaking here. Did you understand why sca says 'I agree with you'? I am pretty sure you haven't understood because you don't even understand what's going on here. Did you notice that why I have opposed zendancer? at which point? I am also sure even if you read you couldn't have understood, because you are not in common ground you and Tzu doesn't even have the common ground to argue here. This is not intend to hurt you but to tell youto get to the common ground quickly, I know the difficulty of that, So I give a way, Enigma is having one beautiful website 'http://www.realizinghappiness.com/', Just read and carefully get the word usage like what he says about mind,awareness,Consciousness, this would benefit you a lot. Gopal, help me understand this. You say everything is an appearance in consciousness. I agree. You say perceiver is same as perceived. I agree. You seem to agree with Enigma. So what is your disagreement with ZD. |
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Post by enigma on May 14, 2015 0:20:40 GMT -5
You're safe. You can't 'rig' the exploration because your essence does not have a mind. As you say, you experience yourself through this unique presence, and not by any other means. Is this like saying that the whole universe is aware, but not thinking? And thinking, feeling, self-awareness, are all essentially an awareness of say physiological states? It sounds like we are on an airplane, and go up to the penispit, and find it completely empty. Co.ckpit, for those who don't know what a penispit is. We could say the universe is aware, and thinking only through the individuation. My point to Tzu being that this unique presence has not been created to be independent so as to provide for authenticity in the expression, as the essence from which it is created has no preferences, no thoughts or feelings that might counter that authenticity. This is what the individual expression is for, and it cannot help but be authentic. This expression is not separate from that which is expressing, and so it's not that the individuals are on autopilot, but rather they move as one by default and therefore have no need of guidance. Perfection is a problematic term, and yet it applies here. |
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