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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 21, 2022 12:35:54 GMT -5
Well, I've never gotten to that ultimate state of pure objectless awareness. For me it's always been a matter of degree. But I do go pretty deep. The feeling of contact of my feet on the ground and of my body with the bench become quite remote, and sounds and the feeling of the breeze seem oddly both accentuated, but as if they're coming from down a long hallway. The time for that varies but can be as fast as half a minute. That's exactly the state I was asking people. This is the state I was talking about. So can you please tell me how long it will take for you to attain such a state? It looks like you sit in the chair while you meditate so the description that you said makes more sense to me laughter. Thanks. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 21, 2022 17:30:03 GMT -5
Well, I've never gotten to that ultimate state of pure objectless awareness. For me it's always been a matter of degree. But I do go pretty deep. The feeling of contact of my feet on the ground and of my body with the bench become quite remote, and sounds and the feeling of the breeze seem oddly both accentuated, but as if they're coming from down a long hallway. The time for that varies but can be as fast as half a minute. That's exactly the state I was asking people. This is the state I was talking about. So can you please tell me how long it will take for you to attain such a state? It looks like you sit in the chair while you meditate so the description that you said makes more sense to me laughter. Thanks. Sometimes quite fast. It all depends on how busy my mind is or if there's some preoccupation of mind underneath the surface, and even when it starts fast, like under a minute, it can deepen over time. And as I admit, I can tell from the descriptions I've read of deeper states from ZD and others that those states are possible, but I haven't reached them. I'm just a dabbler.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 17:34:51 GMT -5
That's exactly the state I was asking people. This is the state I was talking about. So can you please tell me how long it will take for you to attain such a state? It looks like you sit in the chair while you meditate so the description that you said makes more sense to me laughter. Thanks. Sometimes quite fast. It all depends on how busy my mind is or if there's some preoccupation of mind underneath the surface, and even when it starts fast, like under a minute, it can deepen over time. And as I admit, I can tell from the descriptions I've read of deeper states from ZD and others that those states are possible, but I haven't reached them. I'm just a dabbler. I am not interested in the deep state that they have been talking about, I am interested in the state that you have talked about in your previous comment. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 22, 2022 4:18:53 GMT -5
Sometimes quite fast. It all depends on how busy my mind is or if there's some preoccupation of mind underneath the surface, and even when it starts fast, like under a minute, it can deepen over time. And as I admit, I can tell from the descriptions I've read of deeper states from ZD and others that those states are possible, but I haven't reached them. I'm just a dabbler. I am not interested in the deep state that they have been talking about, I am interested in the state that you have talked about in your previous comment. Would you like me to explain what I do to get into that state? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 4:58:04 GMT -5
I am not interested in the deep state that they have been talking about, I am interested in the state that you have talked about in your previous comment. Would you like me to explain what I do to get into that state? Yes sure. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 22, 2022 5:45:32 GMT -5
Would you like me to explain what I do to get into that state? Yes sure. Ok.  This meditation is about looking inward, quieting the mind, getting present to feelings and thoughts. I find it easier to do after some physical exertion. I used to do it after running. Sit quietly with your eyes closed. Set the intention to be present to the sensations of your body during the meditation so that you don't become disintegrated between body and mind. Place the forefront of attention on what you are thinking and feeling in that moment. As each thought arises, notice that there is some sort of interest at the root of that thought. Don't pursue that interest, because it is the pursuit of that interest that is the natural driver of your typical discursive thought stream, for example: you are interested in if it is windy or going to rain and you remember that monsoon season approaches and that leads you to think about how you need to get a new roof or some outside party with guests that your wife is planning and then you think about how you have to get her a gift for your upcoming anniversary .. this is the way one thought naturally leads to another. Attention is driven by interest which leads to a thought, which leads to a new interest which causes attention to wander from the original interest by setting the stage for the next thought. So instead, just hold the thought at arms length. You might even ask .. "is this thought true?" .. but that's better left for a time when the mind is quieter, and if you're doing this right the process of thinking will at least slow down. Form the intention to consider each thought as a cloud in the sky of your mind. Just give the thought time to either sail on through or to be dissipated by the Sun of your minds attention. What will happen is that you will start to relax. The impulse to stand up or to expect anything out of the meditation will become less likely, and at this point you can also relax each of the intentions you've set to get to this point, and awareness will be of awareness itself. It's almost inevitable that at some point, without you even noticing it as it happens, that you will fall back into a stream of thought. Simply notice and acknowledge when this happens and re-form the original intentions. Be gentle with yourself in those moments, as there is no way to fail yourself in this endeavor.  The body awareness aspect of this involves your breath, your pulse, your points of contact with the floor and the chair, and how you feel. At neutral, you can get present to a sort of hum, or tingling, of your inner body. If you're in some sort of pain that can be a distraction, but this meditation has the potential to have an effect very similar to sleep. In fact, if you get into the deeper states you'll be unsteady when you finish and stand up and start walking - that's actually something you'll want to account for as well.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 7:07:40 GMT -5
Ok. This meditation is about looking inward, quieting the mind, getting present to feelings and thoughts. I find it easier to do after some physical exertion. I used to do it after running. Sit quietly with your eyes closed. Set the intention to be present to the sensations of your body during the meditation so that you don't become disintegrated between body and mind. Place the forefront of attention on what you are thinking and feeling in that moment. As each thought arises, notice that there is some sort of interest at the root of that thought. Don't pursue that interest, because it is the pursuit of that interest that is the natural driver of your typical discursive thought stream, for example: you are interested in if it is windy or going to rain and you remember that monsoon season approaches and that leads you to think about how you need to get a new roof or some outside party with guests that your wife is planning and then you think about how you have to get her a gift for your upcoming anniversary .. this is the way one thought naturally leads to another. Attention is driven by interest which leads to a thought, which leads to a new interest which causes attention to wander from the original interest by setting the stage for the next thought. So instead, just hold the thought at arms length. You might even ask .. "is this thought true?" .. but that's better left for a time when the mind is quieter, and if you're doing this right the process of thinking will at least slow down. Form the intention to consider each thought as a cloud in the sky of your mind. Just give the thought time to either sail on through or to be dissipated by the Sun of your minds attention. What will happen is that you will start to relax. The impulse to stand up or to expect anything out of the meditation will become less likely, and at this point you can also relax each of the intentions you've set to get to this point, and awareness will be of awareness itself. It's almost inevitable that at some point, without you even noticing it as it happens, that you will fall back into a stream of thought. Simply notice and acknowledge when this happens and re-form the original intentions. Be gentle with yourself in those moments, as there is no way to fail yourself in this endeavor. The body awareness aspect of this involves your breath, your pulse, your points of contact with the floor and the chair, and how you feel. At neutral, you can get present to a sort of hum, or tingling, of your inner body. If you're in some sort of pain that can be a distraction, but this meditation has the potential to have an effect very similar to sleep. In fact, if you get into the deeper states you'll be unsteady when you finish and stand up and start walking - that's actually something you'll want to account for as well. Thanks Laughter. |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 22, 2022 10:10:53 GMT -5
Here is the basic formal Zen methodology for going deep. Z can expand on this.
1. Sit in a lotus or half lotus position with an erect posture (so that neck or back pain doesn't become a disturbance).
2. Hold the hands in a cosmic mudra position with the tips of the thumbs barely touching
3. Direct the eyes downward at about a 45 degree angle toward the floor and half close the eyes
4. Place the tongue against the inside of the upper row of teeth
5. Relax and exhale more than the usual amount of air from the lungs (called the "residual air")
6. Use diaphragmatic breathing rather than chest breathing because that reduces proprioceptive feedback and intensifies attentiveness
7. Breathe more slowly than usual and on each out breath expel more air than usual
8. Shift attention away from thoughts to the breathing process and focus intensively upon each inbreath and outbreath (feel how air enters the body and leaves the body)
With intense concentration a feeling of coolness will commence, and breathing will seem to slow down so much that it almost seems to stop. If concentration is continued, thoughts will gradually cease, and there will be a sense of everything coalescing into a state of unity. Other somatic phenomena may also occur including "the off sensation"--a feeling of skin-surface numbness that may spread up the arms to the shoulders and head until it feels as if the body is solidifying into a block of ice. At a certain point that I refer to as "the event horizon" everything will begin to disappear until there is no longer any body consciousness, no perceptions, and no thoughts. Zen people call this "absolute samadhi" and Hindus call it "nirvikalpa samadhi." Zen people also call it "the falling off of body and mind." Pure awareness without content is all that will remain, and that state is extremely blissful. My speculation is that NS loosens up the mind in some way because many Zen people report CC's following deep states of NS.
At one point I experimented with NS, and discovered that I could enter that state while sitting in an easy chair with my eyes closed and with my fingers interlocked in a comfortable way (rather than in a cosmic mudra position). I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that anyone who can intensely focus his/her attention can probably learn to enter NS.
Satch probably has more experience with NS than anyone else on this forum, so he can add his two cents to this basic info.
FWIW, the primary form of meditation that Soto Zen people use is called "shikan taza," and Z can describe that style of meditation. It's a bit different than other styles of meditation because there is no focus on any particular thing. It's best described from my POV as simply becoming highly attentive and alert with no other focus than that.
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Post by laughter on Jun 22, 2022 11:06:40 GMT -5
Ok. This meditation is about looking inward, quieting the mind, getting present to feelings and thoughts. I find it easier to do after some physical exertion. I used to do it after running. Sit quietly with your eyes closed. Set the intention to be present to the sensations of your body during the meditation so that you don't become disintegrated between body and mind. Place the forefront of attention on what you are thinking and feeling in that moment. As each thought arises, notice that there is some sort of interest at the root of that thought. Don't pursue that interest, because it is the pursuit of that interest that is the natural driver of your typical discursive thought stream, for example: you are interested in if it is windy or going to rain and you remember that monsoon season approaches and that leads you to think about how you need to get a new roof or some outside party with guests that your wife is planning and then you think about how you have to get her a gift for your upcoming anniversary .. this is the way one thought naturally leads to another. Attention is driven by interest which leads to a thought, which leads to a new interest which causes attention to wander from the original interest by setting the stage for the next thought. So instead, just hold the thought at arms length. You might even ask .. "is this thought true?" .. but that's better left for a time when the mind is quieter, and if you're doing this right the process of thinking will at least slow down. Form the intention to consider each thought as a cloud in the sky of your mind. Just give the thought time to either sail on through or to be dissipated by the Sun of your minds attention. What will happen is that you will start to relax. The impulse to stand up or to expect anything out of the meditation will become less likely, and at this point you can also relax each of the intentions you've set to get to this point, and awareness will be of awareness itself. It's almost inevitable that at some point, without you even noticing it as it happens, that you will fall back into a stream of thought. Simply notice and acknowledge when this happens and re-form the original intentions. Be gentle with yourself in those moments, as there is no way to fail yourself in this endeavor. The body awareness aspect of this involves your breath, your pulse, your points of contact with the floor and the chair, and how you feel. At neutral, you can get present to a sort of hum, or tingling, of your inner body. If you're in some sort of pain that can be a distraction, but this meditation has the potential to have an effect very similar to sleep. In fact, if you get into the deeper states you'll be unsteady when you finish and stand up and start walking - that's actually something you'll want to account for as well. Thanks Laughter. My pleasure guy. Please come back at let us know what happened if you dot it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2022 12:56:36 GMT -5
My pleasure guy. Please come back at let us know what happened if you dot it. The state you have described above I reached many times but I do meditation very rarely. But everytime it takes me 15 mins to lose my body consciousness. I like that state, so sometimes I do that to have that body less state. But I don't do any procedure like you described above, I simply bring back my attention to the back of my eyelids. What happens is, soon after I do it, focus to the present moment is self sustained which means I don't have to exercise to bring back my focus because thoughts comes very rarely. I always ends my meditation after 15 mins because I don't want to go any deeper. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2022 21:15:30 GMT -5
My pleasure guy. Please come back at let us know what happened if you dot it. The state you have described above I reached many times but I do meditation very rarely. But everytime it takes me 15 mins to lose my body consciousness. I like that state, so sometimes I do that to have that body less state. But I don't do any procedure like you described above, I simply bring back my attention to the back of my eyelids. What happens is, soon after I do it, focus to the present moment is self sustained which means I don't have to exercise to bring back my focus because thoughts comes very rarely. I always ends my meditation after 15 mins because I don't want to go any deeper. Why don't you want to go any deeper? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2022 21:19:05 GMT -5
At neutral, you can get present to a sort of hum, or tingling, of your inner body. If you're in some sort of pain that can be a distraction, but this meditation has the potential to have an effect very similar to sleep. Similar to sleep but wide awake right? In TM terms this is called restful alertness. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 24, 2022 7:04:02 GMT -5
At neutral, you can get present to a sort of hum, or tingling, of your inner body. If you're in some sort of pain that can be a distraction, but this meditation has the potential to have an effect very similar to sleep. Similar to sleep but wide awake right? In TM terms this is called restful alertness. Yes, that seems an apt description to me. Never got to the depths of nirvikalpa, but there are matters of degree to this "restful altertness", and I've found it can have healing effects and also can disrupt the circadian rhythm because of a decreased need for sleep. |
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Post by lolly on Jun 30, 2022 23:36:48 GMT -5
Losing body awareness is more like not paying attention to it, but you're always connected - it just feels a lot subtler than usual. You are aware of it, albeit not-consciously, because if someone shakes your body it 'brings you back'. I think it's best to remain aware of the body-feelings while in a subtle state of mind and maybe enjoy oblivion for a little while and resume body-feeling after a bit. It doesn't actually make the mind any 'shallower'.
Another thing I think is relevant with thoughts is, usually when you have things which remain undone, the mind will tend to obsess about them more. Having your life-tasks in order makes you mentally free. Then, if you are sitting there and the thoughts are running, they don't actually disturb your peace of mind (actually, nothing ever disturbs It). Peace of mind is disturbed by mind's own reaction, like laffy says, lusting after the thoughts or out of aversions toward them, trying to make them stop. The 'cloud method' is a way of just letting them blow by as they are wont to do, and as one of my teachers told me once, 'never try to stop a thought'. You don't try to make them happen and you don't try to make them stop. My approach is, since they are imaginary, I don't worry about it at all. I pay attention to real-lived-experience like the way my body actually feels, and just know, 'this is what it's like'
If we hear about an oblivious space which we are told is (some special Indian word), then we start to desire it, and from desire, we 'try to make it happen', and we could succeed in that given a special method, but at the same time we don't get to the core of equanimity, so when people discuss special states, notice temptation arise with yearnings, and understand, 'this is craving'.
As Laffy mentioned, if there is pain it is distracting, but only because of reacting adversely toward it. That's a hard one, but it's also really good for practice. We really only want to develop perfection in equanimity, the stable balanced mind as the roller coaster does its ups and downs, from special state to mundane state. Remaining still minded is the practice. Everything else is consequential. Hence, all experience, no matter how mundane or elating, is only a reminder of your equanimity. If there is a long chain of thought, just leave it follow its own process and at some point it ends. If there are feelings of any kind - pleasant, unpleasant, mundane or elating like those tingles - let it be as it is.
Some say 'just sit' but I think that means don't try to make something happen or stop anything from happening. That volition to 'make it as you want it to be' is coming from the reactions that disrupt the peace of mind - and equanimity is not doing that.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 1, 2022 6:15:21 GMT -5
Losing body awareness is more like not paying attention to it, but you're always connected - it just feels a lot subtler than usual. You are aware of it, albeit not-consciously, because if someone shakes your body it 'brings you back'. I think it's best to remain aware of the body-feelings while in a subtle state of mind and maybe enjoy oblivion for a little while and resume body-feeling after a bit. It doesn't actually make the mind any 'shallower'. Another thing I think is relevant with thoughts is, usually when you have things which remain undone, the mind will tend to obsess about them more. Having your life-tasks in order makes you mentally free. Then, if you are sitting there and the thoughts are running, they don't actually disturb your peace of mind (actually, nothing ever disturbs It). Peace of mind is disturbed by mind's own reaction, like laffy says, lusting after the thoughts or out of aversions toward them, trying to make them stop. The 'cloud method' is a way of just letting them blow by as they are wont to do, and as one of my teachers told me once, 'never try to stop a thought'. You don't try to make them happen and you don't try to make them stop. My approach is, since they are imaginary, I don't worry about it at all. I pay attention to real-lived-experience like the way my body actually feels, and just know, 'this is what it's like' If we hear about an oblivious space which we are told is (some special Indian word), then we start to desire it, and from desire, we 'try to make it happen', and we could succeed in that given a special method, but at the same time we don't get to the core of equanimity, so when people discuss special states, notice temptation arise with yearnings, and understand, 'this is craving'. As Laffy mentioned, if there is pain it is distracting, but only because of reacting adversely toward it. That's a hard one, but it's also really good for practice. We really only want to develop perfection in equanimity, the stable balanced mind as the roller coaster does its ups and downs, from special state to mundane state. Remaining still minded is the practice. Everything else is consequential. Hence, all experience, no matter how mundane or elating, is only a reminder of your equanimity. If there is a long chain of thought, just leave it follow its own process and at some point it ends. If there are feelings of any kind - pleasant, unpleasant, mundane or elating like those tingles - let it be as it is. Some say 'just sit' but I think that means don't try to make something happen or stop anything from happening. That volition to 'make it as you want it to be' is coming from the reactions that disrupt the peace of mind - and equanimity is not doing that. . |
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